Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Starmill]

SNCF Voyageurs having secured pretty far ranging rights in Italy and Spain, plus the expansion of the Ouigo brand, probably gives them a tad more latitude on losses within France and other captive markets. They are in a pretty strong position now for the next few years regardless of the loss of their monopoly rent on Eurostar.

Also, look at Eurostar London's utterly outrageous prices. They are massively out of step with domestic French TGV prices on comparable routes, even if you add a premium for Tunnel charges and border control and security. They have many years of notice of the new entrant, and are being very successful at pushing up the price level well in advance. This gives them much more headroom to drop prices back down as soon as the new services starts to defend their market share.

 

[Austriantrain]

SNCF Voyageurs having secured pretty far ranging rights in Italy and Spain, plus the expansion of the Ouigo brand, probably gives them a tad more latitude on losses within France and other captive markets. They are in a pretty strong position now for the next few years regardless of the loss of their monopoly rent on Eurostar.

Is Italy agreed now? They seemed to have trouble there getting paths, including an investigation by the competition authority.

And I recently read that Spanish third-party TOCs are having trouble actually earning money.

 

[Harlequinuk]

A question for the experts:

What is stopping a dual mode loco (aka FLX Drive, ac , dc and battery) from using the tunnel?

 

[popeter45]

A question for the experts:

What is stopping a dual mode loco (aka FLX Drive, ac , dc and battery) from using the tunnel?

batteries may have issues with fire regulations but dual AC/DC already do in the form of the class 92 that can run on third rail (but dont use it anymore really)

 

[TheWierdOne]

A question for the experts:

What is stopping a dual mode loco (aka FLX Drive, ac , dc and battery) from using the tunnel?

Regulatory questions aside, why would you need to use a dual-mode loco other than dual voltage (3rd rail and OHLE)? The rail network in the immediate vicinity of the tunnel at both ends are fairly well electrified.

 

[StephenHunter]

Regulatory questions aside, why would you need to use a dual-mode loco other than dual voltage (3rd rail and OHLE)? The rail network in the immediate vicinity of the tunnel at both ends are fairly well electrified.

In freight yards, where overhead wire or third rail isn't necessarily a safe option. See the MLVs under BR.

 

[frankmoh]

In freight yards, where overhead wire or third rail isn't necessarily a safe option. See the MLVs under BR.

Those were built for unelectrified boat train stations, not freight yards. (although I don't doubt their use as a shunter somewhere)

 

[zwk500]

In freight yards, where overhead wire or third rail isn't necessarily a safe option. See the MLVs under BR.

Dollands Moor, Wembley European Freight Operating Centre, and Ripple Lane Exchange sidings are all electrified with 25KV AC OLE. As are the classic line yard at Coquelles.

 

[StephenHunter]

Dollands Moor, Wembley European Freight Operating Centre, and Ripple Lane Exchange sidings are all electrified with 25KV AC OLE. As are the classic line yard at Coquelles.

Thames Gateway isn't wired at all. The only part of Essex Thameside/c2c that isn't.

 

[Cach17]

Thames Gateway isn't wired at all. The only part of Essex Thameside/c2c that isn't.

London Gateway (as it's properly named) is nowhere near HS1 though, let alone the Chunnel.

 

[zwk500]

Thames Gateway isn't wired at all. The only part of Essex Thameside/c2c that isn't.

But why would you run trains between the Channel tunnel and a Thames estuary port? The point of channel tunnel freight would be to import or export goods from Britain.

 

[StephenHunter]

But why would you run trains between the Channel tunnel and a Thames estuary port? The point of channel tunnel freight would be to import or export goods from Britain.

To get the goods from Tilbury to a destination in Europe? The ship might not be calling anywhere nearer.

 

[BRX]

To get the goods from Tilbury to a destination in Europe? The ship might not be calling anywhere nearer.

Is there any precedent for this happening - incoming goods to a UK port being taken onwards by rail through the channel tunnel? As far as I know there isn't.

 

[Harlequinuk]

The reason i asked the question; A battery version of a Class 99 (with the 2 MWh version of the flx drive or even the heavy haul 7 MWh if theres room?) , as a replacement for the 92. 3rd rail for the 92 is limited to pretty much 1 route, even now 30 years later , as route proving hasnt been wanted since then. And yes Desiros now run in the south which draw the same if not more than a 92. Reading some of the wabtec papers, the flx drive could use 3rd rail to charge the battery

 

[zwk500]

To get the goods from Tilbury to a destination in Europe? The ship might not be calling anywhere nearer.

Then the goods would be loaded onto a different ship that was bound for Europe.

 

[JamesT]

Then the goods would be loaded onto a different ship that was bound for Europe.

I would be very surprised to find if there were significant numbers of container ships from Asia calling at UK ports in the South-East which didn’t also then call somewhere like Antwerp, Rotterdam, Hamburg. Or perhaps even several of them.

 

[zwk500]

I would be very surprised to find if there were significant numbers of container ships from Asia calling at UK ports in the South-East which didn’t also then call somewhere like Antwerp, Rotterdam, Hamburg. Or perhaps even several of them.

As would I, but I was responding to @StephenHunter's hypothetical.

 

[TheGrew]

Honestly, I imagine post-Brexit that transferring goods through the UK would be a pain in terms of paperwork. There is a reason, after all, that there are now several new Ireland-Europe direct ferries that bypass the UK.

 

[Kingston Flyer]

Is Italy agreed now? They seemed to have trouble there getting paths, including an investigation by the competition authority.

And I recently read that Spanish third-party TOCs are having trouble actually earning money.

 

[Snow1964]

Trenitalia has signed a 35 year deal for a €80m depot near Paris, once fully operational will be able to hold 25 trains

Article mentions could be used to support proposed service to London.

Trenitalia France has signed a 35-year lease with SNCF Réseau for a rail site at Maisons-Alfort Pompadour, southeast of Paris, where it will build a high-speed train maintenance centre.

The facility will maintain Trenitalia’s Frecciarossa high-speed fleet operating in France and will also support planned Paris–London services via the Channel Tunnel. The depot is intended to strengthen the operator’s fleet management and maintenance capacity in the French market.

The site will operate 24 hours a day and include three tracks equipped for the simultaneous maintenance of three trains. It will also feature dedicated installations for train washing, cleaning and stabling. Once fully operational, the depot will be able to accommodate up to 25 trains.

The project is part of FS Italiane Group’s industrial plan to expand its presence on European high-speed corridors. Trenitalia France, the group’s French subsidiary, currently operates Frecciarossa services between Paris, Lyon and Milan.

Construction and operation of the Maisons-Alfort facility are expected to generate around 100 direct and indirect jobs, including roles linked to maintenance and operational support services.

Trenitalia leases a Paris depot for 35 years | RAILMARKET.com

With planned commissioning in 2029, Trenitalia France leased a depot from SNCF Réseau at rail site Maisons-Alfort Pompadour.

railmarket.com

 

[Schweir]

Will Eurostar ever sell direct tickets from Brussels to Rotterdam / Amsterdam on their blue trains (ex London)? Why do they not sell them currently?

 

[Trainbike46]

Will Eurostar ever sell direct tickets from Brussels to Rotterdam / Amsterdam on their blue trains (ex London)? Why do they not sell them currently?

They sell Lille-Rotterdam/Amsterdam tickets on Eurostar Blue currently

 

[TheWierdOne]

Trenitalia has signed a 35 year deal for a €80m depot near Paris, once fully operational will be able to hold 25 trains

Article mentions could be used to support proposed service to London.

Trenitalia leases a Paris depot for 35 years | RAILMARKET.com

With planned commissioning in 2029, Trenitalia France leased a depot from SNCF Réseau at rail site Maisons-Alfort Pompadour.

railmarket.com

Good to see some movement on this, although the location will mean some lengthy ECS moves around Paris to get the London trains in and out of service. How many trains do Trenitalia need for their London services?

 

[Schweir]

They sell Lille-Rotterdam/Amsterdam tickets on Eurostar Blue currently

Thanks, I did see that, I was wondering why they sell them from Lille but not Brussels

 

[Krokodil]

although the location will mean some lengthy ECS moves around Paris to get the London trains in and out of service.

Presumably access to Gare de Lyon was considered more important, as it is an established service.

 

[Trainbike46]

Thanks, I did see that, I was wondering why they sell them from Lille but not Brussels

My guess (and note it is a guess, I have no insider knowledge) is that it will be to do with the split between Eurostar International Ltd and THI Factory SA, which legally speaking at least are separate companies, both part of Eurostar Group, and various flows being assigned to the different companies. THI Factory/Eurostar Red does not offer the Lille-Brussels/Rotterdam/Amsterdam flow, so Eurostar Blue offers that one, while Eurostar Red is assigned the Brussels-Rotterdam/Amsterdam flow.

 

[Harlequinuk]

What about Gemini? Any news from them?

 

[Sorcerer]

Interesting development, though I'm not sure Trenitalia will use a depot on the lines leading into Gare de Lyon to support a potential service into London. I would hedge a bet that this would more likely support it's existing services to the south after the landslide near Modane disrupted the Paris to Milan route that would've also made empty stock movements harder. It'd take a fair bit of work to support a cross-Channel service with a depot in Maisons-Alfort.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Interesting development, though I'm not sure Trenitalia will use a depot on the lines leading into Gare de Lyon to support a potential service into London. I would hedge a bet that this would more likely support it's existing services to the south after the landslide near Modane disrupted the Paris to Milan route that would've also made empty stock movements harder. It'd take a fair bit of work to support a cross-Channel service with a depot in Maisons-Alfort.

I imagine the advantage of having a single, large depot outweighs the inconvenience of working the London stock empty around to the Gare du Nord via the 'Interconnexion'. If they are going to compete in the early morning outbound market from London, however, they will need at least some overnight cleaning / stabling facility there.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I imagine the advantage of having a single, large depot outweighs the inconvenience of working the London stock empty around to the Gare du Nord via the 'Interconnexion'. If they are going to compete in the early morning outbound market from London, however, they will need at least some overnight cleaning / stabling facility there.

I doubt LSPH will have any trouble letting them stable overnight in St Pancras. If they’re using 200m trains then you could easily stack up four overnight without impacting Eurostar’s departures. They would have plenty of time to get 2 trains away and free up a platform for the first arrivals from Paris.