Railcards users to face additional checks when buying tickets

[AlterEgo]

In an age of technology I wish the default approach were to solve the problem closer to the root cause (by regularly checking tickets on trains!). The more technology involved, the more privacy is given up.

What privacy is given up by validating a railcard, which you already bought and is already on a database?

 

[rwblake]

What privacy is given up by validating a railcard, which you already bought and is already on a database?

It specifically identifies who is travelling, not just that a ticket has been purchased. Yes, tracking on card transactions does this too, but only vaguely. It doesn't say who's going and when.
Broadly I'm for what they're doing in principle. I just expect all the journeys will get logged as well as requiring a valid railcard to buy a ticket. That bit is unnecesary.

 

[MrJeeves]

It specifically identifies who is travelling, not just that a ticket has been purchased. Yes, tracking on card transactions does this too, but only vaguely. It doesn't say who's going and when.

It only identifies who has purchased the ticket (...or whose railcard details were entered when buying the ticket!). It's not going to tie the ticket to the person who bought it any more than, as you say, paying for it with your card would.

If you were buying for multiple people, nothing would stop you buying 3 tickets one-by-one and entering your own railcard details for each.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a central railcard validation database.
[…]
I think it's a shame it doesn't cover Jobcentre Plus Railcards, but I think it's understandable given how they are issued.

I’m amazed. There have been so many previous posts have said it doesn’t yet exist.

 

[MrJeeves]

I’m amazed. There’s been many previous posts have said it doesn’t yet exist.

It's existed for over a year and a half (maybe even over two years?) in some form. It's primarily been in use for account-based ticketing (the PAYG schemes) based on the documentation.

The first mentions I can find of it on here are from October 2024, in relation to the prosecutions fiasco.

Northern and prosecutions for railcard use before 10am

Agreed. If Sainsbury's find I've missed an item on self-scanning, they charge the correct price and flag me for further checks. They don’t prosecute me for the price of a can of beans. Neither do the Twitter teams probably. The underlying issue is that railcards are fundamentally stupid. We...

www.railforums.co.uk

e.g.

It's still concerning that no retailers, either third party or TOC have integrated into the RDG Railcard Validation API. It needs to be mandated as part of accreditation.

Retailers have offered. Perhaps before jumping to hitting retailers with the accreditation stick, a trial should be conducted?

 

[sor]

There is a central railcard validation database.

Presumably it covers digitally issued local railcards, eg the Devon and Cornwall? The GWR FAQs reference needing to use "the national railcard app" so I would assume they are delivered in the same way as those are.

 

[Starmill]

I’m amazed. There have been so many previous posts have said it doesn’t yet exist.

It does exist, as I noted upthread. What it isn't, is complete.

All newly sold Railcards exist in this database.

maybe...

 

[MikeWM]

It only identifies who has purchased the ticket (...or whose railcard details were entered when buying the ticket!). It's not going to tie the ticket to the person who bought it any more than, as you say, paying for it with your card would.

I'm not terribly perturbed by this, as sadly there are a lot more severe concerns about privacy nowadays, and the unfortunately seemingly-inevitable widespread rollout of facial recognition CCTV makes a lot of these points moot.

Nevertheless, for those of us who mostly pay for tickets using cash, this will link a specific ticket to a specific individual in a way that isn't currently done. Add to that the records now kept whenever a barcoded ticket is scanned, and suddenly the railway potentially has a record of my movements, specifically and identifiably tied to me, that is *considerably* more detailed than anything it had previously (and something that not so long ago most people, quite correctly, would have been very reluctant to have had stored).

Currently all the railway knows is that I have a gold card. After this, it potentially knows what tickets I have bought over the course of a year with that gold card, with records of where and when each of those tickets were purchased, scanned, etc. That's a huge difference.

As I say, unfortunately there are a lot worse problems to occupy those of us who still think privacy is something worth defending. But there *is* a privacy angle to this.

 

[Kite159]

A TOC staff ID card?

I know of one person being caught using a card they should have handed in after leaving the company because a guard scanned it and it flagged up as withdrawn.

The current issue "Priv" cards have codes on, similar to the code found on digital railcards. I guess the idea of the code being scanned will highlight if that card has been flagged as withdrawn by the RDG (similar to the ID card where someone leaving the company might claim to have 'lost' it).

-----

Probably the easiest way when buying a ticket on a TVM/online with a railcard discount is a pop-up box saying "I confirm that I have checked, and I hold a valid railcard", giving a little nudge to checking the railcard. Guards don't always check railcards when doing revenue duties as generally it doubles (if not more) the time taken, especially if you get someone who doesn't know where the railcard is located on their phone due to multiple apps which can support railcards. Get an operator which pays per scan and why waste time checking a railcard when in the same time you could have scanned 2 more tickets earning some more pennies etc. (No doubt if the like of Northern or TfW introduced an additional payment per scan of digital railcard (say 5p extra) some guards will be on it like a seagull on dropped chips)

 

[redreni]

Guards don't always check railcards when doing revenue duties as generally it doubles (if not more) the time taken, especially if you get someone who doesn't know where the railcard is located on their phone due to multiple apps which can support railcards. Get an operator which pays per scan and why waste time checking a railcard when in the same time you could have scanned 2 more tickets earning some more pennies etc. (No doubt if the like of Northern or TfW introduced an additional payment per scan of digital railcard (say 5p extra) some guards will be on it like a seagull on dropped chips)

Well, if you incentivise people not to check tickets properly, that's what some will do. There are still a good number of people who will prioritise doing the job well whatever the perverse incentives may be, and plenty more who will look for a compromise between making the bean counters happy and doing a good job, where the two objectives conflict.

You'd think for the purposes of this performance metric the number of tickets deemed scanned should be the number of non-Railcard-discounted tickets scanned, plus the lesser of the number of Railcard-discounted tickets scanned and the number of Railcards scanned. But, of course, you can't fairly do that because a lot of Railcards can't be scanned.

I dread to think how they arrived at the figure they're quoting for how much revenue they will gain by having Railcard verification at point of purchase. Unless they tell us, I'm inclined to think the figure is completely meaningless and very unlikely to be anything like correct.

 

[WesternLancer]

I suspect that could fall foul of a revenue block at their origin station anyway.

Not if they bought a ticket 'just to get through the barriers'....

 

[riceuten]

You only have to see all the requests for help on this forum from people who have purchased tickets without a valid Railcards (fraudulently or otherwise) to know this is long, long, long overdue

I wonder what next ? Proof that you have a child to buy child tickets (this is the biggest fraud at my station). It's ill thought out and headline grabbing. If the card that was issued was smart and could be tapped to prove entitlement, maybe it would fly. At the moment, every railcard discounted ticket at my station is rejected and has to be manually checked - this has been in place for more than 18 months. Great fun when there is a massive queue of people who don't have the right ticket. But if I load a ticket onto my smartcard, it's not checked or rejected.

How will this work with smart card like Key Go ? At the moment, I have to send a photo of the card to Thameslink for them to load it onto my card. How very Heath Robinson Esque. I wonder - will I have to "validate" my smart card for each journey ?

 

[WesternLancer]

I dread to think how they arrived at the figure they're quoting for how much revenue they will gain by having Railcard verification at point of purchase. Unless they tell us, I'm inclined to think the figure is completely meaningless and very unlikely to be anything like correct.

I think the late Simon Hoggart - Guardian parliamentary sketch writer had the answer to this - he regularly featured such figures in his columns, questioning their credibility - he suggested, IIRC, that they almost certainly originate from the Department for Imaginary Statistics.

I assume this is wholly separate to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), who work hard to provide accurate data - but is a Department much loved by, I imagine. press officers and politicians.

 

[davews]

Is it required to enter the full card number, all 15 digits? I can imagine this will slow things down at TVMs for somebody buying multiple tickets with multiple cards....

 

[gazthomas]

I wonder what next ? Proof that you have a child to buy child tickets (this is the biggest fraud at my station). It's ill thought out and headline grabbing. If the card that was issued was smart and could be tapped to prove entitlement, maybe it would fly. At the moment, every railcard discounted ticket at my station is rejected and has to be manually checked - this has been in place for more than 18 months. Great fun when there is a massive queue of people who don't have the right ticket. But if I load a ticket onto my smartcard, it's not checked or rejected.

How will this work with smart card like Key Go ? At the moment, I have to send a photo of the card to Thameslink for them to load it onto my card. How very Heath Robinson Esque. I wonder - will I have to "validate" my smart card for each journey ?

I don't think this is a chore for the benefit of the discount received. Online purchases it should be simple (with something like how Unidays works), while purchases from machines could be adapted based on NFC or QR codes on the cards. If you want to manually prove entitlement go a booking office.

 

[Bikeman78]

My granny had a senior railcard in the 1980s. She only renewed it the day she intended to travel, or perhaps the day before, so leaving gaps in validity is not a new concept, nor is it limited to enthusiasts. To the best of my recollection, she only used walk up tickets, so the problem of needing a valid railcard to buy in advance did not exist for her.

What happens at a ticket office? Say I have a railcard that expires at the end of April. I want to buy an advance for the end of May. Will the booking clerk insist that I renew my railcard?

There has been discussion of needing to type in a railcard number to buy tickets online. Will the number be displayed on the ticket? If not, then existing railcard holders can simply type in the current number and renew on the day of travel.

 

[riceuten]

My granny had a senior railcard in the 1980s. She only renewed it the day she intended to travel, or perhaps the day before, so leaving gaps in validity is not a new concept, nor is it limited to enthusiasts. To the best of my recollection, she only used walk up tickets, so the problem of needing a valid railcard to buy in advance did not exist for her.

What happens at a ticket office? Say I have a railcard that expires at the end of April. I want to buy an advance for the end of May. Will the booking clerk insist that I renew my railcard?

There has been discussion of needing to type in a railcard number to buy tickets online. Will the number be displayed on the ticket? If not, then existing railcard holders can simply type in the current number and renew on the day of travel.

It's almost as if they haven't thought it through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

I don't think this is a chore for the benefit of the discount received. Online purchases it should be simple (with something like how Unidays works), while purchases from machines could be adapted based on NFC or QR codes on the cards. If you want to manually prove entitlement go a booking office.

If they actually included bar codes/QR codes to be scanned on newly issued cards, maybe that would fly. Imagine retrofitting all ticket machines with QR scanners. Just imagine.

 

[Sonic1234]

Reality is could probably scrap all railcards, cut 25-30% off all fares, to nearly same as railcard price and would be revenue neutral

Off peak, it is rare to find someone travelling without a railcard. The discounted ticket scan noise is the standard sound when the guard checks tickets, often guards check the display when it makes the non discounted ticket noise because it's unusual.

 

[Krokodil]

Well, if you incentivise people not to check tickets properly

There will always be a compromise between the depth and breadth of a ticket check. If you ask to see every last railcard then you're only going to get halfway through the carriage. If you want to see every last passenger then you'll have to be less concerned about the details. I always tried to vary my approach from train to train to get the best of both, likewise prioritising which railcards I did and didn't bother asking for based on experience of which ones are the most likely to be missing - Jobcentre ones got checked every last time.

 

[gazthomas]

It's almost as if they haven't thought it through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==


If they actually included bar codes/QR codes to be scanned on newly issued cards, maybe that would fly. Imagine retrofitting all ticket machines with QR scanners. Just imagine.

That's why I suggested NFC as they should be fitted with these

 

[Bletchleyite]

My granny had a senior railcard in the 1980s. She only renewed it the day she intended to travel, or perhaps the day before, so leaving gaps in validity is not a new concept, nor is it limited to enthusiasts. To the best of my recollection, she only used walk up tickets, so the problem of needing a valid railcard to buy in advance did not exist for her.

What happens at a ticket office? Say I have a railcard that expires at the end of April. I want to buy an advance for the end of May. Will the booking clerk insist that I renew my railcard?

In short, yes. It has long been the policy overall but for practical reasons has not applied online until now.

Edit: looks like I misread the question - they will ask for a Railcard which must be held to purchase, but it might not be checked whether it needs renewal or not.

 

[Belperpete]

It's almost as if they haven't thought it through.
If they actually included bar codes/QR codes to be scanned on newly issued cards, maybe that would fly. Imagine retrofitting all ticket machines with QR scanners. Just imagine.

As the validation system is due to be trialled later this year, whatever it is presumably has to be compatible with existing TVMs, existing types and versions of railcard, and all existing ticket formats. They are not going to retrofit large numbers of TVMs in a few months, nor re-issue every railcard in that time. Some of the things people have been suggesting/speculating on here would need years to implement even for a small trial scheme.

It is either going to be something incredibly simple, like a pop-up that just asks you to confirm that you have the specified railcard. Or something incredibly unwieldy, like requiring you to type in your name and 15-digit railcard number every time you use a TVM - whether you have a plastic or electronic railcard.

There is no suggestion in the press release that this time-of-purchase validation will replace time-of-travel validation. You may still be asked to produce your railcard when travelling.

 

[Sonic1234]

They are not going to retrofit large numbers of TVMs in a few months, nor re-issue every railcard in that time. Some of the things people have been suggesting/speculating on here would need years to implement even for a small trial scheme.

The railway will have been replaced with autonomous flying taxis you order via a chip in your brain before LU TVMs will have the functionality to scan a railcard. Some of them are antiques.

They still give you 34% off with a railcard too.

 

[Meole]

Facial recognition would solve the problem, they have the digital image for my railcard, as I now board planes without a boarding card simply on a face grab the technology is proven and in widespread use.

 

[Belperpete]

May be worth reading the official announcement rather than relying on AI slop from local newspapers.

Note “Customers will also be able to apply through third-party retailers like Trainline” (my emphasis).

It doesn’t sound like you’ll be forced to use the original retailer, only that you’ll be able to, and behind the scenes all delay repay systems are being merged into one central system that both retailers and TOCs can access.

If I understand that correctly, it looks like the ability to apply for DR from third-party retailers will only come into effect after DR has been merged into one central system. That would make sense, as with the current system, with TOCs running their own independent systems, all that a retailer would be able to do would be to forward the claim onto whoever they deem to be the responsible TOC. And I suspect some retailers would be better at that than others.

The press release makes no mention of the Open Access operators. Presumably they are going to have to be strong-armed into joining the central DR system. Otherwise how are third-party retailers going to deal with DR claims that involve an OA operator for part of the journey? Likewise will TfL, MerseyRail, etc be forced to join, otherwise how is the central system / third-party retailers going to deal with journeys that involve LU, LO, Lizzy line, etc for part of the journey?

I would hope with a central system that you would be able to apply direct to GBR (or whoever they delegate to run the system), rather than be forced to apply indirectly via a ticket-retailer or TOC. Although I could see GBR thinking it better to keep moaning customers at arms length!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

Facial recognition would solve the problem, they have the digital image for my railcard, as I now board planes without a boarding card simply on a face grab the technology is proven and in widespread use.

Except that plastic railcards don't have the person's image on them, and won't have within the short timescale that this system is proposed to be trialled.

 

[mickey]

In addition to the problem of post-dated (or otherwise) railcards there’s also an issue with those approaching expiry, as currently they can only be renewed within 30 days, while tickets are available for 12 weeks. Even in the current customer-unfriendly environment I don’t see anyone from the industry saying you should buy the second one early, they’d be laughed out the room… but obviously it defeats the ‘avoiding fraud’ objective if you allow future tickets to be bought with a railcard that will be invalid by then.

And if a TVM needs to conduct live validation, you’d also need a workaround for cases where the API goes down or has a latency issue. The answer can’t just be go to a ticket office as there aren’t many of those any more. In the air industry, if the (Amadeus-hosted) frequent flyer server can’t be accessed to validate FFP status, BA will still sell you a ticket with the field blank - you’d need something here too unless (haha) you can guarantee 100% uptime.

I suspect it will be a pop-up, similar to the annoying one currently that shows ‘refund conditions are changing next month’ even when you’re buying a ticket that’s only valid for immediate travel. But who knows. If - and it’s a big if imo! - they do try to be smart, I’d suggest using some kind of NFC/RFID option rather than QR codes, as all TVMs have contactless pads but few if any have barcode scanners.

Either way, I’m glad the trial will be on someone else’s patch and not mine.

On the delay repay changes, if it drags XR into the equation at last, it will be a good thing. Currently it’s an absolute nightmare chasing anything from TfL.

 

[riceuten]

That's why I suggested NFC as they should be fitted with these

Then you would have to issue cards with chips in them.

 

[sheff1]

But for on line purchasing I assume retailers will come up with a more robust method of storing your railcard on your purchase log in in a way that doesn’t automatically retain it after expiry date

How then would I buy online tickets for a someone who does not hold a railcard ? Conversely how would someone without a railcard buy online tickets for some who does ?

Railcards should be active and validated before purchase

Why ?

I have recently bought tickets for rail travel in France for a future date and bought their equivalent of a railcard to start on the same date. Absolutely fine and no need for the 'railcard' to be active at the time of ticket purchase..

 

[Mainline421]

And if a TVM needs to conduct live validation, you’d also need a workaround for cases where the API goes down or has a latency issue. The answer can’t just be go to a ticket office as there aren’t many of those any more. In the air industry, if the (Amadeus-hosted) frequent flyer server can’t be accessed to validate FFP status, BA will still sell you a ticket with the field blank - you’d need something here too unless (haha) you can guarantee 100% uptime.

Realistically all this will mean for TVMs is that you will have to type in photocard number, same as in Ireland currently. It quite likely already contains a check-digit to validate you didn't just enter a random number, but can't actually check whether the Railcard is valid. Honestly this makes sense for online platforms, but not for TVMs since you already have to select the Railcard each time all it will do is needlessly lengthen the process. At ticket offices and on board I'd really hope that visual checks would be enough otherwise it would probably end up revenue negative since guard’s will end spending their whole time typing in Railcard numbers..

 

[AlterEgo]

Why ?

I have recently bought tickets for rail travel in France for a future date and bought their equivalent of a railcard to start on the same date. Absolutely fine and no need for the 'railcard' to be active at the time of ticket purchase.

If you read my posts you will see me repeatedly suggest that post dating railcards ought to be possible, so you've misconstrued the meaning of "active" here.