Railcards users to face additional checks when buying tickets

[AlterEgo]

In terms of railcards I guess my personal view is that they should offer post-dated railcards and require a validated railcard for discounted purchases. It seems very strange that (as stated elsewhere) there is no central railcard database when there ought to be. I'd hope that at least all digital railcard purchases and all physical railcards purchased through the official website are recorded centrally?

You also have odd railcards like HM Forces which are often handwritten and wouldn't be on there either, as they're locally issued by the military's admin staff or in some cases by the Royal British Legion.

 

[Skymonster]

RDG can do all it likes to make buying a ticket with a railcard more difficult (sorry, I mean more robust), but unless checking on-train and at gate lines is ramped up and becomes more consistent then the purported problem won’t be solved. And that’s simply because, after someone buys a ticket [online in particular] with a ‘valid’ railcard, anyone can actually use the ticket.

 

[35B]

I find it strange that we had a thread not long ago where people were suggesting pretty much exactly what is proposed, with the one issue raised as being the issue of purchase a long way in advance*, and now the railway is proposing to actually do pretty much exactly what was suggested on here people are now up in arms about it as some kind of overreach or surveillance?

* When tickets were mostly only available from booking offices back in the 90s and earlier, a Railcard had to be produced for each discounted ticket. So we're just going back to that, albeit with far more advance purchase which affects the effect (!) of it.

I regarded the current proposal as barking in that thread, precisely because of the impact on advance bookings. The edge cases are significant, especially for age restricted railcards, while the practical impacts are wider (I'm trying to think about the practicalities of the purchase I make for one Senior Railcard holder, for example).

Given the recommendations in the ORR report, and what's being implemented here, the current proposal is an utter dogs breakfast. I look forward to seeing the financial analysis and Equalities Impact Assessment emerge through FOI.

 

[WesternLancer]

What happened to personal responsibility?

What’s next? Having to produce an in date MoT certificate to buy petrol?

Of course not! It will be that you will have to upload your licence, MOT and insurance document before you book and pay in advance for, a time limited reserved slot on the road to drive from A-B - you won't be able to break your journey for longer than a 20 minute personal needs break too. . There will be season tickets for these slots, but no refunds if decision not to travel made on the day

But at least that will mean a level playing field across modes.

Funnily enough I can't see people at the DfT seeing it like this.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The other point about the advance purchase of course is that the massive increase in pre-date of travel purchasing has been directly enabled and encouraged by the railway industry, so in my view it is entirely reasonable for any changes they subsequently bring about to cater for advance purchase properly

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other point about the advance purchase of course is that the massive increase in pre-date of travel purchasing has been directly enabled and encouraged by the railway industry, so in my view it is entirely reasonable for any changes they subsequently bring about to cater for advance purchase properly

I don't disagree. The ability to post date a railcard purchase would appear to deal with this, though, so quite an easy fix.

Will they fix it? Well, that's another question.

 

[35B]

Almost certainly. Now, if you are caught with an expired railcard, you have almost no excuse, and can more "legitimately" be pursued by way of civil or criminal means.

A policy that ramps up punitive enforcement, rather than pushing common sense into the system

Given that it isn't a requirement to have an MoT certificate to buy petrol that seems rather daft. Perhaps a better comparison would be renting a car as the main driver and having to show your driving licence to do so (and have it verified in many cases!), something which is not really controversial.

A parallel that misses the significance of the driving licence to a booking, or the nature of the advance purchase of a railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A policy that ramps up punitive enforcement, rather than pushing common sense into the system

It is common sense. The only reason you have the "honour system" for anything is because it's impractical to check on entry to the system/on purchase. There is but one issue with it - that you can't presently postdate a Railcard - and that's very easily fixed.

 

[WestAnglian]

Almost certainly. Now, if you are caught with an expired railcard, you have almost no excuse, and can more "legitimately" be pursued by way of civil or criminal means.


Given that it isn't a requirement to have an MoT certificate to buy petrol that seems rather daft. Perhaps a better comparison would be renting a car as the main driver and having to show your driving licence to do so (and have it verified in many cases!), something which is not really controversial.

I thought the problem with enforcement being addressed wasn't expired or non-existent railcards so much as what seems to be frequent and often accidental confusion about two types of railcard that young people can buy. There have been several cases on Disputes and Prosecutions on people being clobbered for genuine errors. If this move stops people from selecting the worng type of railcard it could be a useful thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the problem with enforcement being addressed wasn't expired or non-existent railcards so much as what seems to be frequent and often accidental confusion about two types of railcard that young people can buy. There have been several cases on Disputes and Prosecutions on people being clobbered for genuine errors. If this move stops people from selecting the worng type of railcard it could be a useful thing.

I would question precisely how many of the cases where someone has selected 16-17 Saver rather than 16-25 Railcard were genuine accidents rather than someone casually trying it on, to be honest. Children often do not consider consequences.

Either way, this change would end that issue.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't disagree. The ability to post date a railcard purchase would appear to deal with this, though, so quite an easy fix.

Will they fix it? Well, that's another question.

My hunch is that buying tickets in advance when you don't have the railcard will just get abolished in the name of 'convenience' and 'logic' - with the handy side effect of the industry getting people to pay up for railcards they don't need to use for weeks ahead if they want a big discount on an and Advance fare.

The Govt / DfT (given other decisions) and the RDG etc will see this as logical - and see the current arrangement as a historical anomaly that pre dates the ease of on line discounted ticket buying etc etc (if they even have a clue that advance ticket buying was a thing that was even possible before the internet existed....) and should be an anomaly to be removed in the name of simplification.

What's more -I genuinely wonder how many people know that it's a possible thing to do? Obviously a lot of people but as a percentage of total ticket buyers I bet it's small.

Recalling chatting to friends - and it's an anecdotal sample, I know plenty of them would not know you could buy a ticket for future use without actually having the railcard, and other things like buying the railcard the day before your birthday that allows eligibility for longer (eg 16-25 railcard bought the day before your 25th birthday)

Lots of policy makers who might be asked to sign this off would not realise this (and, as they say, 'some of my best friends are policy makers')

 

[35B]

It is common sense. The only reason you have the "honour system" for anything is because it's impractical to check on entry to the system/on purchase. There is but one issue with it - that you can't presently postdate a Railcard - and that's very easily fixed.

Then why isn't it being promoted? The absence of that element in the announcement demonstrates how the announcement is using customer convenience as a smokescreen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

I would question precisely how many of the cases where someone has selected 16-17 Saver rather than 16-25 Railcard were genuine accidents rather than someone casually trying it on, to be honest. Children often do not consider consequences.

Either way, this change would end that issue.

The ORR report was explicit that the industry should consider aligning the child fare boundary to 18, to remove this cliff edge. Absent any announcement to that effect, and we can draw our own conclusions

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Govt / DfT (given other decisions) and the RDG etc will see this as logical - and see the current arrangement as a historical anomaly that pre dates the ease of on line discounted ticket buying etc etc (if they even have a clue that advance ticket buying was a thing that was even possible before the internet existed....) and should be an anomaly to be removed in the name of simplification.

To be fair it is a historical anomaly. Nobody ever actively decided to remove the requirement to check Railcards before purchase which existed when booking offices were the only way to purchase. Technology just made it unintentionally obsolete because it wasn't possible to do it.

Of course, with more and longer advance purchase now it's more of an issue than it was, but it is correct to say it's a historical anomaly and not deliberate policy either way.

 

[WesternLancer]

It is common sense. The only reason you have the "honour system" for anything is because it's impractical to check on entry to the system/on purchase. There is but one issue with it - that you can't presently postdate a Railcard - and that's very easily fixed.

agreed FWIW - even card railcards would have start and end dates printed on them after all (always thought it was off that they do not in fact)

 

[35B]

My hunch is that buying tickets in advance when you don't have the railcard will just get abolished in the name of 'convenience' and 'logic' - with the handy side effect of the industry getting people to pay up for railcards they don't need to use for weeks ahead if they want a big discount on an and Advance fare.

The Govt / DfT (given other decisions) and the RDG etc will see this as logical - and see the current arrangement as a historical anomaly that pre dates the ease of on line discounted ticket buying etc etc (if they even have a clue that advance ticket buying was a thing that was even possible before the internet existed....) and should be an anomaly to be removed in the name of simplification.

Which is where FOI would be interesting - as would equalities impact on affected groups. And if that hasn't been done (as if...), what does that say about the quality of thinking?

 

[WesternLancer]

To be fair it is a historical anomaly. Nobody ever actively decided to remove the requirement to check Railcards before purchase which existed when booking offices were the only way to purchase. Technology just made it unintentionally obsolete because it wasn't possible to do it.

Of course, with more and longer advance purchase now it's more of an issue than it was, but it is correct to say it's a historical anomaly and not deliberate policy either way.

fair point

 

[Bletchleyite]

Recalling chatting to friends - and it's an anecdotal sample, I know plenty of them would not know you could buy a ticket for future use without actually having the railcard, and other things like buying the railcard the day before your birthday that allows eligibility for longer (eg 16-25 railcard bought the day before your 25th birthday)

Lots of policy makers who might be asked to sign this off would not realise this (and, as they say, 'some of my best friends are policy makers')

It would be interesting to know precisely how many Railcard holders don't just maintain one at all times while eligible, renewing each time it comes up. I'd think the proportion who don't would be relatively small, and probably mostly Two Together and Family cards, and heavily weighted towards the former.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

fair point

FWIW I think booking offices are still supposed to ask for it. I haven't purchased from one for literally years (other than Merseyrail where the Railcard I hold, a Network one, is irrelevant), but I'm almost certain last time I did I was asked.

 

[Southern Beau]

I guess no more Northern complementary tickets then.

If you book through northern, and make the claim through northern, comp tickets might still be offered?

 

[WesternLancer]

Which is where FOI would be interesting - as would equalities impact on affected groups. And if that hasn't been done (as if...), what does that say about the quality of thinking?

The same quality of thinking that presumably believes it's fine to have a price cap on energy like gas and electricity applied to all domestic users of those fuel, but not on heating oil where the price cap 'equivalent' will be means tested by local councils. At the risk of digressing so this is for comparison purposes only.

 

[35B]

It would be interesting to know precisely how many Railcard holders don't just maintain one at all times while eligible, renewing each time it comes up. I'd think the proportion who don't would be relatively small, and probably mostly Two Together and Family cards.

And when the child is turning 16 or 18, or an adult becoming eligible for the Senior Railcard? Unlike, say, failing to organise renewal of a Two Together railcard, these are hard boundaries where a requirement to pre-purchase is either impossible (Senior) or will directly cause wasted validity (16-17, YP, 26-30).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

The same quality of thinking that presumably believes it's fine to have a price cap on energy like gas and electricity applied to all domestic users of those fuel, but not on heating oil where the price cap 'equivalent' will be means tested by local councils. At the risk of digressing so this is for comparison purposes only.

Precisely - and see above age based railcards

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I would question precisely how many of the cases where someone has selected 16-17 Saver rather than 16-25 Railcard were genuine accidents rather than someone casually trying it on, to be honest.

It happened to me! The Northern TVM put in 16-17 when I clicked on 16-25 (I noticed after it had printed - starting a month's long battle for a refund after buying the correct one), when buying the correct one I physically clicked on 16-25 and it selected 16-17 (but I was paying more attention that time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

And when the child is turning 16 or 18, or an adult becoming eligible for the Senior Railcard? Unlike, say, failing to organise renewal of a Two Together railcard, these are hard boundaries where a requirement to pre-purchase is either impossible (Senior) or will directly cause wasted validity (16-17, YP, 26-30).

So given that tickets are generally (with odd exceptions like the Cally) sold no more than 3 months in advance, and given that one becomes eligible for a Senior Railcard only once in one's lifetime, that's an extra £7.50 £8.75 sorry, they've gone up, any person who maintains an eligible Railcard valid at all times* is going to pay in their entire life (for 3 months of Senior validity) to comply with this policy?

It's not zero, no, but a typical Railcard holder will purchase hundreds of pounds of tickets each year so it is rather de-minimis.

It's an issue for people purchasing as a one off, most notably Two Together cards which are more likely to be relevant only for one journey, sure. But not for anyone who maintains a Railcard for the maximum period they are entitled to one, other than the Senior which is from a given age to death.

* Anyone who does that for a 16-17, 16-25 or 26-30 will purchase the same number of Railcards to maintain that validity for its maximum period regardless of whether the first one is started 3 months later or not. That's why I said the 3 month extensions that were given after the gauge corner cracking incidents of the early 2000s were a sham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

It happened to me! The Northern TVM put in 16-17 when I clicked on 16-25 (I noticed after it had printed - starting a month's long battle for a refund after buying the correct one), when buying the correct one I physically clicked on 16-25 and it selected 16-17 (but I was paying more attention that time).

I guess that was screen parallax, i.e. you pressed where it appeared to say 16-25 but actually selected 16-17 - those large screen TVMs are awful for that. I didn't say it would be zero, but I do think it is likely to be mostly intentional.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It would be interesting to know precisely how many Railcard holders don't just maintain one at all times while eligible, renewing each time it comes up. I'd think the proportion who don't would be relatively small, and probably mostly Two Together and Family cards, and heavily weighted towards the former.

If the government has a policy of modal shift away from car use, these are some of the people they want to use the railway more often, not the habitual users. Throwing up more barriers won’t help

A current example for what it’s worth. My parents are travelling up to ours the week after Easter. They use a 2T railcard but this will be the first journey since it expired in February. They’re travelling on advances that I bought for them 4 weeks ago because they don’t use the internet. Why should they be penalised?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the government has a policy of modal shift away from car use, these are some of the people they want to use the railway more often, not the habitual users. Throwing up more barriers won’t help

I'd question how much of a barrier it is, and indeed how many of them even think you could purchase a discounted ticket without yet holding the Railcard (something which was never deliberate policy anyway, and is still not possible at a booking office if they're doing their job, if I understand correctly).

It strikes me that the policy will disadvantage a relatively small number of people, remove the ability to get a discount by mistake (a common issue in Disputes and Prosecutions) and wipe out a load of fraud. Its effect is far more niche than the tightening of refund policy recently announced - it'll basically almost exclusively hit the MoneySavingExpert enthusiasts - and it won't cost anyone two hundred quid - indeed a maximum of £8.75 in most use cases for the extra three months of validity (and it will stop some people being cost £200 or so when they thought they had a valid Railcard but didn't). Thus I think I would say I support it, aside from that I'd allow post dating of Railcard purchases for those small numbers who do need that, mostly with Two Togethers which are often purchased for one journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the government has a policy of modal shift away from car use, these are some of the people they want to use the railway more often, not the habitual users. Throwing up more barriers won’t help

Sorry I really don't see this as a massive barrier and a lot of the moaning here is just going into the abyss. Railcards should be active and validated before purchase, that is how any other subscription would work and it's how most normals would expect it to work. The only real change they could make is postdating a railcard. But I'm with @Bletchleyite on this one, it will not really move the dial.

This should result in far fewer young people being criminalised or pursued for debts, and the people who do travel without a railcard or with it expired don't have the plausibility of a defence.

 

[35B]

So given that tickets are generally (with odd exceptions like the Cally) sold no more than 3 months in advance, and given that one becomes eligible for a Senior Railcard only once in one's lifetime, that's an extra £7.50 £8.75 sorry, they've gone up, any person who maintains an eligible Railcard valid at all times* is going to pay in their entire life (for 3 months of Senior validity) to comply with this policy?

It's not zero, no, but a typical Railcard holder will purchase hundreds of pounds of tickets each year so it is rather de-minimis.

It's an issue for people purchasing as a one off, most notably Two Together cards which are more likely to be relevant only for one journey, sure. But not for anyone who maintains a Railcard for the maximum period they are entitled to one, other than the Senior which is from a given age to death.

* Anyone who does that for a 16-17, 16-25 or 26-30 will purchase the same number of Railcards to maintain that validity for its maximum period regardless of whether the first one is started 3 months later or not. That's why I said the 3 month extensions that were given after the gauge corner cracking incidents of the early 2000s were a sham.

But a customer can't purchase age related railcards till eligible, so the example relates to fares, not railcard.

I'd question how much of a barrier it is, and indeed how many of them even think you could purchase a discounted ticket without yet holding the Railcard (something which was never deliberate policy anyway, and is still not possible at a booking office if they're doing their job, if I understand correctly).

It's widely understood and expected in my experience

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2026 ==

Sorry I really don't see this as a massive barrier and a lot of the moaning here is just going into the abyss. Railcards should be active and validated before purchase, that is how any other subscription would work and it's how most normals would expect it to work. The only real change they could make is postdating a railcard. But I'm with @Bletchleyite on this one, it will not really move the dial.

This should result in far fewer young people being criminalised or pursued for debts, and the people who do travel without a railcard or with it expired don't have the plausibility of a defence.

If that were to be true, then I'd expect to see a balance of measures here - not just an announcement of pre-purchase restrictions.

The lack of anything like post-dating tells me that this is an enforcement measure under the guise of something customer friendly. It is certainly not an implementation of the ORR recommendations in any sense reconcilable with the English language

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a customer can't purchase age related railcards till eligible, so the example relates to fares, not railcard.

We're headed for the RailUK Standard Minority here.

If we're saying that the tradeoff is that people who:

• Are turning 16 or 60 within 3 months (the 16-25 and 16-17 overlap in age validity so the transition between these doesn't count, you can overlap them if you want)
• AND want to buy a ticket for travel after they turn 16/60 that far in advance
• AND that ticket is eligible for a discount
• AND that discount would be significant (bearing in mind that Advances purchased that far in advance tend to be very cheap - many Northern ones even for long distances under a fiver for instance)

...lose out by more than £8.75, but a load of fraud is stopped and costly mistakes are wiped out? I think we are?

In that case I remain in support. That is a tiny niche of people.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

When it comes to <buying your railcard discounted ticket significantly before travel and before buying the relevant railcard> it does seem to me that we're worrying about people who
- weren't planning to make a railcardable journey for several weeks, and also
- expected to be making railcardable journeys in a year's time, such that they wouldn't be covered by a railcard bought with the ticket but would be covered by a railcard bought in time for the journey

Or to say the same more simply, they're not travelling by train much right now but will be travelling a lot in about a year's time.

I would suggest that this is going to be a pretty small (even vanishingly small) demographic - possibly mainly populated by members of this forum who are keen to get the best value they possibly can. And there's nothing wrong with wanting best value, but it may be that by looking at that we're failing to see the bigger picture.

 

[The exile]

As a former booking clerk, way way back in BR days, railcards were not issued pre-dated. They were issued to start on the day of sale/issue.
I think, but may be wrong, that there was something like a 3 (or maybe 7) day leeway for (continuation) renewals.

Got a feeling it was 14 days - although logically it should have been the longest period of ticket validity.

 

[Ediswan]

Is there an existing database (consolidated or distributed) to verify railcard details against ? If so, how quickly are newly purchased railcards added to it ?