E-Ticket vs Apple Pay Contactless at Mainline Gateline

[ricoblade]

Hi All - My daughter had an LNER e-ticket on her iphone but when she tried to scan it at the mainline King's Cross gateline, her Apple Pay contactless kicked in and opened the barrier with this.

This of course caused an incomplete journey with only a tap in registering. I managed to try and refund it from the TfL website and it seemed to work, though it said something like "seeing as this is your first time we will process the refund".

How does she stop this happening again please?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The contactless pad is a long way from the barcode scanner. Thus scan the right thing in the right place. The contactless pad is the round yellow thing on top of the gate, the barcode scanner is usually in front of the gate.

 

[Vexed]

I managed to try and refund it from the TfL website and it seemed to work, though it said something like "seeing as this is your first time we will process the refund".

I assume you got an automated refund through the website? It just means for future refunds you'll be directed to contact TfL with proof of your other ticket.

 

[thejuggler]

Two ways to prevent it.

Ensure the ticket code is showing on the phone screen and not her default contactless card.
Present the code to the glass code reader and not the yellow contactless pad.

 

[Vexed]

Two ways to prevent it.

Ensure the ticket code is showing on the phone screen and not her default contactless card.
Present the code to the glass code reader and not the yellow contactless pad.

Also avoid using screenshots or PDFs. Showing the eTicket in Apple Wallet or the LNER app itself should temporarily disable the NFC used for contactless if LNER have set things up properly.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Also avoid using screenshots or PDFs. Showing the eTicket in Apple Wallet or the LNER app itself should temporarily disable the NFC used for contactless if LNER have set things up properly.

This function is actually a new RDG standard.

 

[MrJeeves]

This function is actually a new RDG standard.

Those standards are great when people follow them. I'm sure some will use the full 12 months compliance deadline before doing it.

Even better if they just do the sensible thing in the first place.

 

[OscarH]

Those standards are great when people follow them. I'm sure some will use the full 12 months compliance deadline before doing it

I once saw a retailer using a barcode spec version so old the flag had rolled over, it's bold to assume everyone will actually do it within 12 months.

And of course, those who drag their heels are often the same ones who won't have just applied common sense in the first place before someone wrote it down for them.

 

[John Hardee]

Make sure she has the 'express travel card' option disabled too on her iPhone. With this enabled it will tap in without having to have wallet open on phone and without Face ID / Touch ID authorisation. Turning it off will make it much less likely to accidentally activate like in this case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Make sure she has the 'express travel card' option disabled too on her iPhone. With this enabled it will tap in without having to have wallet open on phone and without Face ID / Touch ID authorisation. Turning it off will make it much less likely to accidentally activate like in this case.

Do any gatelines have the contactless pad so near the scanner that this could even happen? None of the retrofits are. It is likely user error. The only ones I can't remember about are Northern's. It is particularly likely people might get confused at say Farringdon where etickets are valid but there are no scanners, you have to go to staff to be let in.

It can and does happen on Ticketer bus ticket machines, though. One of the many reasons why these are badly designed - the idea is that you put your device or card in the same place whatever method of payment you are using (bar cash) but if the phone gets confused it's easy to use the wrong one.

 

[jon81uk]

The contactless pad is a long way from the barcode scanner. Thus scan the right thing in the right place. The contactless pad is the round yellow thing on top of the gate, the barcode scanner is usually in front of the gate.

This is it really, I don't think it is possible to accidentally tap contactless instead of reading a barcode.

The two times I've had to get refunds from TfL was me tapping contactless in error as I forgot which part of the journey I was on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is it really, I don't think it is possible to accidentally tap contactless instead of reading a barcode.

The two times I've had to get refunds from TfL was me tapping contactless in error as I forgot which part of the journey I was on.

I indeed suspect this is what happened. You do sometimes see people putting paper tickets onto the yellow pad and wondering why it doesn't work, so maybe signage needs improving.

 

[OscarH]

I indeed suspect this is what happened. You do sometimes see people putting paper tickets onto the yellow pad and wondering why it doesn't work, so maybe signage needs improving.

Similarly there was someone trying to use Apple Pay on the barcode reader at Gatwick the other day

 

[35B]

This is it really, I don't think it is possible to accidentally tap contactless instead of reading a barcode.

The two times I've had to get refunds from TfL was me tapping contactless in error as I forgot which part of the journey I was on.

It’s absolutely possible to do the wrong scan, and I’ve done it.

All that’s needed is a little bit of distraction and to hold the image to the card reader; the gate opens and the wrong ticket is engaged because it’s triggered contactless.

A mildly embarrassing phone call later, and all was sorted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s absolutely possible to do the wrong scan, and I’ve done it.

All that’s needed is a little bit of distraction and to hold the image to the card reader; the gate opens and the wrong ticket is engaged because it’s triggered contactless.

A mildly embarrassing phone call later, and all was sorted.

It's possible to do it if you put your phone to the card reader instead of the scanner. Sort of like some people sometimes put the sugar in the fridge and the milk in the cupboard after making a cup of tea.

It's not possible (unlike Ticketer bus ticket machines) to trigger the contactless pad if you scan a ticket on the scanner. They are far enough apart.

 

[35B]

It's possible to do it if you put your phone to the card reader instead of the scanner. Sort of like some people sometimes put the sugar in the fridge and the milk in the cupboard after making a cup of tea.

It's not possible (unlike Ticketer bus ticket machines) to trigger the contactless pad if you scan a ticket on the scanner. They are far enough apart.

Agreed on both points. But, and I note from my own experience, it is possible to be absolutely convinced of having done one, and to find the evidence unequivocal that one has done the other.

 

[jon81uk]

I indeed suspect this is what happened. You do sometimes see people putting paper tickets onto the yellow pad and wondering why it doesn't work, so maybe signage needs improving.

Although some countries do have single-use RFID tickets, so if you've never had to use a mag stripe ticket before I can see why they would be putting those onto the contactless pad.

It’s absolutely possible to do the wrong scan, and I’ve done it.

All that’s needed is a little bit of distraction and to hold the image to the card reader; the gate opens and the wrong ticket is engaged because it’s triggered contactless.

A mildly embarrassing phone call later, and all was sorted.

Yes but its still the user putting the phone near the pad, its an accidental error. I don't think it is possible to hold the phone at the barcode scanner and the NFC be read by the contactless pad unless the phone is at a very weird angle, which means the barcode wouldn't have scanned anyway.

 

[MrJeeves]

Although some countries do have sing-use RFID tickets

Such as Scotland for the Glasgow Subway

 

[35B]

Although some countries do have single-use RFID tickets, so if you've never had to use a mag stripe ticket before I can see why they would be putting those onto the contactless pad.


Yes but its still the user putting the phone near the pad, its an accidental error. I don't think it is possible to hold the phone at the barcode scanner and the NFC be read by the contactless pad unless the phone is at a very weird angle, which means the barcode wouldn't have scanned anyway.

Technically, I agree. But when you have two systems running in parallel, with different modes of operation, the reality is that this creates a trap for the unwary - or merely inattentive.

 

[Haywain]

if you've never had to use a mag stripe ticket before I can see why they would be putting those onto the contactless pad.

I saw someone waving a CCST ticket at the barcode reader the other day (no barcode on the CCST ticket either).

 

[Bishops]

It can and does happen on Ticketer bus ticket machines, though. One of the many reasons why these are badly designed - the idea is that you put your device or card in the same place whatever method of payment you are using (bar cash) but if the phone gets confused it's easy to use the wrong one.

This happenned to me a few weeks back - and arriva still didnt refund me even with proof of my monthly bus ticket. now i just turn on NFC before i use it then turn off again to stop that happening

 

[Trackman]

I'm unsure what is going on with the Ticketer bus ticket machines (which I am familiar with).
Is the issue when you are scanning a ticket and the machine is picking up contactless payment as well?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm unsure what is going on with the Ticketer bus ticket machines (which I am familiar with).
Is the issue when you are scanning a ticket and the machine is picking up contactless payment as well?

Yes, there are circumstances under which that can happen because you put the phone in the same place to scan a barcode ticket as you do to use contactless payment. Bus company apps generally disable NFC when you show the ticket, though some poorly designed ones may not, and Apple Pay does (I assume Google Pay also does) but it is possible to fumble things a bit (e.g. accidentally take the Apple Pay pass off the screen) and end up tapping in by mistake instead.

 

[kkong]

Such as Scotland for the Glasgow Subway

Off-topic, but as of today, Contactless Pay As You Go (PAYG) is enabled on the Subway.

 

[Bishops]

I'm unsure what is going on with the Ticketer bus ticket machines (which I am familiar with).
Is the issue when you are scanning a ticket and the machine is picking up contactless payment as well?

Exactly that - as you have to hold the QR code under the scanner which is directly above the contactless pad. And sometime it may be a poor scanner so you have to either hold it closer or further away from it

 

[James H]

Yes, there are circumstances under which that can happen because you put the phone in the same place to scan a barcode ticket as you do to use contactless payment. Bus company apps generally disable NFC when you show the ticket, though some poorly designed ones may not, and Apple Pay does (I assume Google Pay also does) but it is possible to fumble things a bit (e.g. accidentally take the Apple Pay pass off the screen) and end up tapping in by mistake instead.

I had a problem when using a multi-operator East Sussex ticket purchased on the Stagecoach app (which didn't disable NFC) on a Ticketer machine on a Brighton & Hove bus.

 

[MrJeeves]

Apple Pay does (I assume Google Pay also does)

Google Wallet has it as an option, but it is not the default.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the default on Apple Pay, I noticed it again about an hour ago when I went to the Co-op and wondered why it wasn't paying when I still had the Co-op members' card on screen.

 

[OscarH]

It's the default on Apple Pay, I noticed it again about an hour ago when I went to the Co-op and wondered why it wasn't paying when I still had the Co-op members' card on screen.

I don't think you'd know that - by it being an option I believe MrJeeves is talking about it being an option the pass creator sets. That said I think it should be the default frankly.

 

[Trackman]

Yes, there are circumstances under which that can happen because you put the phone in the same place to scan a barcode ticket as you do to use contactless payment. Bus company apps generally disable NFC when you show the ticket, though some poorly designed ones may not, and Apple Pay does (I assume Google Pay also does) but it is possible to fumble things a bit (e.g. accidentally take the Apple Pay pass off the screen) and end up tapping in by mistake instead.

Just to understand things, I have a ticket that needs to be scanned, but I have not activated my Apple Pay card option on my phone (double click left right bottom) surely the machine would not pick NFC?