If all these services depend on immigration, then the comparatively massive immigration we’ve had over the last couple of decades should have sorted them out, right?
Ideally, those services would never have depended upon immigration.
That was basically my original point.
Ok - Reform arent going to do that either. Well they will "invest" our money in the UK population of millionaires obviously................
Wouldn't say its recent. He's calm and assured when he's in his usual state of being able to blame someone or something else, but every time he or his party are challenged he becomes one of thinnest skinned people in politics, absolutely rattled by the slightest pushback. It has helped him that the media has been largely pro-Reform or at least Reform-curious but the tables are beginning to turn.
Labour really ought to learn not to throw stones.
It doesn't, but it's a bat out of the park for Reform to point out that twice now Labour will have accused them of wrongdoing, and on both occasions nothing has been found untoward by HMRC, and in response, three times Labour seniors have been found to have broken the law or underpaid tax.
The accusation I've seen is "avoided nearly £600,000 in corporation tax", so they don't seem to have suggested that he has acted illegally.
Correct, but in making this allegation of tax avoidance, Tice/Reform have immediately responded by pointing out that Labour Party Property Ltd hasn't paid corporation tax in 26 years and is 6 months late on its statutory accounting deadline. It's not a good look is it?
I disagree. The UK government, as others do, could tighten rules if they wanted to. The directors of a company have a duty to make decisions in the best interest of the company, and that won't normally include paying more tax than they have to. It might not be moral by some people's standards, but I think Labour ministers committing criminal offences is a bigger problem if they're going to try to slate Reform on the very same grounds. Everybody wants to pay less tax, and most people do what they can within the law to do so. Companies are no different.
What we need is a media who will do a better job of finding all this out and putting pressure on governments to actually legislate in this field, regardless of who is involved. Of course both the Tice and Rayner stuff came out because of media investigations, but there still isn't enough of a push towards wider reforms, probably because 1) the media owners are engaged in the same practice so don't want this, but are happy to scapegoat politicians to pretend to care, and 2) overcoming this involves effort and it's much easier for politicians and journalists to engage in a game of sycophantic Tetris and lick each other's rears all the time.
I don't think that well off companies using legalistic tricks to con the taxpayer out of what they're owed is moral by any reasonable persons standards
The sums involved are definitively smaller
They aren't.
Yes, that's fair, and I've no problem with companies getting R&D tax credits, or using other intentional schemes. When they're using complex international arrangements involving shell companies, miscategorising their organisation, or otherwise generally abusing the system, then I feel the state should be more aggressive.
Because the government needs to change the law. Can't blame a corporate tax advisor for advising a company how to reduce their tax.
Nor do I think people support Labour ministers breaking the law. In fact after Reeves' and Rayner's mishaps their ratings took further hits.
Indeed, but then some are criminal offences and some are not, so scale is not the only factor.
Well, I think they are? They're pointing to Reform multiple times to say HMRC should investigate taxes, while themselves being caught out evading taxes, even if accidentally. Nobody would've heard about Labour Party Property Ltd if they hadn't pointed at Tice and his avoidance, but now LPP Ltd is going to be under scrutiny for late filings and also having spent nearly three decades not paying corporation tax. It's just not very clever. They're meant to try and boost their poll ratings, not draw attention to their own questionable activities. And the sums involved in LPP's example are tens of millions of pounds, if we're to talk about scale.
Back to square one of my point really - the government is responsible for these rules, and could change them if they wanted to.
These Reform whoppers line up to wang on (hypocritically) on about patriotism and britishness and all that kind of stuff while hiding their money and not chipping in to fund the things we all need to make life close to bearable. It stinks and no special pleading will change my mind. I know right from wrong and I don't care if he was allowed to to do it. It is wrong, doubly so, for an elected member of parliament. Wrong.
Where did the money come from? Why wont he say? What is he hiding? Why wont the media drag his finances through the mud like Rayner? If he has nothing to hide why wont he disclose his finances? Becuase Farage wont do that it seems fair to draw inferences from the silence.
No they don't. I want to pay the tax I am required to pay based on my earnings. In any event my tax is taken at source so I cant use any of these clever tricks the rich get to use to legally avoid tax thus robbing our public services of funding needed to keep the show on the road. But hey, its only the little people impacted.........................
Do you not think this kind of behavioral is morally wrong?
Hardly the same scale though is it? Using pension payments to slightly reduce the PAYE tax bill for an employed person on a normal wage is not the same as a £600k tax bill.
Yet it is also a valid political position to hold that people shouldn't need to voluntarily pay more tax than they're legally obliged to. This isn't specific to Reform - it's been the mantra of the Conservative party since inception. Maybe you disagree with it but millions of people in the UK would support a lower tax regime and paying what is required.
This makes no sense. We are aware of this allegations precisely because every major media outlet has covered it.
Well HMRC are entitled to investigate his house purchase. The fact that they haven't come out and said he evaded tax is telling.
Maybe you are in a minority of people who want to voluntarily pay more tax, in which case I'm sure HMRC would accept a donation.
Yes I do.
No but my point was that Labour are raising these things as if £600k is going to make a dent while they've got a limited company which received £30m in rental income with little to no corporation tax paid, and their accounts are half a year overdue. It's fine to criticise Reform for paying their tax in the smallest way possible, but it's pretty daft to do it when you have a company with accounts so overdue and questions over its own tax affairs.
Only taxed above the personal allowance, and the 25% tax free lump sum, and currently free of inheritance tax, etc.
Agreed. My point being that a full state pension uses around 100% of the personal allowance making the entirety of most private pensions subject to tax from the first £1 paid.
Yeah I agree it's not as tax efficient as it used to be. And I think the parity between the personal allowance and the annual income from a full new state pension is a sign of a silly and unsustainable system. Something's going to have to change there.
Indeed, and the biggest hypocrisy of all is that the right-wing media claim to be the only ones who understand working-class people. So why is Rayner the devil incarnate while the real elite - rich Reform bigwigs - can do no wrong? Funny that.
I think that is doing what many do, not fully appreciate the complexities and interaction of the tax system.
I am sure they would - would they also like fewer public services?
Oddly enough I cant find it in the BBC website or sky news or on the front pages of any of the print media i saw at the station. I HAVE seen it on social media though.
Where did the money come from? I bet it wasn't his pocket.
No - I don't want to pay more or less tax. I want to pay the tax I am required to pay based on my earnings. Mine is taken at source via PAYE and I will never be lucky enough to have to doge £600k in tax so can be sanctimonious about it. I wish we could do the same to the likes of Tice and his chums.
No idea what the last 2 are. I am not married and the kids are adults. If you can figure out how to fit a charge to a Victorian terraced house I could buy an electric car but it seems hard - not much tax dodging for a single bloke on PAYE!
I am beyond this on the one hand on the other hand/whataboutery approach to Reform. They are wrong uns, liars, grifters and hypocrites and this is a prime example .
I am sure he has. It doesn't make it right.
Quite right - i meant to say MP
They may argue that there are ways of finding public services which aren't just taxes. Something only the Greens seem to be putting forward at the moment while every other party obsessed over 'balancing the books' as if the British economy is like a wallet.
I mean the whole thing came from a journo at The Times: https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-deputy-leader-richard-tice-tax-5r93t6dg8
Well Labour are potentially about to find out when Labour Party Property Ltd is investigated.
I don't know, but then there's 650 MPs and I don't know where any of them got the money to buy their houses.
As Tice has done.
The last two are investment schemes where you can invest money and get 20-50% tax relief. Nobody is eligible for every single form of tax avoidance like company cars or childcare vouchers but tens of millions of people in the UK do it. In fact a majority of the UK population engage in tax avoidance. That adds up to a lot more.
Per person, yes, but when almost every working person is benefitting from pension contributions tax relief, that adds up to an order of magnitude higher than Tice's £600k over 4 years.
That's fair enough, but my original point, which I still believe stands, is that if Labour want to rebuild their reputation and have a chance at the next election, they need a better political strategy than to throw their arms in the air at a Reform MP doing things above board while they themselves have been caught out not doing so. I would rather a Labour government than a Reform one, and I would quite like Labour to get a grip and focus on themselves instead of trying to criticise Reform who at this point in time appear to have better PR teams.
