Grand Central apply for Newcastle - Brighton direct

[Tazi Hupefi]

In the exceptionally unlikely event these services ever get approved, never mind firmly scheduled - they have new build stock in mind from Hitachi, with ex Avanti Voyagers in the interim.

 

[stevieinselby]

Hi all. Sorry to ask, do we know yet what stock will be used on this route?

Unicorns, hoverbuses, hyperloop and magic carpets.

There is no "will be used on this route", it was always very unlikely that it will come to fruition, and the recent announcements of open access applications being turned down cements that position. It ain't happening.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The best case option I can see is that the Cross Country Reading to Newcastle services are extended to Guilford with a call at Wokingham. As I can't see Grand Central getting it as there just to much revenue abstraction.

 

[swt_passenger]

The best case option I can see is that the Cross Country Reading to Newcastle services are extended to Guilford with a call at Wokingham. As I can't see Grand Central getting it as there just to much revenue abstraction.

If XC ever had enough stock why wouldn’t they reinstate the Southampton extensions? Guildford was removed from their network because it wasn’t needed, and route knowledge for diversions during engineering work can be retained by running ECS as they do already.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The best case option I can see is that the Cross Country Reading to Newcastle services are extended to Guilford with a call at Wokingham. As I can't see Grand Central getting it as there just to much revenue abstraction.

Even if XC is able to reinstate the hourly Newcastle-Reading service, I'd call that the best case option at the moment!

 

[The Planner]

Even if XC is able to reinstate the hourly Newcastle-Reading service, I'd call that the best case option at the moment!

Its the only real option.

 

[trainmania100]

I'm guessing this didn't get approved? As surely for a December 2026 start we'd have heard about driver route learning etc by now, clearances etc

 

[Bald Rick]

Not yet been determined either way.

 

[pdeaves]

As I understand, Grand Central never formally applied; they did some industry consultations and engagement but didn't complete the 'paper'-work.

 

[Driver068]

I know this may be as long as a piece of string question however with GC applying for this proposed route to start in Dec 2026 then when would GC be expecting a decision. I only as as they would have to take into consideration they may need to open a new depot, find a location for new offices and also train crew recruitment. So with an application like this then what would the expectations be between now and December 2026.

Would this also mean a decision might not be made in time meaning a delay beyond Dec 2026 for services to commence

Cheers in advance

 

[MotCO]

I know this may be as long as a piece of string question however with GC applying for this proposed route to start in Dec 2026 then when would GC be expecting a decision. I only as as they would have to take into consideration they may need to open a new depot, find a location for new offices and also train crew recruitment. So with an application like this then what would the expectations be between now and December 2026.

Would this also mean a decision might not be made in time meaning a delay beyond Dec 2026 for services to commence

Cheers in advance

And find some rolling stock?

 

[The Planner]

I know this may be as long as a piece of string question however with GC applying for this proposed route to start in Dec 2026 then when would GC be expecting a decision. I only as as they would have to take into consideration they may need to open a new depot, find a location for new offices and also train crew recruitment. So with an application like this then what would the expectations be between now and December 2026.

Would this also mean a decision might not be made in time meaning a delay beyond Dec 2026 for services to commence

Cheers in advance

If XC put back all of their Reading York/Newcastle services, this is dead in the water anyway.

 

[Snow1964]

If XC put back all of their Reading York/Newcastle services, this is dead in the water anyway.

But 6 years on from start of Covid (and about 4 years since restrictions ended) XC haven't restored services, and have no short term plan to restore them either

Regulator has to be fair, and on current form XC might not use them in next few months/years (or ever), so as it is approaching 5 years since restrictions ended can hardly justify continuing to keep paths retained but unused forever.

Go back 2 years, if XC hinted at restoring them soon, but today still in same place, and could still be in same place 2 years time (just talk, no actual change). The way I see it was GC application didn't cause service restoration so have to assume it might be never.

 

[GoneSouth]

If XC put back all of their Reading York/Newcastle services, this is dead in the water anyway.

XC might commit to running all of the Reading Newcastle services, but probably then won’t !

 

[weeklycommuter]

If XC put back all of their Reading York/Newcastle services, this is dead in the water anyway.

XC might commit to running all of the Reading Newcastle services, but probably then won’t !

The XC Reading York service will run almost every hour in the May 2026 Timetable with some extending to and from Newcastle.
This looks to be close to the restoration of the full hourly service.

 

[GoneSouth]

The XC Reading York service will run almost every hour in the May 2026 Timetable with some extending to and from Newcastle.
This looks to be close to the restoration of the full hourly service.

On paper maybe!

 

[Stephen42]

But 6 years on from start of Covid (and about 4 years since restrictions ended) XC haven't restored services, and have no short term plan to restore them either

Regulator has to be fair, and on current form XC might not use them in next few months/years (or ever), so as it is approaching 5 years since restrictions ended can hardly justify continuing to keep paths retained but unused forever.

Go back 2 years, if XC hinted at restoring them soon, but today still in same place, and could still be in same place 2 years time (just talk, no actual change). The way I see it was GC application didn't cause service restoration so have to assume it might be never.

The Network Rail representations suggests there are aspirations as soon as May 2026.

There is an increase in planned CrossCountry services from May 2026 between Reading and York, which will require an uplift in their access rights and currently that application has not been to industry consultation or submitted to ORR, but is being discussed with Network Rail. These additional paths are reflected in the timetable offered at the development date D-26. These reflect the 2 train per hour (tph) Birmingham-York CrossCountry services which were part of the ECML Event Steering Group (ESG) specification

The following amount of Grand Central proposed services included in this application conflict with CrossCountry services that are additional in the May 2026 timetable when compared to the December 2025 timetable:
• 3 Grand Central SX services running between Brighton-Newcastle and 2 Grand Central SX Newcastle-Brighton.
• 3 Grand Central SO services running between Brighton-Newcastle and 2 Grand Central SO Newcastle-Brighton

The CrossCountry paths have also been assessed by Timetable Change Risk Assessment Groups (TCRAG); the capacity for the CrossCountry services to run in and out of Birmingham New Street was an assumption of the December 2022 Concept Train Plan. For clarification, as stated, although these services are in the New Working Timetable (NWTT) for May 2026, they do not currently have access rights.

Based on the paths requested that's half of the 5 each way on weekdays that are in place of planned CrossCountry paths (already on RTT but without access rights) without considering any uplifts in future timetables. That's also ignoring all the other conflicts and issues that Network Rail point out elsewhere in the document.

 

[MotCO]

But 6 years on from start of Covid (and about 4 years since restrictions ended) XC haven't restored services, and have no short term plan to restore them either

Regulator has to be fair, and on current form XC might not use them in next few months/years (or ever), so as it is approaching 5 years since restrictions ended can hardly justify continuing to keep paths retained but unused forever.

Go back 2 years, if XC hinted at restoring them soon, but today still in same place, and could still be in same place 2 years time (just talk, no actual change). The way I see it was GC application didn't cause service restoration so have to assume it might be never.

The XC Reading York service will run almost every hour in the May 2026 Timetable with some extending to and from Newcastle.
This looks to be close to the restoration of the full hourly service.

Would XC be running these additional services had GC not proposed a competing service? It looks as though it could be a spoiling measure.

Also, given that XC can't currently run longer trains where there is a demand for them, does XC have any suitable, available rolling stock?

 

[317 forever]

If XC put back all of their Reading York/Newcastle services, this is dead in the water anyway.

What would look odd is if Arriva franchise XC reinstate such services, preventing Arriva commercial company GC from introducing this new service.

 

[JonathanH]

What would look odd is if Arriva franchise XC reinstate such services, preventing Arriva commercial company GC from introducing this new service.

It isn't odd. Arriva have to run the trains that DfT want them to run. I think it has been previously explained that the part of Arriva running XC is not allowed to collude with the part of Arriva running GC.

 

[Snow1964]

The Network Rail representations suggests there are aspirations as soon as May 2026.

An aspiration is closer to fantasy than actually operating 100%

It isn't odd. Arriva have to run the trains that DfT want them to run. I think it has been previously explained that the part of Arriva running XC is not allowed to collude with the part of Arriva running GC.

Even if the divisions are officially at arms length, the group resources are still allocated by corporate Board. They are going to prioritise whichever division is more profitable per £1 of capital allocated, because ultimately will be trying to maximise profits and keep shareholders happy. The XC operation isn't going to be a moneymaker in few years time

 

[Stephen42]

An aspiration is closer to fantasy than actually operating 100%

My use of aspiration is based on my uncertainty around whether XC would be granted the access rights for the paths it has bid. As per the quote they appear in the timetable on RTT and I'd expect XC to run them if rights are granted (reliably may be another question).

Even if the divisions are officially at arms length, the group resources are still allocated by corporate Board. They are going to prioritise whichever division is more profitable per £1 of capital allocated, because ultimately will be trying to maximise profits and keep shareholders happy. The XC operation isn't going to be a moneymaker in few years time

That sort of behaviour would be a clear breach of contract and likely face serious consequences. The Grand Central team have stated they haven't had contact with XC aside from the formal consultation process. XC objected to the Grand Central proposal in that formal consultation.

 

[GoneSouth]

My use of aspiration is based on my uncertainty around whether XC would be granted the access rights for the paths it has bid. As per the quote they appear in the timetable on RTT and I'd expect XC to run them if rights are granted (reliably may be another question).

That sort of behaviour would be a clear breach of contract and likely face serious consequences. The Grand Central team have stated they haven't had contact with XC aside from the formal consultation process. XC objected to the Grand Central proposal in that formal consultation.

I’m no fan of open access and it’s failings, but XC objecting to someone else running services it has the paths for and has had no interest in running for 6 years is a bit rude

 

[JamesT]

I’m no fan of open access and it’s failings, but XC objecting to someone else running services it has the paths for and has had no interest in running for 6 years is a bit rude

No interest? Or not had the approval from the DfT to run them?

 

[JonathanH]

Even if the divisions are officially at arms length, the group resources are still allocated by corporate Board. They are going to prioritise whichever division is more profitable per £1 of capital allocated, because ultimately will be trying to maximise profits and keep shareholders happy. The XC operation isn't going to be a moneymaker in few years time

Well yes, at one level a team operating GC within Arriva can observe that there is a gap in the timetable and seek to fill it, but the part of Arriva operating XC can't choose to give up paths to the part of Arriva operating GC to ensure that Arriva continues to bring in some revenue from the railway. The DfT would appear to be able to require the XC part of Arriva to object to the GC application.

 

[VItraveller]

I’m guessing because we haven’t heard anything that December 2026 opening is very unlikely, if the paths are actually granted.
It’s a shame, I would’ve liked the direct service from Birmingham to Brighton without needing to change in London, and having a direct link to Gatwick Airport from the north east would’ve been pretty cool.

 

[Howardh]

I’m guessing because we haven’t heard anything that December 2026 opening is very unlikely, if the paths are actually granted.
It’s a shame, I would’ve liked the direct service from Birmingham to Brighton without needing to change in London, and having a direct link to Gatwick Airport from the north east would’ve been pretty cool.

Manchester to New Street Birmingham, cross platforms for a direct Brighton service avoiding London is very appealing. But if they are cross-country trains, less so as I try to avoid them for long journeys!

 

[Bald Rick]

Manchester to New Street Birmingham, cross platforms for a direct Brighton service avoiding London is very appealing. But if they are cross-country trains, less so as I try to avoid them for long journeys!

You can already do it with one change, at Southampton. Rather easier than at New St, and many more opportunities than with this proposal, were it to happen (which I doubt).

 

[John R]

I’m guessing because we haven’t heard anything that December 2026 opening is very unlikely, if the paths are actually granted.
It’s a shame, I would’ve liked the direct service from Birmingham to Brighton without needing to change in London, and having a direct link to Gatwick Airport from the north east would’ve been pretty cool.

Pretty cool maybe, but from the NE, how many airline passengers are going to want a very circuitous long journey, with only 5 services a day, when you've got half hourly services as far as London, and then a change to Thameslink. Even easier if you can make the change at Stevenage. Think about the return journey. Just miss one of the 5 services? It would be pretty tedious waiting for the next one when you could be half way home travelling through London before the next one even sets off on its grand tour of the Midlands.

 

[The Ham]

Pretty cool maybe, but from the NE, how many airline passengers are going to want a very circuitous long journey, with only 5 services a day, when you've got half hourly services as far as London, and then a change to Thameslink. Even easier if you can make the change at Stevenage. Think about the return journey. Just miss one of the 5 services? It would be pretty tedious waiting for the next one when you could be half way home travelling through London before the next one even sets off on its grand tour of the Midlands.

With all such services the main market is likely to be people doing various segments of the overall route rather than doing anything even as much as 50% of the distance, let alone the whole way.

However, there will be some, and if they are doing so due to price (I.e. advanced ticket) they wouldn't be getting in the next train whatever the route, unless there's disruption and then chances are going the same route may not be an option.

Likewise, going direct can be useful. As you just sit in your seat and (mostly) stay there until you get to the other end.

I suspect that there's probably even other reasons.