Excessive New Street XC change times

[WillC]

Leeds - Southampton via New Street, the change is an hour (changing from the North East - South West to Manchester - South coast service). You literally just miss the preceding service. I think the northbound change is also pretty long.
Couldn’t XC do better here, like 10mins would be enough). I’m no fan of the shopping centre masquerading as a train station that is New Street, but an hour..?

 

[JonathanH]

This is hardly a new phenomenon.

The southbound Birmingham to Bournemouth service has run in broadly its current path from Birmingham, just after the top of the hour, for at least 35 years. xx06 in BR days, xx03 more recently.

The Leeds to Birmingham trains have similarly left Leeds between xx10 and xx15 over that period as well.

It isn't straightforward to completely rewrite the timetable for one particular connection.

 

[The Planner]

Leeds - Southampton via New Street, the change is an hour (changing from the North East - South West to Manchester - South coast service). You literally just miss the preceding service. I think the northbound change is also pretty long.
Couldn’t XC do better here, like 10mins would be enough). I’m no fan of the shopping centre masquerading as a train station that is New Street, but an hour..?

The Northbound change is on the minimum it can be at New St at 12 minutes. xx.51 arrival from Bournemoutb for the xx.03 departure to Leeds.

 

[WillC]

This is hardly a new phenomenon.

The southbound Birmingham to Bournemouth service has run in broadly its current path from Birmingham, just after the top of the hour, for at least 35 years. xx06 in BR days, xx03 more recently.

The Leeds to Birmingham trains have similarly left Leeds between xx10 and xx15 over that period as well.

It isn't straightforward to completely rewrite the timetable for one particular connection.

I wasn’t suggesting it was new, just asking for a justification. Surely they could get it closer to a half hour with small adjustment? It’s a fairly important cross over I would have thought.

 

[The Planner]

I wasn’t suggesting it was new, just asking for a justification. Surely they could get it closer to a half hour with small adjustment? It’s a fairly important cross over I would have thought.

Its not a small adjustment at all. XC runs on a half hour frequency and the flows don't all do the same thing. You have Newcastle Reading and Scotland South West on one side, and Manchester Bournemouth and Manchester Bristol on the other.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

I wasn’t suggesting it was new, just asking for a justification. Surely they could get it closer to a half hour with small adjustment? It’s a fairly important cross over I would have thought.

Would you have any example of the sort of 'small adjustment' could move a path by half an hour through New Street?

 

[Segedunum]

I wasn’t suggesting it was new, just asking for a justification. Surely they could get it closer to a half hour with small adjustment? It’s a fairly important cross over I would have thought.

Without rewriting the entire East Coast Mainline again, you can't just make the NE/SW service half an hour different. It'd also be right on the heels of the Newcastle to Liverpool TPE (which leaves at xx02, let's say this new XC path leaves at xx10). You'd make it to somewhere around Garforth (if you're lucky) before you've now run out of space as there's an almost bare minimum headway between the 2Txx York to Leeds stopper and the 1Pxx TPE to Manchester.

If you waited at York to let the 1Pxx TPE go, tough luck. The 1Bxx Northern to Blackpool departs right behind it. Going behind that? You'd clash with the 1Kxx TPE from Hull to Liverpool between York and Leeds once that joins from the Selby direction. What's the next path? The XC NE-SW service as we have it now.

No such thing as a 'small adjustment' by wildly changing the time of a CrossCountry service. You break half of the network in the process, not to mention a load of other connections.

 

[XC victim]

Its not a small adjustment at all. XC runs on a half hour frequency and the flows don't all do the same thing. You have Newcastle Reading and Scotland South West on one side, and Manchester Bournemouth and Manchester Bristol on the other.

But unfortunately the Newcastle to Reading has not been fully reinstated, so Birmingham to Reading is hourly with a few additional services. Thus this travelling from the North East / Yorkshire to Oxford / Reading are left with an hour wait in Birmingham New Street. (And conversely a string of missed connections at Birmingham travelling North)

 

[D1537]

But unfortunately the Newcastle to Reading has not been fully reinstated, so Birmingham to Reading is hourly with a few additional services. Thus this travelling from the North East / Yorkshire to Oxford / Reading are left with an hour wait in Birmingham New Street. (And conversely a string of missed connections at Birmingham travelling North)

To be honest if I was travelling from the North East to Reading (and very possibly Oxford, or for that matter Southampton) I'd be going via London. Given XC's prices, it may well be cheaper as well, and you don't have to travel on XC which is always a bonus.

 

[Russel]

With the amount of times trains get held outside New Street for a platform to become available, I find anything less than about 12 minutes can get a little tight.

 

[NCT]

My favourite subject, and some other people's least favourite subject.

To me this stems from wanting to provide as many direct services as possible, and connections suffer as a direct consequence of this.

If Cross Country was simplified to simpler half-hourly patterns, say 2tph Manchester - Reading (avoiding mentioning Northampton for fear of incurring someone's wrath) and 2tph South West - North East, with the 2 patterns timed to be roughly 15 minutes apart at New Street, then nobody would have to spend more than ~15 minutes at New Street.

 

[Bald Rick]

This chestnut is probably the most elderly of the vast array of vintage chestnuts about the railway.

It’s quite simple.

At busy stations with multiple routes serving them, it is simply not possible to have everywhere to everywhere on a convenient connection time. Some connection pairs will have excellent timings, some will be a bit too tight, and some will be poor. It’s even more tricky when certain services link several of these busy connecting stations together. Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Reading, Preston, Bristol TM, Manchester Picc, amongst orhers all have this issue. And almost all of them are served by Cross Country.

 

[NCT]

This chestnut is probably the most elderly of the vast array of vintage chestnuts about the railway.

It’s quite simple.

At busy stations with multiple routes serving them, it is simply not possible to have everywhere to everywhere on a convenient connection time. Some connection pairs will have excellent timings, some will be a bit too tight, and some will be poor. It’s even more tricky when certain services link several of these busy connecting stations together. Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Reading, Preston, Bristol TM, Manchester Picc, amongst orhers all have this issue. And almost all of them are served by Cross Country.

And I think the problem is exacerbated when you are trying to be too clever with running everywhere-to-everywhere direct trains. When each arm is approximately half hourly, swapping which arms you connect directly every half hour means that you can't provide a connection between the non-direct arms without falling foul of MCT.

I don't think 'some will be good some will be bad' is good enough. There are network topologies for optimising in large and small stations. In small stations with small MCTs you do Swiss-style concentrated arrivals and departures. In large stations with large MCTs you run a network of simple half-hourly services so most people won't have interchange times of longer than 30 minutes. The UK overprioritises direct services at the expense of connections. Direct trains and connections should have more equal weightings in network topological design. Connections should be actively designed (not in terms of isolated individual timings, but as a generalised concept), not just left to chance.

 

[181]

To me this stems from wanting to provide as many direct services as possible, and connections suffer as a direct consequence of this.

But unfortunately the Newcastle to Reading has not been fully reinstated, so Birmingham to Reading is hourly with a few additional services. Thus this travelling from the North East / Yorkshire to Oxford / Reading are left with an hour wait in Birmingham New Street.

The second of these quotes is the key point -- we did have a high frequency 'everywhere to everywhere service', and what we now have is the same timetable with gaps in it, rather than one designed for the smaller number of trains.

Would you have any example of the sort of 'small adjustment' could move a path by half an hour through New Street?

It was a small adjustment of the wrong kind (from my point of view -- maybe it was for the greater good) that meant that journeys from the northern WCMl to the Thames Valley also now take an hour longer than they used to (or perhaps only 30 minutes longer in hours when there is a Newcastle-Reading), as the Scotland-Euston train no longer connects at Wolverhampton with the Manchester-Bournemouth. This doesn't solve the OP's problem, but it does show that small adjustments can sometimes make a significant difference.

 

[XC victim]

If Cross Country was simplified to simpler half-hourly patterns, say 2tph Manchester - Reading (avoiding mentioning Northampton for fear of incurring someone's wrath) and 2tph South West - North East, with the 2 patterns timed to be roughly 15 minutes apart at New Street, then nobody would have to spend more than ~15 minutes at New Street.

I have often thought this would be a very good idea, but the issue is that changing trains on the CrossCountry network, especially at Birmingham New St, can be a real nightmare. I (a relatively fit and healthy individual) find it difficult enough, but I imagine if you are elderly, disabled or travelling with children it can be very off putting.

Due to the overcrowding on CrossCountry trains it can be really difficult to find a seat, if you have reserved seats, there is Esther invariably some sat in it and you have to ask them to move, or the reservation system isn’t working or you can’t physically get to the seats because the number of people standing. You also have to find somewhere for your luggage. It is hard enough doing all this once on your journey, but having to do it again at Birmingham is a real pain, which is why I try to get through services where possible (I so wish they would bring back the Newcastle to Reading services )

 

[WTT Gremlin]

The second of these quotes is the key point -- we did have a high frequency 'everywhere to everywhere service', and what we now have is the same timetable with gaps in it, rather than one designed for the smaller number of trains.

It was a small adjustment of the wrong kind (from my point of view -- maybe it was for the greater good) that meant that journeys from the northern WCMl to the Thames Valley also now take an hour longer than they used to (or perhaps only 30 minutes longer in hours when there is a Newcastle-Reading), as the Scotland-Euston train no longer connects at Wolverhampton with the Manchester-Bournemouth. This doesn't solve the OP's problem, but it does show that small adjustments can sometimes make a significant difference.

I can understand your perspective, but would add that rarely are timetable changes made in isolation, and rarer are completely trade-off free changes.

The fundamental reality of the British network is that it does not have anywhere close to the capability to accommodate the full breath of service aspirations.

To me this stems from wanting to provide as many direct services as possible, and connections suffer as a direct consequence of this.

Correct... however... the desire for direct services comes from users and stakeholders... so...

And I think the problem is exacerbated when you are trying to be too clever with running everywhere-to-everywhere direct trains. When each arm is approximately half hourly, swapping which arms you connect directly every half hour means that you can't provide a connection between the non-direct arms without falling foul of MCT.

I don't think 'some will be good some will be bad' is good enough. There are network topologies for optimising in large and small stations. In small stations with small MCTs you do Swiss-style concentrated arrivals and departures. In large stations with large MCTs you run a network of simple half-hourly services so most people won't have interchange times of longer than 30 minutes. The UK overprioritises direct services at the expense of connections. Direct trains and connections should have more equal weightings in network topological design. Connections should be actively designed (not in terms of isolated individual timings, but as a generalised concept), not just left to chance.

Unless in the network topology, it has a 'how we will ensure change in passenger culture/behaviour", then the end result will be providing less effective, less efficient, poorer service.

I have the perfect solution... given how everyone always says how cheap and good value rail travel is, GBR could try the imitate airline model of pricing passengers off direct services, and think of all the add-ons, luggage would be much less of a problem on a Voyager if carrying anything but small rucksack cost £20 and up, whilst pocketing all the savings and economies of scale of maximising the cheapest network system possible. Plus, everyone could benefit from the famously reliable, short, and convenient connections which airline itineraries have. Some sarcasm may have been used in the advocacy of this solution.

 

[MontyP]

This chestnut is probably the most elderly of the vast array of vintage chestnuts about the railway.

It’s quite simple.

At busy stations with multiple routes serving them, it is simply not possible to have everywhere to everywhere on a convenient connection time. Some connection pairs will have excellent timings, some will be a bit too tight, and some will be poor. It’s even more tricky when certain services link several of these busy connecting stations together. Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Reading, Preston, Bristol TM, Manchester Picc, amongst orhers all have this issue. And almost all of them are served by Cross Country.

Oh for the days when XC was hourly on the two axes (NW-SE and NE-SW), both with a 10-15 min dwell at New St at the same time to enable interchange between the two services!

There isn't even a connection from the new fast Leeds-Sheffield into the intermittent York-Reading services (which presumably one day will return to the full hourly service). And no onward connections from Reading to anywhere useful without waiting for the Bournemouth XC service half an hour behind.

 

[JonathanH]

Oh for the days when XC was hourly on the two axes (NW-SE and NE-SW), both with a 10-15 min dwell at New St at the same time to enable interchange between the two services!

When was that? A look at the 1994 timetable shows missed connections exactly as described in this thread. While there were some good connections, and clearly more mixed departure / destination pairs, it certainly wasn't an era when the service was perfectly set up.

To be honest, the Operation Princess timetable, had it worked, arguably did optimise connections and through running across Birmingham New Street, but as we know, it didn't.

 

[MontyP]

When was that? A look at the 1994 timetable shows missed connections exactly as described in this thread. While there were some good connections, and clearly more mixed departure / destination pairs, it certainly wasn't an era when the service was perfectly set up.

To be honest, the Operation Princess timetable, had it worked, arguably did optimise connections and through running across Birmingham New Street, but as we know, it didn't.

I'm probably thinking of the mid 80s when I was at university in Southampton and used to travel back to Yorkshire.

The 1981 timetable has NE-SW services at New St arriving xx10, departing xx15 most hours. And NW-SE arriving xx06 and departing xx20. Some variation as there are a handful of NW-SW services and the daily Newcastle/Leeds to Poole service. I think a similar pattern stayed in place until the early 90s.

 

[NCT]

Unless in the network topology, it has a 'how we will ensure change in passenger culture/behaviour", then the end result will be providing less effective, less efficient, poorer service.

Agreed. TfL is relatively good at nudging behaviour changes and not pandering. Central government land is a different story altogether.