Penalty fine for railcard

[skittles321]

Hi everyone,

I was travelling with a friend to Cambridgeshire and because I had once before been on a Four-together ticket, I had misremembered that it was 4 and thought that you could do it as a Two-Together ticket.

So what I did was buy the two tickets together under the ‘two-together’ Railcard.
When the inspector asked for the rail card I said, ‘we are together, I purchased both tickets’. He then explained to me my mistake and then gave myself and my friend a £138 penalty fare (£88 if paid on time).

I was disappointed about this as it was an honest mistake, although I understand that it meant I didn’t have a valid ticket. The inspector told me to pay it straight away and then appeal (I haven’t paid just yet).

One issue I have is that I still need to pay the price of the full ticket (£38) while also still purchasing the reduced ticket (£26). If I had no ticket at all, would it have just been the same penalty fare - I see on the website it says penalty fare are £100 and price of ticket….

Anyway, I was going to appeal just explaining the situation and that I’ve never been had any fines or warning previously and that I’d even just appreciate paying the penalty fare (£50) or even the penalty fare and the difference in tickets. £88 feels very steep to me.

Any advice on how I could go about my appeal? Thankful for any advice. Not expecting to get a reprieve but thought I may as well try since I had no malice in purchasing my original fare. Thanks.

 

[CarrotPie]

At a brief glance, I note that the penalty fare has been issued to Ely, which was presumably not the next stop on the service. By law, penalty fares must be issued to the next station that the train stops at unless the customer specifies otherwise (I can't remember the exact wording of the law — @z444z might be able to clarify). Appeals have been made on here before based on that fact. Were you given a chance to specify which station you wanted the penalty fare issued to and, if so, did you specify Ely?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

I was travelling with a friend to Cambridgeshire and because I had once before been on a Four-together ticket, I had misremembered that it was 4 and thought that you could do it as a Two-Together ticket.

So what I did was buy the two tickets together under the ‘two-together’ Railcard.
When the inspector asked for the rail card I said, ‘we are together, I purchased both tickets’. He then explained to me my mistake and then gave myself and my friend a £138 penalty fare (£88 if paid on time).

I was disappointed about this as it was an honest mistake, although I understand that it meant I didn’t have a valid ticket. The inspector told me to pay it straight away and then appeal (I haven’t paid just yet).

One issue I have is that I still need to pay the price of the full ticket (£38) while also still purchasing the reduced ticket (£26). If I had no ticket at all, would it have just been the same penalty fare - I see on the website it says penalty fare are £100 and price of ticket….

Anyway, I was going to appeal just explaining the situation and that I’ve never been had any fines or warning previously and that I’d even just appreciate paying the penalty fare (£50) or even the penalty fare and the difference in tickets. £88 feels very steep to me.

Any advice on how I could go about my appeal? Thankful for any advice. Not expecting to get a reprieve but thought I may as well try since I had no malice in purchasing my original fare. Thanks.

Welcome

If this happened on the 18 Feb you need to act fast now as you will otherwise miss the window of (21 days I think it is) to either
Appeal
or
Pay the Penalty Fare (PF) at the 50% reduced rate (ie £50 not £100)

I'm afraid PFs are designed for genuine mistakes like this - presumably set at a level to make you more careful next time. Having no malice behind your choice of ticket is not a valid basis on which to submit an Appeal IMHO, so it would likely be rejected.

However, Penalty Fare experts on here will be along soon and no doubt tell you if you have any basis to appeal that might have a reasonable chance of success and how to go about it. Again the clock is ticketing on your time to do that.

What I would do is:

Pay the Penalty Fare now to secure the reduced payment level (£50 + fare). Then if you appeal and that appeal is successful you would be refunded.

I suspect that by the end of this evening you will have had advice on here on how to best do any appeal that is feasible, but you still need time to draft that up etc - which is why I suggest paying this now ASAP.

Separately because you also had to buy a new ticket as part of this Penalty it may be that you can refund the original incorrect ticket you bought. That will depend on what that ticket was / how you bought it and there may also be a time limit on any refund claim - hopefully people here can clarify that aspect if you post details on your original ticket.

Besides all this if you do regularly travel with the same other person have a look into buying a Two Together Railcard for future use - it might be useful for you, or if travel is in the south east a Network Railcard - but have a careful look at the T&Cs to check if those Railcards will work for you - look at that on the Railcard website (or get a leaflet from the railway station that you can browse) - rather then looking at them on eg Trainline website
see

Railcards | Digital Railcard and Prices - Railcard

We are the official retailer of Railcards by National Rail. With a Railcard you can save up to 1/3 off rail travel. There's a Railcard for everyone.

www.railcard.co.uk

 

[skittles321]

At a brief glance, I note that the penalty fare has been issued to Ely, which was presumably not the next stop on the service. By law, penalty fares must be issued to the next station that the train stops at unless the customer specifies otherwise (I can't remember the exact wording of the law — @z444z might be able to clarify). Appeals have been made on here before based on that fact. Were you given a chance to specify which station you wanted the penalty fare issued to and, if so, did you specify Ely?

Hi, I was actually going to Ely sorry I didn’t mention that explicitly in the post.

Do you mean that they could have given me the penalty fare to Cambridge and then I could have bought a new ticket from Cambridge to Ely? He didn’t ask where I wanted the fare issued to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2026 ==

Welcome

If this happened on the 18 Feb you need to act fast now as you will otherwise miss the window of (21 days I think it is) to either
Appeal
or
Pay the Penalty Fare (PF) at the 50% reduced rate (ie £50 not £100)

I'm afraid PFs are designed for genuine mistakes like this - presumably set at a level to make you more careful next time. Having no malice behind your choice of ticket is not a valid basis on which to submit an Appeal IMHO, so it would likely be rejected.

However, Penalty Fare experts on here will be along soon and no doubt tell you if you have any basis to appeal that might have a reasonable chance of success and how to go about it. Again the clock is ticketing on your time to do that.

What I would do is:

Pay the Penalty Fare now to secure the reduced payment level (£50 + fare). Then if you appeal and that appeal is successful you would be refunded.

I suspect that by the end of this evening you will have had advice on here on how to best do any appeal that is feasible, but you still need time to draft that up etc - which is why I suggest paying this now ASAP.

Separately because you also had to buy a new ticket as part of this Penalty it may be that you can refund the original incorrect ticket you bought. That will depend on what that ticket was / how you bought it and there may also be a time limit on any refund claim - hopefully people here can clarify that aspect if you post details on your original ticket.

Besides all this if you do regularly travel with the same other person have a look into buying a Two Together Railcard for future use - it might be useful for you, or if travel is in the south east a Network Railcard - but have a careful look at the T&Cs to check if those Railcards will work for you - look at that on the Railcard website (or get a leaflet from the railway station that you can browse) - rather then looking at them on eg Trainline website
see

Railcards | Digital Railcard and Prices - Railcard

We are the official retailer of Railcards by National Rail. With a Railcard you can save up to 1/3 off rail travel. There's a Railcard for everyone.

www.railcard.co.uk

Thank you for your reply. If I submitted an appeal say tonight, would that allow me time to pay the full fare at a later date? For the record I get paid next week so would be in a better position to afford the fine if that was the case.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your reply. If I submitted an appeal say tonight, would that allow me time to pay the full fare at a later date? For the record I get paid next week so would be in a better position to afford the fine if that was the case.

I would say yes to this question

The Appeal (on any grounds really - even an appeal with little hope of success) stops the clock on the payment deadline whilst the appeal is considered (but then it restarts immediately again) - and there are 3 stages to the Appeals process - so there is no downside to appealing apart from the time taken to write the appeal.

So whilst it's a good idea to get your appeal grounds good at the first stage (stage 1 Appeal), you would have a chance to strengthen the appeal at stage 2 and stage 3 if stage 1 appeal failed - and this would buy you more time to pay

So yes you could submit some sort of Appeal this evening and you almost certainly be able hold of paying this until after you were paid next week.

Just
a) check 21 days from date on penalty fare is correct -
b) count your calendar to be 100% sure of the deadline for your appeal - and I suspect it is calendar days not working days

I see the upload you posted states 11 march - do not leave it until late in the day on 10 March in case of an IT problem etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2026 ==

Hi, I was actually going to Ely sorry I didn’t mention that explicitly in the post.

Do you mean that they could have given me the penalty fare to Cambridge and then I could have bought a new ticket from Cambridge to Ely? He didn’t ask where I wanted the fare issued to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2026 ==

I think this may indeed be the case and others here will clarify - and that alone may be sufficient grounds for an Appeal if true.

But yes, I think you can get off the train at the next stop in order to regularise your ticket correctly for the remainder of the journey to your intended destination (this could include, in theory, getting off the train at the next stop, buying the Railcard you didn't have before, and assuming the original ticket was valid on the next train, carrying on your journey with that ticket to the intended destination) - I'm not sure to what extent staff are meant to tell you this when issuing a Penalty Fare but it seems pretty clear from cases on here that this often does not get mentioned / explained to people.

 

[z444z]

Firstly it’s absolutely fine that you haven’t paid it yet - the inspector telling you to just pay it and then appeal was probably with your best interests in mind to ensure you don’t miss the early payment discount, but there’s nothing wrong with going through the appeals process first. As long as you appeal in time, the clock is stopped while the appeal is considered.

The legislation is clear that a penalty fare must be charged only as far as the next station the train calls at, unless the passenger requests otherwise (a separate regulation requires the fare amount charged to be calculated using regulation 5A, so it’s the amount charged that matters).

(5A) In respect of England, the penalty fare charged to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—

• a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances; or
• otherwise, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call.

And it looks like the penalty fare does not comply with these regulations but to check properly I need to know what time the penalty fare was issued which is obscured in the image you’ve uploaded - I think that’s a zero but need to be sure!

 

[skittles321]

Firstly it’s absolutely fine that you haven’t paid it yet - the inspector telling you to just pay it and then appeal was probably with your best interests in mind to ensure you don’t miss the early payment discount, but there’s nothing wrong with going through the appeals process first. As long as you appeal in time, the clock is stopped while the appeal is considered.

The legislation is clear that a penalty fare must be charged only as far as the next station the train calls at, unless the passenger requests otherwise (a separate regulation requires the fare amount charged to be calculated using regulation 5A, so it’s the amount charged that matters).

And it looks like the penalty fare does not comply with these regulations but to check properly I need to know what time the penalty fare was issued which is obscured in the image you’ve uploaded - I think that’s a zero but need to be sure!

Thank you very much for your information. Yep, that is a 0. It was issued at 10:15am.

 

[Haywain]

to check properly I need to know what time the penalty fare was issued

Why? it says it was issued at Potters Bar.

 

[z444z]

Why? it says it was issued at Potters Bar.

To ensure that I have all the information before making any assertions… is there any need to question this? Asking for a detail the OP accidentally obscured doesn’t seem at all unreasonable.

Though the easiest way to do this is probably to just ask - @skittles321 do you know which train you were on when this was issued - what time was it scheduled to leave King’s Cross and what was its destination?

 

[skittles321]

To ensure that I have all the information before making any assertions… is there any need to question this? Asking for a detail the OP accidentally obscured doesn’t seem at all unreasonable.

Though the easiest way to do this is probably to just ask - @skittles321 do you know which train you were on when this was issued - what time was it scheduled to leave King’s Cross and what was its destination?

It was the 9:54am leaving King’s Cross and I believe it was headed to King’s Lynn.

 

[CarrotPie]

It was the 9:54am leaving King’s Cross and I believe it was headed to King’s Lynn.

Right, so it didn't stop at Potters Bar (RTT link for subscribers). That's grounds enough for an appeal.

Why? it says it was issued at Potters Bar.

If it was issued at a different time, it could have been issued legitimately on a train which did stop at Potters Bar. If someone asks the OP a question that you can't see the value in asking, wait and see what they do with the response before attacking the question.

 

[Haywain]

If it was issued at a different time, it could have been issued legitimately on a train which did stop at Potters Bar.

The fact is that the PFN was issued for a fare to Ely, and there isn't a single train that calls at or passes Potters Bar with a next stop of Ely. Therefore the time of issue has no bearing on the validity of the PFN.

 

[z444z]

The fact is that the PFN was issued for a fare to Ely, and there isn't a single train that calls at or passes Potters Bar with a next stop of Ely. Therefore the time of issue has no bearing on the validity of the PFN.

We don’t all have knowledge of the stopping patterns on every route and so the safest way to check is to look at the schedule and actual running times of the train that was used. This is also helpful for the appeal because it’s much stronger if you can say “it was issued to x when it should’ve been issued to y” instead of “it shouldn’t have been issued to x” and to do this with certainty you need to look at the schedule and actual times of the train used.

I am unsure why this is even being discussed, it was an extremely simple question which the OP was happy to answer. If there’s anything further to say could we take this to a separate thread maybe?

 

[WesternLancer]

Notwithstanding this info about the train schedule, I'm mindful the clock is ticking and it would be good if @skittles321 can get some sort of Stage 1 Appeal submitted this evening ideally - perhaps an Appeal based on the fact that the PF should have been issued to Cambridge - even if more info then ends up needing to be submitted at a stage 2 appeal if stage 1 fails.

Strikes me the urgency is hitting the deadline, not getting the Appeal wording 100% perfect this evening.

 

[CarrotPie]

Notwithstanding this info about the train schedule, I'm mindful the clock is ticking and it would be good if @skittles321 can get some sort of Stage 1 Appeal submitted this evening ideally - perhaps an Appeal based on the fact that the PF should have been issued to Cambridge - even if more info then ends up needing to be submitted at a stage 2 appeal if stage 1 fails.

Strikes me the urgency is hitting the deadline, not getting the Appeal wording 100% perfect this evening.

Would there be a higher chance of success by appealing ok the Potters Bar technicality? The train categorically did not stop at Potters Bar, but it might be harder to convince the first and second-stage appeal panels that it shouldn't have been issued to Ely.

 

[WesternLancer]

Would there be a higher chance of success by appealing ok the Potters Bar technicality? The train categorically did not stop at Potters Bar, but it might be harder to convince the first and second-stage appeal panels that it shouldn't have been issued to Ely.

I don't have enough expertise on PFs to know if any benefit in your suggestion - sorry.

 

[AlterEgo]

Would there be a higher chance of success by appealing ok the Potters Bar technicality? The train categorically did not stop at Potters Bar, but it might be harder to convince the first and second-stage appeal panels that it shouldn't have been issued to Ely.

The regulations say nothing about the notice containing the location of issue of the Penalty Fare. So no, it cannot be challenged on these grounds.

 

[z444z]

Suggested wording below - please review it carefully and make sure it’s all accurate!

REFERENCE: [INSERT]

I am writing to appeal the Penalty Fare Notice referenced above on the basis that it does not comply with The Regulations because the incorrect fare has been charged.

It was issued on 18/02/2026 on the 09:54 service from King’s Cross to King’s Lynn. At the time of issue, 10:15, the train had not yet reached Cambridge, the first stop.

Regulation 9(2A) requires the fare element of the penalty fare to be "the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A)".

Regulation 5(5A) requires the penalty fare to be issued to "the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call". This next station was Cambridge, but instead the penalty fare was issued to and the fare charged to Ely.

This means that the penalty fare notice does not comply with Regulation 5(5A) and consequently does not comply with Regulation 9(2A).

The Regulations are clear that if a penalty fare notice has not been issued in accordance with The Regulations, the Appeals Panel must allow the appeal. I therefore request that this penalty fare notice is cancelled.

 

[WesternLancer]

Suggested wording below - please review it carefully and make sure it’s all accurate!

makes sense to me FWIW - hopefully the OP can submit that appeal before midnight tonight - and keep whatever auto acknowledgment is generated, or a screen shot of the Appeal being submitted.

I assume the OP should not attempt to refund their original ticket whilst this Appeal is going through - as the original ticket would then become the valid ticket for travel again (if that makes sense) and thus should not be refunded?

 

[skittles321]

Thank you all so much for your help and guidance. I am about to submit it now. I have used your suggested wording and uploaded the image of the penalty fare. Do I also need to upload images of my trainline tickets?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2026 ==

I’ve submitted the appeal and have the confirmation saved!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all so much for your help and guidance. I am about to submit it now. I have used your suggested wording and uploaded the image of the penalty fare. Do I also need to upload images of my trainline tickets?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2026 ==

I’ve submitted the appeal and have the confirmation saved!

Good work.

I think you now need to watch closely for their reply and be ready for stage 2 appeal if required.

I think this is because as soon as you are notified of the appeal result the clock on the 21 days starts again, and many of the 21 days have already elapsed.

So keep an eye on your e mail and also check your spam probably at least twice a day.

 

[skittles321]

Good work.

I think you now need to watch closely for their reply and be ready for stage 2 appeal if required, quickly.

I think this is because as soon as you are notified of the appeal result the clock on the 21 days starts again, and many of the 21 days have already elapsed.

So keep an eye on your e mail and also check your spam probably at least twice a day.

Oh wow, I see. I have 21 days -in total- for the entire appeal process. I will keep an eye out thank you!

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh wow, I see. I have 21 days -in total- for the entire appeal process. I will keep an eye out thank you!

Well I might be wrong! I’ll get corrected (hopefully!) if so.

 

[AlterEgo]

You get 14 days after receipt of the decision to make a second appeal.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

You get 14 days after receipt of the decision to make a second appeal.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Thanks for clarifying this. Helpful for op to know the correct information.

 

[blimmo]

Good work.

I think you now need to watch closely for their reply and be ready for stage 2 appeal if required, quickly.

I think this is because as soon as you are notified of the appeal result the clock on the 21 days starts again, and many of the 21 days have already elapsed.

So keep an eye on your e mail and also check your spam probably at least twice a day.

You're thinking of the clock for paying the reduced amount.

@skittles321 it's probably best to pay the reduced amount as soon as you have it. You can do that even before the first appeal is decided. If the appeal is upheld you'll be refunded and this will ensure you won't lose the prompt payment discount. I believe the deadline for the discount will be 2 days after the 1st stage appeal is decided, unless you appeal again in that time (which you should if you still aren't able to pay!).

 

[WesternLancer]

You're thinking of the clock for paying the reduced amount.

@skittles321 it's probably best to pay the reduced amount as soon as you have it. You can do that even before the first appeal is decided. If the appeal is upheld you'll be refunded and this will ensure you won't lose the prompt payment discount. I believe the deadline for the discount will be 2 days after the 1st stage appeal is decided, unless you appeal again in that time (which you should if you still aren't able to pay!).

Thanks - that is a point very well made I think.

 

[skittles321]

Thank you all. I will be able to pay it by the end of the week, so I will pay then. And then…. come what may!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all. I will be able to pay it by the end of the week, so I will pay then. And then…. come what may!

Be prepared for stage 2 and 3 appeals - it is often said here that it seems like only at stage 3 are Appeals properly considered by an Appeals panel. People here will no doubt help you with wording for future stages if needs be. Unfortunately this is tedious but seems necessary.