Forthcoming changes to National Rail Conditions of Travel

[Haywain]

I can't recall the last time I had my ticket checked on a Thameslink train but it has never happened on a 700 so that gives some sort of timescale.

It's happened plenty of times for me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2026 ==

If the railway is genuinely losing £40m a year in fraudulent refunds* then that would pay for a lot of ticket-checking staff who would then “pay for themselves”.

That would just mean the money would be lost to the industry in a different way, so isn't an option.

 

[Sonic1234]

I can't recall the last time I had my ticket checked on a Thameslink train but it has never happened on a 700 so that gives some sort of timescale.

Neither have I. Thameslink (and GTR as a whole) is about as close as you'll ever get to a fully gated network, so they will rely on that to ensure customers have a ticket and get the scan data to prevent fraudulent refunds. It doesn't ensure they have the correct ticket, but it will be cheaper to let the few who don't get away with it than to fully staff the trains.

As the Network Railcard is accepted throughout on Thameslink and available to all, you could argue that off peak the railcard price is the correct price, so people claiming discounts isn't as bad as it sounds.

 

[Hadders]

Ticket inspections do happen on class 700 trains - I’ve just had one (07:40 on a Sunday morning)

 

[Sonic1234]

Ticket inspections do happen on class 700 trains - I’ve just had one (07:40 on a Sunday morning)

Not saying they never happen, but they are rare enough to be unexpected. It's like on train ticket checks within the London Zones, I've had one in 6 years and that was a pointless "visual inspection" on SWR by someone who appeared to speak little English - you just needed to show something that approximated a bank card, Oyster card or ticket. I'm not a commuter though so maybe checks are targeted at peak times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And just as we were talking about "adding friction", LNER have updated their reservation tool to do exactly that. Now you have to select a booking from the list, or select that it isn't listed and enter the booking ID/ticket number and an optional (it states) explanation of why. I have no idea whether these will be read or not, but it is clear LNER don't want people to obtain reservations without tickets and would prefer to retain expensive Anytime fares if they aren't used on the day.

 

[35B]

And just as we were talking about "adding friction", LNER have updated their reservation tool to do exactly that. Now you have to select a booking from the list, or select that it isn't listed and enter the booking ID/ticket number and an optional (it states) explanation of why. I have no idea whether these will be read or not, but it is clear LNER don't want people to obtain reservations without tickets and would prefer to retain expensive Anytime fares if they aren't used on the day.

As an LNER user, I'm not sorry to see some friction here - the weakness in their old workflow was that it didn't cancel enough reservations. I agree that, if they don't allow pre-reservation against a to be purchased ticket, that is unacceptable given the very limited AP discounts available near to the time of travel

 

[ChilliSauce]

I can't recall the last time I had my ticket checked on a Thameslink train but it has never happened on a 700 so that gives some sort of timescale.

I believe on train ticket checking with the ability to PF or MG11 is a must on Thameslink .. Many times I gave witnessed pushing through the wide gate at gate lines managed by a help point .. So the only way to catch such fare evaiders is actually on the train.

And at the same time improve ticket checking in 1st Class .. no 1st class ticket should = a PF.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an LNER user, I'm not sorry to see some friction here - the weakness in their old workflow was that it didn't cancel enough reservations. I agree that, if they don't allow pre-reservation against a to be purchased ticket, that is unacceptable given the very limited AP discounts available near to the time of travel

It's still possible, but it has almost followed our suggestions on adding friction to make people less likely to do it.

I suspect to be fair there was probably an issue with people using it to book the seat next to them/opposite once they realised they could. Obviously walk up passengers could still sit there, but given LNER's fake compulsory reservation policy it probably did affect sales if significant numbers were doing this.

 

[ChilliSauce]

And just as we were talking about "adding friction", LNER have updated their reservation tool to do exactly that. Now you have to select a booking from the list, or select that it isn't listed and enter the booking ID/ticket number and an optional (it states) explanation of why. I have no idea whether these will be read or not, but it is clear LNER don't want people to obtain reservations without tickets and would prefer to retain expensive Anytime fares if they aren't used on the day.

There is also another annoying issue with the LNER seat reservation system in that it will only let you book 2 reservations on your actual day of travel .. saying that it is far better than the offering from Avanti in that it actually lets you "pick your seat" . And if course far superior to anything Transport UK has to offer (EMR) on its IC services as they have given up on reservations.

 

[35B]

It's still possible, but it has almost followed our suggestions on adding friction to make people less likely to do it.

I suspect to be fair there was probably an issue with people using it to book the seat next to them/opposite once they realised they could. Obviously walk up passengers could still sit there, but given LNER's fake compulsory reservation policy it probably did affect sales if significant numbers were doing this.

My perception was simply that it didn't allow users to cancel the seat they'd booked, and left large swathes of reservations in place that weren't needed. There are then the other "opportunities" that you mention

 

[Bletchleyite]

My perception was simply that it didn't allow users to cancel the seat they'd booked, and left large swathes of reservations in place that weren't needed. There are then the other "opportunities" that you mention

You can change seats and cancel standalone reservations. I don't know if you can move it to another train on a walk up fare, though interestingly Trainline has recently started to do that.

What it doesn't let you do is cancel a reservation made via a different sales channel, but it has no way to do that.

 

[35B]

The LNER site/app both lets you change a reservation (cancelling the old one or moving seats) and cancel one made using the reservation-only option. I have done both.

What it doesn't let you do is cancel a reservation made via a different sales channel, but it has no way to do that.

I've tried several times on bookings, and it's never made the connection. I'll be exploring when I next travel - my journey count has fallen significantly of late

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've tried several times on bookings, and it's never made the connection. I'll be exploring when I next travel - my journey count has fallen significantly of late

Sorry, I've edited my post - I'm pretty sure you can't move a reservation to another train on a walk up ticket as things stand, though you can I'm fairly sure just swap seats on one as long as you booked it with LNER and the relevant quota is still available. You can on Trainline though!

I guess the overall point here, though, is that the railway is capable of introducing "friction" to discourage things they don't want to happen...but only when it suits them!

 

[35B]

Sorry, I've edited my post - I'm pretty sure you can't move a reservation to another train on a walk up ticket as things stand, though you can I'm fairly sure just swap seats on one as long as you booked it with LNER and the relevant quota is still available. You can on Trainline though!

I guess the overall point here, though, is that the railway is capable of introducing "friction" to discourage things they don't want to happen...but only when it suits them!

It was the walk-up fare that I had in mind - it allows a new reservation to be made, and then that reservation to be swapped, but without touching the original

 

[AlterEgo]

It's still possible, but it has almost followed our suggestions on adding friction to make people less likely to do it.

I suspect to be fair there was probably an issue with people using it to book the seat next to them/opposite once they realised they could. Obviously walk up passengers could still sit there, but given LNER's fake compulsory reservation policy it probably did affect sales if significant numbers were doing this.

A better use of this functionality is to reserve seats on subsequent departures in case a connection is missed. (And then cancel once you make your booked train)

 

[Adam Williams]

What it doesn't let you do is cancel a reservation made via a different sales channel, but it has no way to do that.

Train operators can basically do what they like with reservation bookings; you'd be surprised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Train operators can basically do what they like with reservation bookings; you'd be surprised.

New thread on this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-seat-reservations-of-other-retailers.299526/

 

[Kite159]

And just as we were talking about "adding friction", LNER have updated their reservation tool to do exactly that. Now you have to select a booking from the list, or select that it isn't listed and enter the booking ID/ticket number and an optional (it states) explanation of why. I have no idea whether these will be read or not, but it is clear LNER don't want people to obtain reservations without tickets and would prefer to retain expensive Anytime fares if they aren't used on the day.

Unless it's changed again you could still enter any 5 digit number (bar 00000) when the extra fields appear after selecting 'booking not listed'. as it doesn't link to any sort of database.

 

[Bikeman78]

Ticket inspections do happen on class 700 trains - I’ve just had one (07:40 on a Sunday morning)

I'm sure they do but I've never seen one. Whereas I've seen loads of revenue protection on SWR and also on 317s back in the day. Another route that I never got checked was Liverpool Street to Shenfield on 315s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless it's changed again you could still enter any 5 digit number (bar 00000) when the extra fields appear after selecting 'booking not listed'. as it doesn't link to any sort of database.

I suspect so. My point was just relating to what they clearly want and the use of "friction" to discourage undesirable (to them) customer behaviour.

 

[MrJeeves]

Unless it's changed again you could still enter any 5 digit number (bar 00000) when the extra fields appear after selecting 'booking not listed'. as it doesn't link to any sort of database.

I suspect so. My point was just relating to what they clearly want and the use of "friction" to discourage undesirable (to them) customer behaviour.

00000 does not work, but any other series of numbers do (e.g. 12345).

 

[Tester]

There is also another annoying issue with the LNER seat reservation system in that it will only let you book 2 reservations on your actual day of travel

In my Eurail pass days that was an irritating constraint.

However sorted by using different accounts - yes a little bit of friction, but easily managed if need be.

 

[hawk1911]

Another 'useful' response to my complaint, this time from Southeastern who state:

"We don’t believe, based on the circumstances you’ve described, that the upcoming changes to the National Rail Conditions of Travel in respect of refunds will affect your travelling with us or your ability to receive a refund if a planned journey doesn’t prove to be possible on the day.

The changes to the National Rail Conditions of Travel will include a caveat that refund requests will be considered on a case by case basis with weight given to “exceptional circumstances”. We would certainly consider a disability that prevents a passenger from knowing whether a journey will be possible until the day of travel to fall within this."

This one has definitely been filed away for future reference.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Another 'useful' response to my complaint, this time from Southeastern who state:

"We don’t believe, based on the circumstances you’ve described, that the upcoming changes to the National Rail Conditions of Travel in respect of refunds will affect your travelling with us or your ability to receive a refund if a planned journey doesn’t prove to be possible on the day.

The changes to the National Rail Conditions of Travel will include a caveat that refund requests will be considered on a case by case basis with weight given to “exceptional circumstances”. We would certainly consider a disability that prevents a passenger from knowing whether a journey will be possible until the day of travel to fall within this."

This one has definitely been filed away for future reference.

I suspect there will be a difference between having a recognised, medically diagnosed / confirmed 'disability' and a general (typically) old-age related thing where you just aren't able to travel on the day because you have unpredictable good days and bad days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect there will be a difference between having a recognised, medically diagnosed / confirmed 'disability' and a general (typically) old-age related thing where you just aren't able to travel on the day because you have unpredictable good days and bad days.

There's also the question of the added stress and the fact that people who are disabled tend, overall, to be relatively poor and so the stress of potentially losing a large sum of money would be greater.

I certainly think there is a potential case here, though I am not a lawyer so that comment is worth precisely what you paid for it! It will be interesting to see if someone (e.g. perhaps Mr Paulley?) considers bringing one.

 

[hawk1911]

There's also the question of the added stress and the fact that people who are disabled tend, overall, to be relatively poor and so the stress of potentially losing a large sum of money would be greater.

I certainly think there is a potential case here, though I am not a lawyer so that comment is worth precisely what you paid for it! It will be interesting to see if someone (e.g. perhaps Mr Paulley?) considers bringing one.

I am not a lawyer either, but I am looking at collecting as much information/evidence as possible at the moment. In addition to my complaints with the rail companies, I am pursuing this through my MP, as the responsibility for this change seems to sit with the Department for Transport.

Ideally, the forthcoming changes will be amended but, if not, then it is likely, at some point in the future, I will be affected by this change. Therefore, if I have a refund rejected, I am currently looking at two pieces of legislation to support such a claim:

1) The Consumer Rights Act 2015, in particular section 62 and particularly subsection 6 which states "A notice is unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations to the detriment of the consumer."; and

2) The Equality Act 2010, in particular section 19 which covers Indirect Discrimination against a protected group. Rather than quote the Act itself it is easier to quote the accompanying Explanatory Notes and, in particular note 78 which states "Indirect discrimination occurs when a policy which applies in the same way for everybody has an effect which particularly disadvantages people with a protected characteristic. Where a particular group is disadvantaged in this way, a person in that group is indirectly discriminated against if he or she is put at that disadvantage, unless the person applying the policy can justify it" and note 79 which states "Indirect discrimination can also occur when a policy would put a person at a disadvantage if it were applied. This means, for example, that where a person is deterred from doing something, such as applying for a job or taking up an offer of service, because a policy which would be applied would result in his or her disadvantage, this may also be indirect discrimination.".

 

[soil]

Another supposed consumer journalist is over the moon at the change

https://x.com/SimonCalder/status/2038538347677638863

Train operators clamp down on ‘completely bonkers’ ticket fraud

The Man Who Pays His Way: A gaping loophole in the system is being closed by the railway

www.independent.co.uk

Rail ticket fraud. At last, a gaping loophole in the system will close, from Wednesday 1 April. Currently unscrupulous passengers buy an Anytime or Off-peak ticket, make the journey, and if the ticket isn't clipped or scanned they claim a refund, less £5.

These miscreants have been costing the railways – and therefore honest passengers and taxpayers – an estimated £40m a year. From 1 April, though, this gaping loophole will be closed, allowing refunds only up to midnight the day before the journey.

Don’t worry: there is an exception for on-the-day disruption. If you cannot make a journey, or you would end up unacceptably late, you will still be able to claim back the full amount of the ticket. You might also be able to demonstrate that “exceptional circumstances” prevented you from making the journey.

But the rule changes finally bring Britain into line with the railways of other countries, where refunds are not routinely available once a ticket is valid for use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Calder also supports the LNER fare increase "trial". He claims to be "the man who pays his way", but I think this makes it clear this is no longer so.

Generally, he loves the anti-passenger policies of the likes of Ryanair and is forever waxing lyrical about such things.

 

[yorksrob]

People who support the LNER fares hike - sorry, "trial" lose all credibility on fares issues as far as I'm concerned.

If Simon Calder wants us brought into line with the railways of other countries, I hope he's stridently calling for national railcards/bahn card/climate type tickets in this country as well

 

[soil]

Calder also supports the LNER fare increase "trial". He claims to be "the man who pays his way", but I think this makes it clear this is no longer so.

Generally, he loves the anti-passenger policies of the likes of Ryanair and is forever waxing lyrical about such things.

Yes he also makes a rather misleading claim there about PAYG pricing:

I happen to have tested the system between Nottingham and Derby, on a real rather than imaginary rail trip. Technically, it worked well, and passengers are even given access to special low fares. In my case, the trip cost £5 – the same as I paid for my non-journey through the East Midlands.

that article

On East Midlands Railway between Nottingham and Derby, the one-way fare digital PAYG peak fare is £5, compared with £9.80 for an anytime journey, and £4.80 for an off-peak (normally £9.50 for an off-peak). The daily cap is £23 for any number of journeys. There is also a weekly cap of £73.

The paper fares:

SDR £10.10/SDS £9.80
CDR £9.70/CDS £9.50

The PAYG:

£5/£4.80

So basically you would save 10p (for a purely peak/off-peak return) or possibly 30p (e.g., if returning outside the evening peak).

Not really doing readers any favour by pretending that it's a "special low fare", as opposed to a welcome but hardly significant 10p price cut, and only really providing a benefit if you make one-way journeys (and potentially encouraging the kind of fraud he's so concerned about, e.g., if you are going out for the evening and coming back at midnight, you might decide to go through an open barrier avoiding your fare, and saving £4.80, whereas previously you would not have bothered for the sake of 20p)

Also glosses over the fact that a weekly season ticket is Derby-Nottingham £48.70 (and in practice significantly less if buying for a month+), so the "£73 weekly cap" doesn't look very clever at all (its valid Leicester-Derby-Nottingham, i.e. a triangle, and the most expensive weekly season is Leicester - Derby, at £71.50)