Proposal for fares to be based on distance

[mike57]

If you think a mileage based system would solve this

When I say milage based I dont mean the same pence per mile rate over the whole of the UK, My thinking is to do it on a per route basis. Again back to the example of our local route pence per mile rates vary from from 19.8p (Scarborough - Hull off peak day return, cheaper deals can be had for advance tickets on occasions) to £1.85 per mile (Cottingham - Hull anytime single). The equivilent Anytime single from Scarborough to Hull works out at 40p per mile This discrepancy makes no sense as from Scarborough to Hull you pass through Cottingham.

Can you provide a link to a journey search and a screenshot demonstrating this?

Journey is Bempton-Hull return, during off peak hours. I just put mid morning out, mid afternoon return in, Its too many screen dumps to post here, but the first few are

• Advance singles (tied to trains obviously) £17.80
• Off peak day return £17.90
• Anytime Day return £21.20
• Anytime Short Distance return £22.90

After this the options are various combinations of singles at around £36 (4 options) and then 'All other options' again a combination of various singles at around £27 (4 options), and if you introduce a a second passenger then the 'Duo' option appears as well if its off peak travel.

To be fair the Northern App highlights the cheapest option and shows the next few logical choices in price order, but for a simple no change 34 mile each way journey this just seems like too many different options.

 

[AlterEgo]

Journey is Bempton-Hull return, during off peak hours. I just put mid morning out, mid afternoon return in, Its too many screen dumps to post here, but the first few are

• Advance singles (tied to trains obviously) £17.80
• Off peak day return £17.90
• Anytime Day return £21.20
• Anytime Short Distance return £22.90

After this the options are various combinations of singles at around £36 (4 options) and then 'All other options' again a combination of various singles at around £27 (4 options), and if you introduce a a second passenger then the 'Duo' option appears as well if its off peak travel.

To be fair the Northern App highlights the cheapest option and shows the next few logical choices in price order, but for a simple no change 34 mile each way journey this just seems like too many different options.

The problem there is that irrelevant fares are being shown to customers, rather than their mere existence. The ticket office wouldn't quote all that nonsense at you on a simple enquiry.

 

[yorkie]

When I say milage based I dont mean the same pence per mile rate over the whole of the UK, My thinking is to do it on a per route basis....

WHat would the pricing be for journeys such as York to Whitby, York to London, Reading to London?

Journey is Bempton-Hull return, during off peak hours. I just put mid morning out, mid afternoon return in, Its too many screen dumps to post here, but the first few are

• Advance singles (tied to trains obviously) £17.80
• Off peak day return £17.90
• Anytime Day return £21.20
• Anytime Short Distance return £22.90

After this the options are various combinations of singles at around £36 (4 options) and then 'All other options' again a combination of various singles at around £27 (4 options), and if you introduce a a second passenger then the 'Duo' option appears as well if its off peak travel.

To be fair the Northern App highlights the cheapest option and shows the next few logical choices in price order, but for a simple no change 34 mile each way journey this just seems like too many different options.

This sounds like a problem with how the Northern app shows fares. Other apps are available, which may be easier to use.

 

[mike57]

This sounds like a problem with how the Northern app shows fares. Other apps are available, which may be easier to use.

If you opt for the cheapest fare then its pretty simple, but if you want to see the options then there are loads of options, I will often check the price differential between some sort of open ticket (typical off peak day return) v Advances, and if the difference is minimal I buy an open ticket 'just in case' A good example of the complexity is Anytime day v 1 month returns. Why not just offer 1 anytime ticket valid for 1 month, at say £21.50.

WHat would the pricing be for journeys such as York to Whitby, York to London, Reading to London?

York to London would probably have two rates: 1st based on current Super Off peak fares "an Off peak ticket", second would be anytime. Intermediate stops would be pro rata. Advances tied to specific trains would still be available, and I would probably introduce dynamic pricing, if the xx.xx departure looks like its going to be almost empty drop the prices, if its looking full and rammed suspend advance sales. I am sure with all the data gathered now, and a bit of common sense human input applied regarding events that affect loading a reasonably effective algorithm could be developed.

Any changes have to be revenue neuteral, once you have a price for every station to station section, then arriving at at through price which will always be the same as a split ticket is easy. The only issue then is routes where you have a commuter and an Inter City service options.A possible solution: Assuming you do away with ToCs wrt to ticketing then some services are labeled as Inter City, which require a supplement over certain sections. To take the case of York to London, Peterborough to London would be one of the segments. If you buy a York London ticket then it includes it. Travel in Germany used this model, I dont know if it still does. If you change your mind then you just buy the supplement.

This isn't all the answers, and obviously you will have anomalies which will require manual tweaking, but they should be odd ball situations, not the norm. You then decide if you are tieing yourself to specific trains, going for offpeak flexible, or anytime ticket, but split tickets will deliver the same ticket price as a through ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

York to London would probably have two rates: 1st based on current Super Off peak fares "an Off peak ticket", second would be anytime. Intermediate stops would be pro rata. Advances tied to specific trains would still be available, and I would probably introduce dynamic pricing, if the xx.xx departure looks like its going to be almost empty drop the prices, if its looking full and rammed suspend advance sales. I am sure with all the data gathered now, and a bit of common sense human input applied regarding events that affect loading a reasonably effective algorith could be developed.

LNER are doing exactly this (to the extent that you can with the limitations of the systems available). I don't know what software they use, but it has been named here before, and I suspect at least one person here knows

 

[yorkie]

If you opt for the cheapest fare then its pretty simple, but if you want to see the options then there are loads of options, I will often check the price differential between some sort of open ticket (typical off peak day return) v Advances, and if the difference is minimal I buy an open ticket 'just in case' A good example of the complexity is Anytime day v 1 month returns. Why not just offer 1 anytime ticket valid for 1 month, at say £21.50.

OK so you are abolishing day returns, but that means a price rise for many people, as the non-day returns are typically more expensive, for anything other than long distance journeys.

York to London would probably have two rates: 1st based on current Super Off peak fares "an Off peak ticket", second would be anytime.

How would you calculate the price, and what would the restrictions be?

Intermediate stops would be pro rata.

That would likely enable splitting opportunities, for journeys that are partially during peak hours, unless you have very complex peak restrictions.

Advances tied to specific trains would still be available, and I would probably introduce dynamic pricing, if the xx.xx departure looks like its going to be almost empty drop the prices, if its looking full and rammed suspend advance sales. I am sure with all the data gathered now, and a bit of common sense human input applied regarding events that affect loading a reasonably effective algorith could be developed.

LNER already do dynamic pricing, but the "almost empty" trains are still expensive.

Would dropping the price after people already booked be a popular move? Would it make things simpler, knowing that leaving it until nearer the time could see a reduced price?

Any changes have to be revenue neuteral, once you have a price for every station to station section, then arriving at at through price which will always be the same as a split ticket is easy.

OK so what are the prices for:
York - Ulleskelf
Ulleskelf-Church Fenton
Church Fenton - Micklefield
Micklefield - East Garforth
East Garforth - Garforth
Garforth - Cross Gates
Cross Gates - Leeds

Church Fenton - Castleford
York - Castleford
Castleford - Woodlesford
Woodlesford - Leeds
Castleford - Leeds

Would York - Leeds be the sum of the former, or the latter, or something else? Would it vary depending on the route the train is booked to take?

The only issue then is routes where you have a commuter and an Inter City service options.A possible solution: Assuming you do away with ToCs wrt to ticketing then some services are labeled as Inter City, which require a supplement over certain sections. To take the case of York to London, Peterborough to London would be one of the segments. If you buy a York London ticket then it includes it. Travel in Germany used this model, I dont know if it still does. If you change your mind then you just buy the supplement.

How would this work for York to Leeds? What is TPE categorised as? How many fare types would you make available? How would supplements be priced and purchased?

This isn't all the answers, and obviously you will have anomalies with will require manual tweaking, but they should be odd ball situations, not the norm. You then decide if you are tieing yourself to specific trains, going for offpeak flexible, or anytime ticket, but split tickets will deliver the same ticket price as a through ticket.

It seems to be more complex than the current system to me?

 

[Kite159]

How would you work out something like York to Sheffield which is valid via Leeds (with options of Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley or via Moorthorpe), via Doncaster & via Baghill

Would someone need to pay your "Intercity supplement" if they went via Doncaster where the only options between York & Doncaster is on LNER or XC?

How about Leeds to Wakefield where LNER (and XC) take their fair share of local passengers, would anybody wanting a flexible ticket be limited to using the 2 coach Northern 150? Likewise between Coventry & Birmingham New Street, what would the penalty be if someone boarded an Intercity service without paying the supplement fare?

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNER already do dynamic pricing, but the "almost empty" trains are still expensive.

This of course would be because it's yield management, not bums on seats management. That is, if you can charge one person £350 in preference to charging 3 people £100 each, you do the former.

Obviously one could change such a system to target maximum occupancy rather than maximum yield (I don't doubt such systems have the option to configure this sort of thing), but I can't see the DfT/Treasury liking that.

 

[yorkie]

How would you work out something like York to Sheffield which is valid via Leeds (with options of Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley or via Moorthorpe), via Doncaster & via Baghill

Would someone need to pay your "Intercity supplement" if they went via Doncaster where the only options between York & Doncaster is on LNER or XC?

How about Leeds to Wakefield where LNER (and XC) take their fair share of local passengers, would anybody wanting a flexible ticket be limited to using the 2 coach Northern 150? Likewise between Coventry & Birmingham New Street, what would the penalty be if someone boarded an Intercity service without paying the supplement fare?

Good questions; so far, no-one has yet proposed a mileage-based pricing scheme that fully answers such questions.

It's typical that mileage-based proposals start of as being "simple" in concept, but become increasingly complex.

Sure, we could price journeys on such a basis, but it would either not eliminate split ticketing, or it would not eliminate the concept of starting/finishing short on a cheaper "longer" ticket (but priced by a cheaper route), and it could certainly not eliminate both of these.

There's also no answer to the paradox of abolishing "complex" peak restrictions while also abolishing the need to "split"; the only potential solution is to remove the concept of "off peak" fares entirely, which leaves us with the LNER scenario, where Newcastle to London costs an absolute fortune at hitherto "off peak" times of high demand and/or reduced capacity, and also the 'workaround' of deliberately purchasing a 'Flex' ticket for the wrong train in order to get a cheaper fare for a premium train.