Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Railperf]

At low speeds, power is not the factor that limits acceleration; it's the friction between the wheels and the rail that matters. If you try to use more power, the wheels will start to spin; wheelslip protection will activate; and this will limit the power that is actually applied to the wheels.

If all the axles of a train are driven, then the maximum starting acceleration is given by [acceleration due to gravity(g)] x [coefficient of friction(f)].

• "g" is close 10 m/s^2: i.e. every second a falling object increases speed downwards by 10m/s.
  
  
• With steel wheels on steel rails, "f" is usually between 10% and 20%, depending on how good the wheelship protection is and the condition of the rails.

A 5-car class 222 has 10 out of 20 axles driven, so only half its weight is contributing to friction on the driving wheels. Its
quoted acceleration of 0.8m/s^2 implies that it the coefficient of friction (f) for a 222 is 16%. [ g x 50% x 16% = 0.8 m/s^2]

A 5-car class 810 has only 8 out of 20 axles driven, so only 40% of its weight is contributing to driving friction. Assuming the same 16% coefficient of friction gives a slower starting acceleration for a 810 as: g x 40% x 16% = 0.64m/s^2.

I don't know about the 805, but a 5-car class 800 has a UIC classification of: 2′2′+Bo′Bo′+Bo′Bo′+Bo′Bo′+2′2′, so it has 12 out of 20 axles driven. With 60% of the weight of the train on driven axles, starting acceleration will be g x 60% x 16% = 0.96 m/s^2. That's half as fast again as a class 810 at starting speeds.

== == == ==

Note these limits only apply at starting speeds. When it is moving at 1m/s, the power required to accelerate a 250t class 810 is given by Power(P) = mass x acceleration x velocity. = 250,000 kg x 0.64m/s^2 x 1m/s = 160kW. This is a tiny fraction of the 3MW available. But at 10m/s (22mph) you need 1.6MW to achieve the same acceleration; at 20m/s (44mph) you would need 3.2MW, which is more than the 4 x 735kW diesel engines can provide.

So above around 40mph, it's the power/weight ratio that matters. A class 810 on diesel with 4x735kW = 2.94MW will outperform both a class 222 (5x559kW = 2.895MW), and a class 800 on diesel (3 x 700kW = 2.1MW).

Thanks for the very detailed maths.

Unfortunately it doesn't explain Hitachi / MTU Generator Unit (GU) setup on the 810's and whether drivers are being specifically instructed to hold power to lower levels when starting from a stand in diesel mode as opposed to electric mode.

The 810's are QUICKER than a Class 222 on electric power despite having fewer motored axles.

The issue is what happens in diesel mode.

Despite being endowed with four hugely powered diesel engines - with enough power to feed the traction motors, the acceleration rate is a LOT slower than the same train on electric.

This is due to: 1. the traction system programmed to feed power in a slower more progressive way.
Or
2. Drivers being instructed to apply power more slowly and progressively in diesel mode.

One driver aboard a very slow 810011 told me that he starts the train with 100% power and lets the electronics take care of the rest.
Which implies the traction control system is programmed to deliver less power and a slower build up of power from a station start on diesel.

It seems to have nothing to do with friction coefficients or adhesion.

 

[liamf656]

Hello, does anyone know if 810004 has entered passenger service yet? And if it has, do you know the date of when it ran it's first service? Thanks

004 will be one of the last to enter passenger service at the end of the year

 

[MboroFC]

Thank you both for your responses

 

[Nottingham59]

The 810's are QUICKER than a Class 222 on electric power despite having fewer motored axles.

They will be, at any speed over around 40mph, when the 222 reaches its power limit. Adhesion of the driving wheels is only a consideration at low speeds.

Which implies the traction control system is programmed to deliver less power and a slower build up of power from a station start on diesel.

It may well be. The way to tell would be to time a 5-car 222 and an 810 on how long they take to cover their own length from a standing start - on diesel and on AC.


EDIT: It's also possible that Hitachi have throttled back their hugely powered diesel engines to counter the known problem of overheating. Especially if they're suffering from reduced flow of cooling air at low speeds.

 

[720144]

Hello, does anyone know if 810004 has entered passenger service yet? And if it has, do you know the date of when it ran it's first service? Thanks

Should be 014 next due in a week or 2 after being commissioned & fault free mileage tests.

 

[Amos390]

Should be 014 next due in a week or 2 after being commissioned & fault free mileage tests.

Estimating about a week before it starts mileage runs then?

 

[Tracked]

Saw 1C11 at Chesterfield this morning, 810012 according to RTT (I was in the car park as it was leaving), seemed a bit slow setting off compared to the 222's but looking at the timings it was Ok

 

[Trainman40083]

Saw 1C11 at Chesterfield this morning, 810012 according to RTT (I was in the car park as it was leaving), seemed a bit slow setting off compared to the 222's but looking at the timings it was Ok

I saw 810012 heading north from Derby around 10.10.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It may well be. The way to tell would be to time a 5-car 222 and an 810 on how long they take to cover their own length from a standing start - on diesel and on AC.

Just an observation.

I stood on the Down platform at Leicester yesterday and watched 810010 depart - I was level with the front cab.

There did seem to be a delay, longer - I thought - than on other diesels between the driver opening the power regulator (which I judged from the TM giving the bell + a few seconds) to full engine revs and movement. In other words, the revs seemed to take a long time to pick up, and it was only when full revs were reached that the train started to move.

Perhaps it wouldn't therefore be a fair to compare times after the train started to move but I'm not sure how the delay in taking up drive can be measured.

 

[Amos390]

I have a few questions about the 4th 810 flow for those who may know some answers:
1) When will the flow be introduced?
2) What services will be operated under the flow?

Thanks in advance.

 

[JCO1406]

I have a few questions about the 4th 810 flow for those who may know some answers:
1) When will the flow be introduced?
2) What services will be operated under the flow?

Thanks in advance.

Class 810 Initial Diagrams

With entry into service finally imminent a request for anyone with information to post details here. My understanding is that two sets will be in service in early December with five more in Q1 2026. the only information I have seen so far on the Introduction thread is departures as follows...

www.railforums.co.uk

Post #105

 

[Killingworth]

Extracted from EMR's latest Stakeholder briefing on reservations. Clearly uncertainty as to what will operate each service makes it impractical to guarantee reservations so best to remove them all until the full new fleet is in service.

We are writing to you today to provide some further information regarding our Class 810 Aurora rollout and Intercity reservations.

During March and April we plan to increase the number of Class 810 Aurora trains in passenger service to five, before introducing 10-car operation later in the spring. As we move through the transition to the full introduction of the Aurora fleet there will be a greater variation in which services are operated by Class 222 trains and which are operated by Auroras.

Operating two fleets makes it technically and operationally difficult to provide seat reservations as the seating layouts are different and the technology on the Class 222 is old and inflexible. While we know our customers value seat reservations, we also know that failing to honour a booked reservation is one of the biggest causes of dissatisfaction.

We have therefore taken the decision to remove seat reservations on all Intercity services from 1 April 2026 while we transition to our new Aurora fleet. We recognise that inconsistent reservations have created challenges and frustration for customers and colleagues. This temporary measure will allow us to provide greater certainty during the fleet transition.

From 1 April 2026:

• All Intercity seat reservations will be withdrawn
• Existing seat reservations for travel on or after this date will no longer be valid (wheelchair and bicycle reservations will remain in place)

Furthermore, the option to make new seat reservations for travel beyond 1 April has been removed from all booking channels.

We are working closely with our IT team to ensure clear information for passengers is displayed on the reservation screens on the trains and for the management of passenger assistance and bicycle reservations.

We are contacting customers with reservations who are travelling from 1 April and providing them with simple information about what this means for their journey. Clear messaging will be provided through booking channels, stations and on-train announcements.

 

[The_Train]

Extracted from EMR's latest Stakeholder briefing on reservations. Clearly uncertainty as to what will operate each service makes it impractical to guarantee reservations so best to remove them all until the full new fleet is in service.

Not often I say this about the railways but this is a very sensible move. Gives EMR a chance to view how things work without seat reservations so they can actually make a decision as to whether they are needed at all going forward. Didn't GA do something similar during their transition from LHCS to the new stuff and never revived seat reservations?

 

[222001]

Extracted from EMR's latest Stakeholder briefing on reservations. Clearly uncertainty as to what will operate each service makes it impractical to guarantee reservations so best to remove them all until the full new fleet is in service.

I do find it quite odd it's as soon as 01/04 - especially as lots of reservations will have already been issued for after this day. Until May there will only be 5 diagrams 810s can operate on (due to lack of 10 car running), and these diagrams already have reservations suspended. Part of me wonders if they'll ever come back at all...

 

[Kite159]

Not often I say this about the railways but this is a very sensible move. Gives EMR a chance to view how things work without seat reservations so they can actually make a decision as to whether they are needed at all going forward. Didn't GA do something similar during their transition from LHCS to the new stuff and never revived seat reservations?

It's a bit different with GA who run 12 coach units on a single route (London to Norwich) with EMR and their 5 coach units on longer distance services.

Not having seat reservations is all fine and dandy for those boarding at Nottingham, Sheffield or even London as it will be first come first served, but for those wanting to board at say Leicester or Derby heading towards London and end up standing as there are no seats left?

Next time they will simply take the car

 

[Bald Rick]

I do find it quite odd it's as soon as 01/04 - especially as lots of reservations will have already been issued for after this day. Until May there will only be 5 diagrams 810s can operate on (due to lack of 10 car running), and these diagrams already have reservations suspended. Part of me wonders if they'll ever come back at all...

You’re assuming the diagrams are remaining the same…

 

[ChilliSauce]

It's a bit different with GA who run 12 coach units on a single route (London to Norwich) with EMR and their 5 coach units on longer distance services.

Not having seat reservations is all fine and dandy for those boarding at Nottingham, Sheffield or even London as it will be first come first served, but for those wanting to board at say Leicester or Derby heading towards London and end up standing as there are no seats left?

Next time they will simply take the car

An intercity service with no seat reservations is in my book no longer an Intercity service .

Further evidence of rundown by Transport UK (trading as EMR)

 

[Bald Rick]

An intercity service with no seat reservations is in my book no longer an Intercity service .

Further evidence of rundown by Transport UK (trading as EMR)

What would you do instead?

 

[Ian Hardy]

An intercity service with no seat reservations is in my book no longer an Intercity service .

Further evidence of rundown by Transport UK (trading as EMR)

The problem is that people either don't turn up or don't sit in their reserved seat, they just sit in any seat that is empty.

The rot started with advance purchase tickets as they automatically come with a seat reservation. So people booked an Anytime Single for their outward journey as it was in the peak, but coming back they backed a few advance singles for various services as they weren't certain what time they would need to return as as the tickets were cheap, they would just throw away the unused tickets. But the seat reservation system didn't know that so the unused seats were never used but showed up as reserved.

Now that SWR has stopped seat reservations, anyone with an advance purchase ticket for an SWR service gets a reservation card with the service that they have booked onto, but they don't get a specific seat allocated, they just have to find one.

That is how all advance purchase tickets should work, therefore if you buy a cheap ticket (aka Ryanair) you get what you pay for and if you want to guarantee a seat then there is an additional reservation fee per journey (e.g. £10).

 

[GilfachFargoed]

Not often I say this about the railways but this is a very sensible move. Gives EMR a chance to view how things work without seat reservations so they can actually make a decision as to whether they are needed at all going forward. Didn't GA do something similar during their transition from LHCS to the new stuff and never revived seat reservations?

GA have only taken that approach due to 'technical difficulties'.

 

[Killingworth]

​

Ian Hardy said; The problem is that people either don't turn up or don't sit in their reserved seat, they just sit in any seat that is empty.

The rot started with advance purchase tickets as they automatically come with a seat reservation. So people booked an Anytime Single for their outward journey as it was in the peak, but coming back they backed a few advance singles for various services as they weren't certain what time they would need to return as as the tickets were cheap, they would just throw away the unused tickets. But the seat reservation system didn't know that so the unused seats were never used but showed up as reserved.

I've been guilty of not sitting in my reserved seat from time to time.

1. Booked on a specific train but with open ticket and boarded earlier or later train when meeting finished early or late - or went to have a drink with a friend in London.
2. Met up with someone on platform and we both gave up our reserved seats to sit together in an unreserved area.
3. But nowadays it's mostly because I've been travelling with split tickets and to avoid playing musical chairs I've gone to an unreserved coach.

 

[QSK19]

An intercity service with no seat reservations is in my book no longer an Intercity service .

Further evidence of rundown by Transport UK (trading as EMR)

Agreed. Pointy noses on the 810s aside, I feel that EMR’s IC service has been moving more and more towards a glorified regional express service. Compare the current offering with what we got in the Midland Mainline days… the difference is, in my opinion, very stark. M’s Bar, free tea & coffee, the bar being open on the 222s and a decent first class offering were a million miles ahead of what we get now.

Yes I know that the landscape has changed post-Covid, but that isn’t an excuse to let standards slip.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2026 ==

What would you do instead?

Charge regional express fares (ie a fare that is befitting of the level of service); but I do get the argument that there’s no point of reducing fares if demand is strong.

 

[Killingworth]

Agreed. Pointy noses on the 810s aside, I feel that EMR’s IC service has been moving more and more towards a glorified regional express service. Compare the current offering with what we got in the Midland Mainline days… the difference is, in my opinion, very stark. M’s Bar, free tea & coffee, the bar being open on the 222s and a decent first class offering were a million miles ahead of what we get now.

Memories of getting a proper 3 course evening meal served between St Pancras and Derby with a coffee before alighting at Chesterfield. Met some very interesting table companions that way. May have been before HST's!

 

[WesternLancer]

Agreed. Pointy noses on the 810s aside, I feel that EMR’s IC service has been moving more and more towards a glorified regional express service. Compare the current offering with what we got in the Midland Mainline days… the difference is, in my opinion, very stark. M’s Bar, free tea & coffee, the bar being open on the 222s and a decent first class offering were a million miles ahead of what we get now.

Yes I know that the landscape has changed post-Covid, but that isn’t an excuse to let standards slip.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2026 ==


Charge regional express fares (ie a fare that is befitting of the level of service); but I do get the argument that there’s no point of reducing fares if demand is strong.

agree with all that, but Pullman excluded (and seat reservations excluded for now) is it much different from GWR's inter city offering? It maybe as I don't use GWR very much but I wasn't that impressed last time I did....

 

[dosxuk]

Yes I know that the landscape has changed post-Covid, but that isn’t an excuse to let standards slip.

COVID doesn't really come into it - the service levels they're now offering are basically the same as they specified in their tender, and that was decided and won long before COVID existed.

I wonder how things would have turned out if Stagecoach hadn't been barred over the pensions liability thing.

 

[QSK19]

COVID doesn't really come into it - the service levels they're now offering are basically the same as they specified in their tender, and that was decided and won long before COVID existed.

I wonder how things would have turned out if Stagecoach hadn't been barred over the pensions liability thing.

I wasn’t clear in meaning Covid as a convenient timeframe marker as opposed to the issue being due to Covid itself. Nevertheless, it’s a far cry from 15-20 years ago - regardless of the tender specifying it, it’s far short of what East Midlands passengers used to enjoy and what they should still enjoy.

As for how things would have been had the franchise remained with Stagecoach, much worse if what I seem to remember reading once in the forums is true, namely their proposal to put 2+2 seating in first class.

 

[Amos390]

Only 2 810s out today (006 + 012), any reasons for the 3rd one not making an appearance?

 

[Paul472426]

Only 2 810s out today (006 + 012), any reasons for the 3rd one not making an appearance?

Engineering work at Dore might be a reason?

 

[Killingworth]

Engineering work at Dore might be a reason?

Engineering work that seems to have hit a problem and will need deferring until next weekend!

 

[tram21]

Engineering work that seems to have hit a problem and will need deferring until next weekend!

Really? That might cause issues with the ECML closure on Sunday

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2026 ==

810006 experienced a 34 minute delay at Leicester due to a fault, but is on the move again now.