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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
- Thread starter MattA7
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I sincerely hope you are well enough to still be with us tomorrow, as then you can pop out and buy a 5 year old Tesla 3 Long Range with original WLTP of almost 400 miles (likely to be ~350 now) for under 12k.
I hear this from various EV deniers, including old father BR. How do you set off on a long journey with a full tank?
Assuming you bought in on June 2018, that £14k is the equivalent of £22k now. For that money you‘ll get a Skoda Enyaq for a 12-18 month old car, or on Omoda E5, a Nissan Ariya (same as the Omoda), Toyota bZ4X, a Peugeot E308 estate or E2008, Vauxhall Frontera electric, Hyundai Ioniq5 and many more.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
That's a little bit pedantic. If I'm doing a long drive tomorrow, I could go to the nearby Tesco now and fill the tank. Sure I'd use a tiny amount of that fuel driving the c.300m back to my flat, but the tank will still be "full" in the morning.
Likewise if your battery is at 99%, it's basically still a full charge.
thejuggler
Established Member
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The question remains. What significant benefits does an EV offer to the private buyer over an hybrid/pure ICE? Until all the downsides of an EV, whether actual or perceived, are overcome there will be resistance and sales will plateau.
Stellantis group aren't convinced of immediate uptick in sales and are relaunching diesels in an effort to make money.
Stellantis group aren't convinced of immediate uptick in sales and are relaunching diesels in an effort to make money.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Sadly, two redundancies (first I, then my wife) since that time, means we do not have the luxury of budgeting it that much. Hence £18k absolute ceiling.
My point is that old father BR (and I suspect many others) say that they don’t want to have to stop for a charge on such a long drive, but are seemingly ok to make a special trip out specifically to fill up with petrol beforehand. When many (albeit not all) can be plugged in and fully charged at home without having to make that trip beforehand.
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Cost. Peace and quiet. Knowing you are doing less harm to the planet and future generations.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Part of it is simply changing long-established habits. Filling up with fuel takes a few minutes and people have been doing it for decades, recharging is new to most people and can take an indeterminate amount of time depending on the type of charger, how busy the charging station is, how long you might have to wait for a charger to become free. In part it's fear of the unknown, but in part it's simply a recognition that this newfangled way of doing things is actually worse in some ways. Maybe the compromises are worth it, maybe they aren't.
Trust me, they are!
cactustwirly
Established Member
Basically nothing, it's an annoying heavy car which is expensive to charge if you don't have a charger.
Probably Chinese which is questionable for many reasons.
If you have a car charger and you have it as a second car runaround it makes some sense
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
It is literally the cheapest listing for an EV on Autotrader, I don't expect it to be incredible (there are more expensive EVs on there listed as only suitable for scrap or extensive repair).
If I actually needed a car I would investigate further and probably have a slightly higher budget (and would probably ask for advice in this very thread).
A 50 mile charge would be good enough for me to do my current commute and only need to charge once a week, or just about enough to get to and from anywhere in the county on one charge.
If close enough to make it to a charger, go and charge it, or if immobile call for assistance, just as you would for a fault with an internal combustion car.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Running out of charge - same as running out of fossil fuel - is only a fault if the car charging-indicator / fuel gauge showed ample charge / fuel range.
If you end up immobile through own poor jidgement and not taking responsibility to ensure you've sufficient range for your journey, many breakdown companies won't come out unless you paid a premium for "empty tank" cover on your policy.
In short far lower running and maintenance costs
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So any car showing a low fuel light, or a range of less than 50 miles on the odometer is a hazard? Please...
I would suggest everyone who is sceptical about the charging aspects of an EV take a look at A Better Route Planner.
I put in an imaginary London to Milan trip - driving time just over 13 hours.
Total charging time is 52 minutes, broken down into:
- a 6 minute stop
- a 12 minute stop
- two 17 minute stops.
(Picture shows the charging destinations, durations of charge, and indicates a total price of £61)
There isn't really any ambiguity about charger availability either - certainly for Tesla, they know how many chargers are on-site, how many are currently being used, how many they anticipate being required at a particular time (from my in-car sat nav). If there's a sudden surge of visitors and there are no chargers available, the sat nav simply re-routes me to a changing station earlier/later along my route or gives me an anticipated wait time for me to decide if I still want that particular charger site. I don't have to think about that at all and for the record, I've never had to wait for a charger.
Estimated cost is £61 for 700+ miles. I'm not sure how that compares to a petrol/diesel 3 series.
(By the way, I only charge at Superchargers, I have never charged at home. Off peak Supercharging is an average of 22p per unit, 41p peak - even peak pricing is cheaper than petrol I think. The Tesla app maintains a history of payments and charge amounts and I can see I charge on average once every 2 weeks in winter, once every 3 weeks in summer.)
I just used ABRP as an example. When driving I use my car's built-in sat nav.
If you want a longer break, then take a longer break. Sat nav systems are a tool to assist the driver, not for the driver to slavishly follow at all costs. That's the same advice for ICE cars as it is for EVs.
In the London to Milan example, if you stop for 40 minutes instead of 6, then the sat nav will just recalculate when you decide to set off. (Instead of going from 12% to 34%, you would obviously be leaving with a much higher state of charge, and the car's sat nav knows this.)
I just wanted to do some myth busting around long distance travelling with an EV and give some evidence of suggested charging durations to get away from the whole "I don't want to wait for 3 hours to charge my car every 250 miles" Facebook posts.
Edit to answer your actual question: yes.
(Picture shows the route planning app adding an 'amenity stop' for a restaurant, with an elapsed time from start of journey and duration.)
(Picture shows the charging destinations, durations of charge, and indicates an additional restaurant stop en route.)
Note the total charge after the restaurant stop is 93% and the route plan has 1 fewer stop than the previous plan.
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
With all due respect, the paragraph you quoted was specifically a reply to Bald Rick's comment about his father. It's a bit much to expect older drivers to all fall in line with the brave new world of EVs without some resistance. No doubt some older drivers have embraced EVs, my own mother included- but not everybody is in a position to do so.
Personally, I don't want a car that I won't enjoy driving, nor one I can't do basic repairs on myself. If you do, knock yourself out... but don't drag me along with you. If EVs really are superior then they'll win out in the end and I'll have to get over it and rush down to my local Chineseum Motors dealership with my tail between my legs.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
+
Actually I can see a danger. Someone eeking out the last bit of life from an old EV might be tempted to get the battery pack replaced/improved on the cheap. I know battery fires are not as likely as some want to believe BUT it is going to be old battery packs or tampered with battery packs that will be more of a hazard.
The parallel would be someone fixing a leaking petrol tank with a bodge.
But a replacement petrol tank is a lot cheaper than a battery pack.
The point is: there is no brave new world. If you can plug a kettle into a socket, you can plug a cable into a car. Tesla (especially) knew this when they designed their infrastructure. It's literally push a plug in and walk away.
(As a slight aside, the older I get the more I resent people assuming 'older' people aren't capable of adapting. It's a fallacy.)
And nobody here is asking you to. You will theoretically be able to drive whichever kind of vehicle you like indefinitely. I'm sure petrol cars will be around for the next 50 years at least. Whether you have the same access to petrol, or access to a mainstream insurance provider at a price that doesn't prohibit your ICE car being related to a purely 'weekend car' is another matter.
"I don't want to..." is also a valid reason for not doing something, but it's disingenuous for the media to pretend it's because of, not enough range, can't charge anywhere, massive queues, fires, can't drive long distances, what about when Great Aunt Violet needs me at 3am, or any other hogwash.
A few years ago there was loads of talk/hype about smart fuels, implying we'd soon have fuel for ICE cars that were good for the environment or something. Porsche was apparently heavily involved with the fossil fuel companies and more (I can't remember the specifics). I think it's all gone rather quiet now, but we do have the Americans talking about their beloved 'clean coal'.
You don't need to actually do anything you say, just let those who are already cynical about things like electric cars think that there's no need to switch if they've found a way to make a clean, sustainable and non-polluting fuel for their existing vehicle. Until they can use said fuel, they'll just keep buying the regular petrol and diesel.
Changing a battery in an EV isn't like pulling out a string of AAs and whacking some new ones in. For starters the whole pack is coded to the car so a full pack replacement needs specialist software to do this. Individual cells in the pack can be replaced, but this requires heavy lift kit to get the battery out of the car, and then proper tools and knowledge to identify and replace any failed cells, as playing with high voltage circuits is not for the average back yard DIYer
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It could probably be considered comparable in skill/knowledge/equipment required to changing the engine on an ICE car. Some people have the skills and kit to do this, but most DIYers don't. But equally the majority of cars will rust away before either becomes necessary.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
I agree. But some will try, and partially succeed.
There is a lot of money to be saved by cutting these corners.
The more desperate to save money someone is then the less likely they are to be careful about safety.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Depends where you live. Almost every house in Milton Keynes has a driveway. And most blocks of flats here have allocated parking where eventually demand will mean slow chargers are installed.
Go to Lancaster, for instance, though, and hardly anyone does.
That might mean the people of Lancaster may not be early adopters, but that does not give a reason why the people of MK should not be. One of the issues on this thread is there is a prevailing undertone of "I have a good reason I cannot use an EV, therefore nobody should".
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And some will try to make changes to an ICE vehicle and that will go up in flames as a result too (or will go out of control and hit and kill someone).
And they'll mess with their boiler and blow up their neighbours' house.
And they'll mess with their wiring and burn their and their neighbours' house down.
There's really not much that can be done about this sort of thing (bar prosecuting people who do these things and it results in bad stuff happening as a discouragement). It's certainly not a reason not to have EVs.
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Came here to say this. While I tend to brim each time I fill up, plenty of people just put 20 quid in if they're just bimbling around town in that car. And as fuel is heavy there's a fair bit to be said for doing that...
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But overridingly current generations, here and now - it isn't just about carbon. I'd urge anyone who hasn't been to London for a while to go there and see just how clean the air in the centre now is. It's better than many rural villages (as the latter often have lots of older diesels chugging around), and the reason is that almost all cars in central London are now EVs (and those which aren't are ULEZ compliant). I'd love it if we saw e.g. a reduction in asthma rates as a result.
That's why EVs would be worthwhile even if charged from a coal fired power station. Power stations are usually in the sticks (cheaper land, fewer complaints) and so pollution at the point of use is still minimised.
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Or if you want a hatchback style car the MG4 is an excellent vehicle (gets absolutely rave reviews) and would come in under that £14K for a three year old car. I just wish they'd do the once-proposed estate - I'd buy one straight away brand new, and I never buy new generally!
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
I was thinking perhaps a battery thermal runaway incident is worse than the other examples you give.
If someone has tinkered with their EV battery it could miss-behave anywhere - not just in the idiots home.
I think banger EVs will for the current be more of a can of worms than ICEs because the EV bangers are a very immature product compared to similarly aged ICEs - say 10-15 years old range. So for the imminent future I can see a lot of banger age EVs producing disproportionate bad experiences and bad publicity for EVs. Give it another ten years and banger EVs will be catching up I hope. So todays brand new EVs should make better EV bangers 10-15 years down the line than the current EV bangers built 10-15 years ago do.
thejuggler
Established Member
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EV and ICE have very similar total cost of ownership. so no financial gain.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This depends on mileage. EVs cost more to buy but if you have home charging next to nothing to run. Thus someone with a low mileage would find a petrol cheaper, someone with a high mileage would find an EV cheaper, and there will be a point in the middle where they're about the same.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Leaving aside my personal preference, my position has always been that EVs aren't suitable for everyone (subject to technology improvements in the future) therefore the case for wholesale adoption isn't there (yet).
Certain segments of the wider vehicle fleet, particularly long distance LGVs, are a long way from being able to transition outside of a few edge-cases for publicity and "greenwashing". Unless you believe Mr. Musk aka "Electric Jesus" and his increasingly dubious proclamations. The next "great leap forwards" on that front almost certainly won't be the Tesla Semi.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This goes down to "what does wholesale mean". Would it be viable for pretty much everyone who has a driveway and can afford the purchase price to get an EV instead of their current ICE when they next change cars? Almost certainly yes. And that is a lot of people. And a lot of pollution at the point of use removed.
And there are some "reasons" that are spurious, such as people who are driving 500 miles non stop (iron bladders!) who really should be prevented from doing so. The tachograph rules are a good guide for the most driving any given driver should even consider doing in one go even if they're not legally applicable, and EVs having a slightly lesser range than ICEs might help with that. But as most mainstream EVs have a range of 200+ miles now, they would work for most people, and those driving long distances often stand to save a fortune, at least until adoption gets very high at which point taxation is likely to catch up.
Not all batteries are coded, and hopefully the EU will make this illegal under right to repair laws. I think Tesla is one, but I've seen plenty of videos of people changing and upgrading batteries on a Nissan Leaf or BMW i3 (and other early EVs that came with small batteries, where people are now replacing them with bigger packs for extended range).
As you say, batteries can be repaired, with many companies already doing so - and seemingly without news of them burning down on a regular basis. Cell balancing is known and understood, and companies are likely able to replace individual modules quite easily, before going to down to cell level. Battery management systems are also able to cope with bad cells to some degree.
I'm not an expert on this by any means, but there seems to be a lot of misconceptions about batteries. For sure, you and I won't be doing any such repairs, but it's not unreasonable to expect that when trained professionals working on batteries become more of a thing, you will get a future generation of people who may well be able to do repairs, much like your local mechanic used to be able to work on cars before they became computers on wheels.
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The costing more to buy an EV thing isn't likely to be a thing for much longer. EVs are getting cheaper all the time, and the choice and availability of ICE cars is going down. Few people should probably ever buy a brand new car, just as they shouldn't with ICE cars, so when you look at second hand (including ex-demo with low mileage and sometimes even the same year plate) the differences shrink even further.
Yes, Stellantis will now keep selling diesel cars in selected markets a bit longer - but I don't think anyone should fool themselves that this is going to see a massive swing in sales from EV to diesel.
I also think that when cities move to the next phase where they likely ban ICE cars in centres, or charge hefty fees, the resale prices of some ICE cars will fall through the floor. But that's still a way off for most people.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It'll be interesting to see how far ZEZs (zero emissions zones) get. I think London might consider it within Zone 1 as per the original LEZ. Oxford already has, and a few other particularly anti-car places like Cambridge might. But I think the development of vehicles and increased uptake of EVs is likely to render such zones unnecessary in a lot of places. It's already the case that there are almost no non-ULEZ compliant petrols still on the road, another ten years and there'll be hardly any such diesels either.