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This may be an auld wives’ tale but I’ve heard that there’s some TOCs that have to ask control’s permission to release doors if stopped out of course at a regular platform. If so, disagree
That's why the new South Eastern Railway IRB has done away with them, except for things like leaving a depot or other instances where the brakes might have changed since the last RBT.
This may be an auld wives’ tale but I’ve heard that there’s some TOCs that have to ask control’s permission to release doors if stopped out of course at a regular platform. If so, disagree
Well that depends on context. If the train uses ASDO which is not set up for that platform and/or the train does not fit the platform then I would expect control wanting to have some say in the matter. Last thing you want is someone falling from the train.
This may be an auld wives’ tale but I’ve heard that there’s some TOCs that have to ask control’s permission to release doors if stopped out of course at a regular platform. If so, disagree
If I was to release doors at a station I’m not booked to call at due to disruption etc, I would have to get permission from control first even if it’s a station we normally call at with other services, control are normally on the ball with this and contact the driver via GSMR so a clear understanding of what’s happening can be made
This may be an auld wives’ tale but I’ve heard that there’s some TOCs that have to ask control’s permission to release doors if stopped out of course at a regular platform. If so, disagree
Certainly true at my TOC, and rather frustratingly when stopped out of course somewhere you're not booked to call, it's often because of a serious incident making it a challenge to contact control because they're so inundated with phone calls!
If a train is sat a station its called at and the guard has closed the doors, if the train crew realise their going to be sat there a while due to disruption can the doors be opened again?
I asked this as once I was on a Northern train from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester and we got delayed at Westhoughton, guard went through the whole dispatch procedure shutting the doors but for some reason we were then delayed and didn't move so what was wrong with just releasing the doors again?
If a train is sat a station its called at and the guard has closed the doors, if the train crew realise their going to be sat there a while due to disruption can the doors be opened again?
I asked this as once I was on a Northern train from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester and we got delayed at Westhoughton, guard went through the whole dispatch procedure shutting the doors but for some reason we were then delayed and didn't move so what was wrong with just releasing the doors again?
I would assume that's fine, providing the bells haven't been given to the driver. At my TOC, we are permitted to re-release the doors for whatever reason at a booked station, though I can't speak for other TOCs.
In some situations, closing the doors on a red.Especially at mandatory dispatch stations.
If I'm already full and standing, and we're beyond departure time, I have to keep my doors open, allowing more folks on board. Then, when we do get the road, I have to go along the platform,possibly getting people to leave the service, so we can depart.
Once departure time comes, and goes, 'departed' services should be removed from the board and doors closed. However, if we haven't moved for two minutes, or so, I accept that there should be a door release to allow fresh air in etc. Requires excellent Comms from Traincrew to execute.
Funny you should say that. At Euston, I have called control and said the train is becoming dangerously overcrowded and told them I'm closing the doors and get station staff to close the platform awaiting departure. Even if I don't have the signal. As long as I've made passengers onboard aware of the doors being closed there's no risk. I'm not going to start the dispatch process.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
If a train is sat a station its called at and the guard has closed the doors, if the train crew realise their going to be sat there a while due to disruption can the doors be opened again?
Do this at standard. Essentially aborting dispatch. Did it the other day at Stafford when I had the road but a failed freight train was blocking the line after the next signal.
Well that depends on context. If the train uses ASDO which is not set up for that platform and/or the train does not fit the platform then I would expect control wanting to have some say in the matter. Last thing you want is someone falling from the train.
No traincrew are going to open doors onto the track. The first thing you do when stopping at an unusual location. Is check that you're fully accommodated.
There's no need for control to have some say if a signaller has told me we are going to be there for an extended amount of time - at my TOC it's normal practice and the train crew are all trained in how to dispatch from a location where we don't normally call.
During a major incident control are busy with getting the railway back running.
If a train is sat a station its called at and the guard has closed the doors, if the train crew realise their going to be sat there a while due to disruption can the doors be opened again?
Usually happens that while guard is dispatching, signaller is in phone to driver. Train is locked up, guard gives two and nothing happens. Then driver calls and says".... Not going anywhere because xyz." So, confirm no moving for a while, I also confirm with driver that he is still at his stopping position and is accommodated (belt and braces, I suppose) then let passengers know encourage them to step out and have a smoke, whatever, and release doors.
Then, you do your bits, if needed- HiViz on, so passengers can spot you- headcount for replacement busses, vulnerables and then wait up with driver for info.
This may be an auld wives’ tale but I’ve heard that there’s some TOCs that have to ask control’s permission to release doors if stopped out of course at a regular platform. If so, disagree
That can cause its own problems, especially if you then have a Passenger Train Interface incident, causing further delays. Also, you have no idea how long an incident may be, so for the sake of a couple of minutes, you could be introducing unnecessary risks.
Personally, I ask for a few minutes grace from the passengers, call control and state my intentions, ie if we haven't moved in x mins, I'm at y station, fully accommodated, I will release the doors. Only ever done this on full and standing trains, when it's cramped and uncomfortable. Control have said, yeah fine, look after your train, but at least if anything goes wrong, I've covered myself beforehand. It's also one less thing for control to worry about as they know your status and situation and that you're safe in a platform, not in need of urgent attention. As well, control may have info that, for the sake of a couple of minutes, hang tight and you'll be on the move.
No traincrew are going to open doors onto the track. The first thing you do when stopping at an unusual location. Is check that you're fully accommodated.
There's no need for control to have some say if a signaller has told me we are going to be there for an extended amount of time - at my TOC it's normal practice and the train crew are all trained in how to dispatch from a location where we don't normally call.
During a major incident control are busy with getting the railway back running.
I know for certain Traincrew have released doors when a train is not fully accommodated on a platform. Makes complete sense to have these safety measures.
I know for certain Traincrew have released doors when a train is not fully accommodated on a platform. Makes complete sense to have these safety measures.
It’s a common incident on both DOO and conventionally operated stock. There can be many reasons it can occur, and it is obviously treated as an operational incident.
Stopping out of course can itself be an incident, and it can be compounded further by doors being released at an unbooked location.
I know for certain Traincrew have released doors when a train is not fully accommodated on a platform. Makes complete sense to have these safety measures.
Yes but we aren't talking about stopping short and releasing the doors. We are talking about releasing the doors at an extended unscheduled stop during disruption.
It depends on TOC policy. Some TOCs have worked at have told me to treat it as a normal signal and stop 20m short, others have told me to stop at the correct stopping marker, others have told me to always go to the very end of the platform.
My preference is to stop at the end of the platform.
Before releasing any doors - staff visually check the train is accommodated and will only open the doors if we know we are going to be there for a long time (eg fatality ahead).
Effort is made to stop trains in platforms and not at signals for this very reason.
Yes but we aren't talking about stopping short and releasing the doors. We are talking about releasing the doors at an extended unscheduled stop during disruption.
I know. But I don’t see a problem with having to run it past control in those circumstances.
You say it’s distribution and control don’t need the hassle of another call, but it’s better to make that call than one saying oops I’ve messed up you need to send a replacement guard out.
There could be local instructions at the stop, there could be asdo issues or other things that the guard isn’t prepared for.
Just makes sense to belt and braces if you ask me but obviously you feel differently.
Letting people off is one thing, but what about letting people on? I can think of at least one case where the destination of a train stopping out of course and the train advertised on the platforms are the same - it would be understandable for people to board in this case but if the stopping pattern or even the whole route is different they may end up somewhere unexpected!
It's good practice to do so. If you're then stopped out of course for any length of time, you can release the doors without having to contact the Signaller to draw forward towards the red/set back etc.
I know. But I don’t see a problem with having to run it past control in those circumstances.
You say it’s distribution and control don’t need the hassle of another call, but it’s better to make that call than one saying oops I’ve messed up you need to send a replacement guard out.
There could be local instructions at the stop, there could be asdo issues or other things that the guard isn’t prepared for.
Just makes sense to belt and braces if you ask me but obviously you feel differently.
I speak from more years experience than I care to remember rather than a personal opinion. I've been briefed on many investigations into trains that have stopped short and doors have been released onto the track - this scenario has not happened in any of them.
If it's not a normal place to stop that train then there won't be any local instructions or asdo installed. If the stock stops there on other services etc, then any local instructions would be part of the crews route knowledge and asdo would be installed.
This is why the driver/guard would visually check before releasing any doors, and effectively do everything in "degraded mode" with extra manual checks.
At my TOC this is all covered in our competencies - however control aren't competent in train dispatch or train driving.
Staff these days have access to many different IT systems to see what's going on during disruption, and it's easy to make an educated guess how long you'll be somewhere.
The most recent time I released the doors at an unscheduled station, the signaller had called me while on the move asking me to stop, the signals remained greens, and as I knew what the problem ahead was, and the messages coming through were making it clear we would be there for a long time - the guard asked me to open the doors. I simply opened the cab door to check we were fully accommodated and released them. When it was time to go, the guard dispatched from a door where he could see the entire length of the train. Simples.
This isn't me saying control should be kept in the dark or shouldn't be involved - it's simply me saying that during disruption they have better things to be doing than telling a train crew that they can make a decision they're allowed to make and carry out procedures they are trained to do.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
It's good practice to do so. If you're then stopped out of course for any length of time, you can release the doors without having to contact the Signaller to draw forward towards the red/set back etc.
Letting people off is one thing, but what about letting people on? I can think of at least one case where the destination of a train stopping out of course and the train advertised on the platforms are the same - it would be understandable for people to board in this case but if the stopping pattern or even the whole route is different they may end up somewhere unexpected!
This is considered before releasing the doors in my experience. Generally if you're waiting somewhere long enough to release the doors, the platforms have been closed as trains aren't going anywhere.
I speak from more years experience than I care to remember rather than a personal opinion. I've been briefed on many investigations into trains that have stopped short and doors have been released onto the track - this scenario has not happened in any of them.
If it's not a normal place to stop that train then there won't be any local instructions or asdo installed. If the stock stops there on other services etc, then any local instructions would be part of the crews route knowledge and asdo would be installed.
This is why the driver/guard would visually check before releasing any doors, and effectively do everything in "degraded mode" with extra manual checks.
At my TOC this is all covered in our competencies - however control aren't competent in train dispatch or train driving.
Staff these days have access to many different IT systems to see what's going on during disruption, and it's easy to make an educated guess how long you'll be somewhere.
The most recent time I released the doors at an unscheduled station, the signaller had called me while on the move asking me to stop, the signals remained greens, and as I knew what the problem ahead was, and the messages coming through were making it clear we would be there for a long time - the guard asked me to open the doors. I simply opened the cab door to check we were fully accommodated and released them. When it was time to go, the guard dispatched from a door where he could see the entire length of the train. Simples.
This isn't me saying control should be kept in the dark or shouldn't be involved - it's simply me saying that during disruption they have better things to be doing than telling a train crew that they can make a decision they're allowed to make and carry out procedures they are trained to do.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Yes, I agree. When I was DOO I would always stop at the last set of monitors/mirrors though, whatever train length I had.
At many stations I could stop at a 12 car stop with a 4 car and I'm well away from any passengers.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
This is considered before releasing the doors in my experience. Generally if you're waiting somewhere long enough to release the doors, the platforms have been closed as trains aren't going anywhere.
Hopefully the platform info screens show 'Stand back, the train approaching may not be stopping at this platform' instead of details of a scheduled train expected at the platform.
Also a little PA before departing to remind passengers of the destination and scheduled stops before departing mitigates the issue of those unexpected boarders.
This may be an auld wives’ tale but I’ve heard that there’s some TOCs that have to ask control’s permission to release doors if stopped out of course at a regular platform. If so, disagree
I'd rather contact control tbh. Make sure they're aware of the situation and that we're stopped out of course for a legitimate reason. Also an opportunity to get any extra information/instructions from control and find out if you're likely to be stopped long enough to make releasing the doors worthwhile.
If a train is sat a station its called at and the guard has closed the doors, if the train crew realise their going to be sat there a while due to disruption can the doors be opened again?
This is considered before releasing the doors in my experience. Generally if you're waiting somewhere long enough to release the doors, the platforms have been closed as trains aren't going anywhere.
Hopefully the platform info screens show 'Stand back, the train approaching may not be stopping at this platform' instead of details of a scheduled train expected at the platform.
Also a little PA before departing to remind passengers of the destination and scheduled stops before departing mitigates the issue of those unexpected boarders.
I have to disagree with this one. It gives an early indicator of brake performance which can vary between units. I do mine in set locations, compliant with our PDP, so it is noticeable if a unit has a softer brake and I can account for it at the next stop. It’s also useful for checking the railhead conditions.
I agree with you but I have to add that running brake tests shouldn’t use dynamic braking (if one is present) as it doesn’t give true performance of braking capabilities. The sleeper incident at Edinburgh springs to mind.
I agree with you but I have to add that running brake tests shouldn’t use dynamic braking (if one is present) as it doesn’t give true performance of braking capabilities. The sleeper incident at Edinburgh springs to mind.
The Rule I'd question is in the Track Circuit Block Regulations; what the signaller must do if there is a Track Circuit failure.
The Rule (and I paraphrase, as I don't have the Regulations to hand) is that the signaller should NOT set the route, but should key all sets of points in the route (and others as required by the Route Tables), then authorise the train to pass the entry signal at danger.
The purpose of the rule is two-fold:
a) if the track circuit failure is intermittent, it prevents the entry signal unexpectedly clearing and reverting to danger ahead of the train
b) if the faulty track circuit is before any points in the route, then those points will remain locked even after the passage of the train, so preventing any other moves over that junction until the track circuit clears again.
Both very valid reasons. But...
I investigated an incident a few years ago, where the faulty track circuit was the last in the route - i.e. after any points or conflicting moves. The junction was a conventional double-line junction - trains from A could turn left to B, or turn right to C. The faulty track circuit was after the junction, on the line towards C. The signaller had keyed the points for a train to travel from A towards C, and authorised it to pass the signal at danger. A second train then approached from B. Even though the first train had not yet reached the junction, the signaller keyed all the points centre, then set the route for the train to travel from B to A - causing some of the points ahead of the first train to swing. The first train then "ran through" the trailing points and damaged them.
If the signaller had set the route for the first train, then the route-locking over the points would have been maintained, and setting route for the second train would have been impossible. Although such route-setting is contravening the above rule, it would have (in this instance) saved the signaller from making a costly and potentially more dangerous mistake.
Possibly. Depends on how often you ride a particular route, and when you board the train.
If you board at the origin station, and there's been either a change of driver, or a change of ends (service came in one way,then goes out the same direction it came in) then there'll usually be a brake test, soon after departure.
Train will get out of the station, onto relatively straight/uncluttered lines and will accelerate normally, then you'll feel the brakes come on, not gentle, not slammed, for such time as to drop the speed by a noticeable amount (10mph, I think?), then the train will then accelerate onwards again. Wherever it happens, it'll be a consistent point across all drivers, always at the same point in the journey ie off the bend, be doing 50 at the bridge, x% brake and you should be doing 40 by x point. That's your breaking performance, adjust driving style according.
There may be additional tests during the journey, particularly in heavy snow, to keep the wheels clear, but a lot of units have a snow setting that automatically cycles the brakes while in motion.
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