Can TPE operate 10-car trains?

[Old Yard Dog]

I had the misfortune to pick up the 1801 Newcastle - Liverpool TPE working at Durham yesterday only to find the 5-car set ramjam full of Everton and Newcastle supporters. Realising that this might be the case, I had successfully upped my Seatfrog 1st class upgrade bid from the top of a bus with a minute to spare, but some hope. Happy Everton fans had commandeered first class as a bottle bar making it standing room only and obviously weren't going to give up a seat. Luckily I found somewhere to sit in standard approaching York so only had to stand for 40-45 mins. To add to the fun, lots of Leeds and Manchester City fans boarded at Leeds, that game having kicked off at 1730. The atmosphere was boisterous throughout the journey but without a hint of trouble.

What occurred to me was this. TPE were only running a limited service due to engineering works between Leeds and York so, presumably, had a few sets parked up in depots. So why couldn't they couple a pair of sets together and run a 10-car train? Could they not have foreseen the likely problems with four groups of Premier League fans trying to get home of same train(s)?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Manchester Victoria can't fit 260 metres, platform 3 is 254m (P4 is 224m), so very close, but that would end any chance of it being longer.
Likewise only platform 6, 9 and 10 at Liverpool Lime Street could fit a double 802.

And that service starts from one of the bay platforms at Newcastle, which definitely can't fit 10 carriages.


I believe the longest service TPE have operated was 8 car 350s on the WCML.

 

[Spartacus]

Platform lengths off the ECML would be a huge issue, even at Leeds & Liverpool only 3 usable platforms could take a 10 car. You'd have to knock out the Chester le Street stop too.

 

[185143]

They definitely have ran at least one 10 car 802, as I travelled on it from Newton le Willows to Manchester Victoria. December 2021 I think? I'll find the details.

It messed up the reservations as while only the front 5 coaches were in use, the internal PIS displayed the coaches with incorrect letters as if it were a 10 car formation. I travelled in Coach J.

I seem to remember hearing another one had happened on the ECML, dragging one not fit for service back to a depot.

 

[a_c_skinner]

An interesting microcosm of the railway in these (correct and reasonable) answers. We've tolerated short platforms even in stations recently rebuilt. We've eschewed a good, national, selective door opening solution. Equally the people in the know (like those helpful replies above) are highly versed in why things cannot be done. If they cannot, they cannot but the sub-text on these fora often seems to be that we are content that things cannot be done.

 

[185143]

They definitely have ran at least one 10 car 802, as I travelled on it from Newton le Willows to Manchester Victoria. December 2021 I think? I'll find the details.

It messed up the reservations as while only the front 5 coaches were in use, the internal PIS displayed the coaches with incorrect letters as if it were a 10 car formation. I travelled in Coach J.

I seem to remember hearing another one had happened on the ECML, dragging one not fit for service back to a depot.

EDIT:

1P17 on 23/08/21. 802203 and 802219 worked it. Don't know how far they both went as I bailed at Manchester, but both units definitely went past Manchester.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

EDIT:

1P17 on 23/08/21. 802203 and 802219 worked it. Don't know how far they both went as I bailed at Manchester, but both units definitely went past Manchester.

Realtime trains reports they were together to York, where 802203 split and went to the depot

It has a couple platform changes listed, P6 at Liverpool Lime St, and P12 at Leeds.

It arrived at York 1.5 minutes late and left York 6 minutes late, presumably losing quite a bit of time to detaching.


For those with RTT+, the link is

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G82147/2021-08-23/detailed

 

[David Bullock]

Iirc they ran doubles during industrial action when it was all kicking off.

I remember seeing a pair running together over marsh lane viaduct while waiting for a bus

 

[JonathanH]

You'd have to knock out the Chester le Street stop too.

EMR seem to have approval to have a part of the train which isn't available on double formations at Long Eaton. I guess there have never been sufficient units available for services calling at Chester-le-Street to be dealt with likewise.

 

[Bayum]

Platform lengths off the ECML would be a huge issue, even at Leeds & Liverpool only 3 usable platforms could take a 10 car. You'd have to knock out the Chester le Street stop too.

Why would Leeds be an issue given the platforms are long enough for a 9+2 225 set?

 

[Spartacus]

Why would Leeds be an issue given the platforms are long enough for a 9+2 225 set?

It might be 4 through platforms that could take a 10 car 810, rather than 3 (I'd under-estimated the length of 9, it's just long enough) but still those don't include 15 or 16, the most appropriate for TPE, especially during any Castleford diversions, there's a lot of west end conflicts using the others (leaving 8 or 9 towards Castleford involves blocking everything west apart from the bays, Morley isn't much better, and 8 spends an enormous amount of time occupied by LNER anyway), while using 11 or 12 would mean using whole platforms that are often used for 2 trains. Not saying the use of 8, 9, 11 or 12 couldn't be done, but it would certainly be problematic.

Overall probably better running a relief terminating at Leeds if there's the staff.

 

[yorksrob]

Manchester Victoria can't fit 260 metres, platform 3 is 254m (P4 is 224m), so very close, but that would end any chance of it being longer.
Likewise only platform 6, 9 and 10 at Liverpool Lime Street could fit a double 802.

And that service starts from one of the bay platforms at Newcastle, which definitely can't fit 10 carriages.


I believe the longest service TPE have operated was 8 car 350s on the WCML.

Bring back platform 11 - the longest platform in the world, apparently !

I went through Man Vic on Saturday morning and it seemed to be struggling a bit.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Bring back platform 11 - the longest platform in the world, apparently !

I went through Man Vic on Saturday morning and it seemed to be struggling a bit.

Perhaps revealing my age but I can certainly remember as a youngster boarding a class 50 hauled service to Lancaster back in 1971, was it not though Europe’s longest platform rather than the world’s? Other than that most definately agree!

 

[Segedunum]

It might be 4 through platforms that could take a 10 car 810, rather than 3 (I'd under-estimated the length of 9, it's just long enough) but still those don't include 15 or 16, the most appropriate for TPE, especially during any Castleford diversions, there's a lot of west end conflicts using the others (leaving 8 or 9 towards Castleford involves blocking everything west apart from the bays, Morley isn't much better, and 8 spends an enormous amount of time occupied by LNER anyway), while using 11 or 12 would mean using whole platforms that are often used for 2 trains. Not saying the use of 8, 9, 11 or 12 couldn't be done, but it would certainly be problematic.

Overall probably better running a relief terminating at Leeds if there's the staff.

Planning additional full-length movements into 8/9/11/12 is tricky at best. If it was late at night (eg. for a post-event strengthening where you'd stick 10 cars on the last Liverpool-Newcastle then split at York and send half to Doncaster IEP) you might have more luck.

Otherwise like you say, a shorter additional into 15/16 is going to be more fruitful so long as there's a path for it (not always a given).

(Speaking as someone who plans trains in that general area!)

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps revealing my age but I can certainly remember as a youngster boarding a class 50 hauled service to Lancaster back in 1971, was it not though Europe’s longest platform rather than the world’s? Other than that most definately agree!

Yes, I might have been over-egging it

 

[lrbvoyager]

They would be able to operate 10 coach nova 2’s (397s) on the whole WCML route with the only station not long enough to accommodate it being Manchester airport and possibly Oxford Road.

 

[thealexweb]

They would be able to operate 10 coach nova 2’s (397s) on the whole WCML route with the only station not long enough to accommodate it being Manchester airport and possibly Oxford Road.

TPE's double 350s could not allow all doors to open at Oxford Road at only 8x20m...

 

[mike57]

To me the ability to run longer trains is key to getting the most out of a route like TPE North.

It should be a simple way of increasing capacity. 3 and 5 car units are using up capacity. This is the drawback of the units purchased, buying additional carriages and strengthening existing units to at least 7 cars, maybe more, would make sense but seems to be impossible.

Sensible use of SDO needs to become the norm, as well as clear signage and announcements (which is surely not difficult) also manage it by seat reservations, put reservations for journeys between the stations where the full train can be accomodated into the coaches that need SDO at certain stations.

Surely increasing train length make more sense than trying to run a more frequent service, as trying to squeeze more trains through results in a less robust timetable

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TPE order for 5-car class 397s with CAF had options to procure more/longer sets (6 and 7 car length I think, 7x24m would be 168m).
But that was in the heady days when TP North was planned for rapid electrification, which was "paused" and is now in the TRU project for completion after 2030.
But at least TPE was planning to operate longer trains on the route, though the CAF options were never exercised.
Double 185s are common of course, so 6x23m (138m) is quite usual (5-car 26m 802s are 130m).

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE's double 350s could not allow all doors to open at Oxford Road at only 8x20m...

Oxford Road would be the key issue, which is why in BR days InterCity trains to Scotland didn't stop there. But is missing that stop out on diagrammed 10 car services that much of a problem? Or can ASDO be used given that in effect it's just operated as a 2 platform station so blocking the points wouldn't be a great issue? 80x do have this as standard and it's used in loads of places.

 

[tbtc]

Since there's no mention of Huddersfield, does that mean that the rebuilt platforms accommodate ten coaches?

I thought that this was always a problem with suggestions for significantly longer trains (or maybe it was that ten coach units could only be accommodated on certain platforms there)?

I'd selfishly be in favour of anything that took TPE away from sixteen at Leeds, if that meant more platform capacity for the four trains an hour terminating on the Woodlesford corridor, though obviously putting TPE into the other platforms would have quite an impact upon other lines

Oxford Road I'm in two minds about. It obviously spreads passenger volumes away from the congested 13/14, and I've made the argument that anything wanting to use the Airport branch should be forced to become a stopper (since there's insufficient room for local stations to have a reasonable urban frequency given all of the non stop stuff, there's benefit in the kind of Metro frequency)

If half of Piccadilly trains skip Oxford Road/ Deansgate then passengers will adjust and learn to pay attention, but if "all but one" stop there then you can guarantee some people used to jumping on the next train only to be upset at that service passing through

 

[Failed Unit]

It is Amazing how some companies have the agreement and others do not. For example EMR now they have the 170s have many services where only 1 set fits on the platform. (I hope they use 158s in multiple instead but I understand they need SDO fitting). I understand FGW have the same problem. EMR put on the departure boards front x coaches for stations x, y and z but I am sure that people still get over-carried. Manchester Oxford Road is probably too busy however for "front set only" working

 

[The exile]

It is Amazing how some companies have the agreement and others do not. For example EMR now they have the 170s have many services where only 1 set fits on the platform. (I hope they use 158s in multiple instead but I understand they need SDO fitting). I understand FGW have the same problem. EMR put on the departure boards front x coaches for stations x, y and z but I am sure that people still get over-carried. Manchester Oxford Road is probably too busy however for "front set only" working

AIUI it’s not just a matter of agreements - it’s also a case of what kind of selective door opening is available on the trains used to operate the service (particularly if you operate a mixture of trains with different restrictions). It might be easy to have a 5-car 802 stop with the rear two coaches off the platform - but it’s a bit more problematic if it’s a 5-car turbo and the rear 2 cars are the 2-car 165 with no through corridor connection.

 

[3RDGEN]

Since there's no mention of Huddersfield, does that mean that the rebuilt platforms accommodate ten coaches?

TRU should deliver 200m platforms at Huddersfield and Dewsbury so unlikely there will be 10 coach trains.

"https://thetrupgrade.co.uk/yourstation/dewsbury/" - "By lengthening the platforms to 200 meters, longer trains will be able to stop at the station,"

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI it’s not just a matter of agreements - it’s also a case of what kind of selective door opening is available on the trains used to operate the service (particularly if you operate a mixture of trains with different restrictions). It might be easy to have a 5-car 802 stop with the rear two coaches off the platform - but it’s a bit more problematic if it’s a 5-car turbo and the rear 2 cars are the 2-car 165 with no through corridor connection.

TPE doesn't have Turbos. And all 80x are fitted with ASDO.

Perhaps 185s aren't but nobody is suggesting running those in triple

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2026 ==

TRU should deliver 200m platforms at Huddersfield and Dewsbury so unlikely there will be 10 coach trains.

To be honest 200m (likely 8x24-25m) is probably a sweet spot for all non-London long distance trains (XC included), so it's a sensible place for them to go with a new fleet. There is a reason this is a European standard for high speed operation - it is genuinely a very useful length. But that's a while off and we need solutions now, particularly for the grossly overcrowded WCML services.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Since there's no mention of Huddersfield, does that mean that the rebuilt platforms accommodate ten coaches?

I thought that this was always a problem with suggestions for significantly longer trains (or maybe it was that ten coach units could only be accommodated on certain platforms there)?

I'd selfishly be in favour of anything that took TPE away from sixteen at Leeds, if that meant more platform capacity for the four trains an hour terminating on the Woodlesford corridor, though obviously putting TPE into the other platforms would have quite an impact upon other lines

Oxford Road I'm in two minds about. It obviously spreads passenger volumes away from the congested 13/14, and I've made the argument that anything wanting to use the Airport branch should be forced to become a stopper (since there's insufficient room for local stations to have a reasonable urban frequency given all of the non stop stuff, there's benefit in the kind of Metro frequency)

If half of Piccadilly trains skip Oxford Road/ Deansgate then passengers will adjust and learn to pay attention, but if "all but one" stop there then you can guarantee some people used to jumping on the next train only to be upset at that service passing through

Newcastle - Liverpool services don't call at Oxford Road.

On Saturday, my 5-car train called at Brighouse, which could only cope with 4 cars. It used P16 at Leeds, reversing out, and arrived at P3 at Lime Street.

 

[The exile]

TPE doesn't have Turbos. And all 80x are fitted with ASDO.

Perhaps 185s aren't but nobody is suggesting running those in triple

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Mar 2026 ==

 

[driver9000]

Perhaps 185s aren't but nobody is suggesting running those in triple

185s have a system called CASDO (Coach based ASDO) fitted to them which relies on each vehicle reading a beacon/balise in the four foot to authorise the doors to open when the Guard gives the release.

The ASDO on an 802 asks the Driver to confirm the platform number at Oxford Road before releasing the doors although at present 397 and 802 can't call at Oxford Road platform 1 (or platform 3 at Penrith) due to ASDO issues.

 

[Spartacus]

One trouble with SDO which I've not noticed mentioned yet is that it increases station dwell times. And as someone else has said, there's platform extensions in progress right now for, i think, 7 car 802s. Really 10 car platforms would be overkill in all but extreme circumstances, as well as hugely costly to implement.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Given TPE guards now have to be in the rear set at all times, I don’t think double 802s will be happening as this would need 2 guards rostered for any service with a platform where only one unit would be accommodated.