015 due in a fortnight and 016 a fortnight after that
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Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates
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So units after that, the following observed at Aycliffe:-
810017 shunted into post production tent 810019 shunted last night into Test shed
810018 seen sat outside the production shed
810020, 810021 and 810022 were being shunted swapping between different test shed roads on Tuesday.
No units higher than 022 have been seen.
Units 018-022 are all fully fitted with seated various external wires look to be all in place.
017 no idea on build state as only seen from nose cone.
That means the final 11 units 023-033 haven’t all been built yet, or some have began on production.
Many thanks. That’s good they’ve speeded up 015 ahead of 016.
All will be in production, several will be complete but undergoing single car testing.
In October at the open day I'm sure 27 was in production.
Amos390
Member
Yeah most likely, unless they set swap but as it’s a Sunday I doubt that’s going to happen. The also appear to have reused the original 2 flows from when only 2 810s ran at once, with the 1B25 flow in which the 810 (013 today) only visits Nottingham being reused once again.
Today's diagrams are the usual Saturday diagrams (except for one which 222103 is covering), as I've shown in post #96 of this thread:
Class 810 Initial Diagrams
You can also identify them in the "simple" view by them being listed as "East Midlands Railway" rather than "EMR Meridian". That also seems to be visible on the mobile version of the "detailed" view but not the PC one. Thanks, that's interesting. Actually you can make the PC detailed view show...
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Amos390
Member
Since the 3rd 810 was introduced, 1B10 and 1B25 diagrams have been swapped out for 222s. The 3 810s out are being ran with the 1C11 flow, the 1C17 flow and 1C32. The original 1B10 and 1B25 flows had their timetables reverted to being operated by 222s, with the 810's timing code being swapped out for the 222s timing codes (As seen on last week's 1B10 run: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train/?c=Y12099&d=2026-02-21). I'm presuming this change was done to allow the 3 sets to operate on Sunday without need for 10-car workings, which obviously cannot be done yet.Today's diagrams are the usual Saturday diagrams (except for one which 222103 is covering), as I've shown in post #96 of this thread:
Class 810 Initial Diagrams
You can also identify them in the "simple" view by them being listed as "East Midlands Railway" rather than "EMR Meridian". That also seems to be visible on the mobile version of the "detailed" view but not the PC one. Thanks, that's interesting. Actually you can make the PC detailed view show...
222001
Member
I noticed one diagram seems to differ when the ECML closure is on.
Trainman40083
Established Member
So, with the issues with the Class 810s that are in service, are further units such as 014 onwards held back so the issues can be addressed before they are released?
Amos390
Member
Well, now that 014 is with EMR, that one will probably go through the same things as 006, 010, 011, 012 and 013 have, and likelyhood is that all the units that have been constructed up to this point will too, however as for the units that have not yet started construction, then theoretically they could get the issues addressed. I suspect though that all the units will be released like planned as of now, and that EMR will just hope the trains need 'warming in' and that give them a few months (give or take) and they should be all good, whether that actually is the case or whether we get another GWR IET moment, we'll just have to wait and see.
While ECML has had engineering works the 810s were put out on different diagrams as also mentioned in that thread. It's back to normal Saturday diagrams today
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
No issues with deliveries AFAIK. 014 was delivered yesterday with 015/016 due during March
Trainman40083
Established Member
Yes, some like 014 would have been largely built . But surely it might be worth holding back units, until issues are fixed, rather than sending them out knowing they will fail. I'm sure in time all will be fixed.
I've been led to believe Hitachi are addressing the issues long-term with all units
Amos390
Member
Oh ok, thanks. I have to say, with Nottingham being my local, I much prefer the current Saturday flow, I didn't like for the last few weeks not being able to catch any 810s at all from notts...
Railperf
Established Member
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810013 appearing to be sluggish again today based on the signal berth timings.
Amos390
Member
Yeah, looks like it may have also been held at/outside a few stations though for various reasons, the most notable being at Leicester on 1D53, where it arrived only 6L (It left STP 2L, so gained 4 mins between) but left LEI 25L, so not sure what happened to make the train gain 20 mins.
Also, obviously there were only 2 of 3 810s out today, with the 1C32 flow being subbed for 222103. Was this planned or was an 810 (possibly 006 as it would seem in the last week that the 3 in use are 006, 010 and 013) meant to be in the flow but failed in the depot?
Three 810s out today. The diagram that starts at Cricklewood will be set swapped onto an 810 in Nottingham
810011 is booked to run 3Z01 from Etches park to Kettering.
Amos390
Member
810010 was meant to be subbed in for 222103 on 1B15 at Nottingham, but that never happened, is there a reason for this (Like, an issue with 010) or did they change their minds about the set swap?
Could be as simple as no driver available to bring new unit in for swap.
Railperf
Established Member
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Looks like all three 810 diagrams started as planned including the now infamous 1C17 0700 Sheffield to St Pancras.
Analysis of the performance data suggests 810013 is significantly slower leaving stations on diesel - suggesting a traction issue (engine out or traction converter issues) or drivers having to restrain their application of power.
I've noticed - watching station starts, that the application of power is very different, and the sets seem to leave the stations far more slowly (diesel only) than 222's, and even other variants of class 800 on diesel. An Avanti Class 805 feels much quicker to 30mph!
I wonder if someone can explain why - despite these having a lot more installed power. This does seem to be a mystery. Yes drivers tell me they are allowed to pull away from a station with full power - so that seems to suggest that the controller might be in the 100% position - but the traction system is programmed to feed the power in very gradually.
Seemingly power is not being applied in full at the rail until the train reaches 30ish MPH.
Analysis of the performance data suggests 810013 is significantly slower leaving stations on diesel - suggesting a traction issue (engine out or traction converter issues) or drivers having to restrain their application of power.
I've noticed - watching station starts, that the application of power is very different, and the sets seem to leave the stations far more slowly (diesel only) than 222's, and even other variants of class 800 on diesel. An Avanti Class 805 feels much quicker to 30mph!
I wonder if someone can explain why - despite these having a lot more installed power. This does seem to be a mystery. Yes drivers tell me they are allowed to pull away from a station with full power - so that seems to suggest that the controller might be in the 100% position - but the traction system is programmed to feed the power in very gradually.
Seemingly power is not being applied in full at the rail until the train reaches 30ish MPH.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Wasn't that the way the 800/0s and 800/3s were when new ? No matter what you selected from the power controller, the computer only delivered the preprogrammed acceleration curve. I believe this was tweaked at some point in their in service development.
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superkev
Established Member
Is there any sign of more than the current 3 diagrams being introduced?
Thanks
K
Thanks
K
There is a fourth diagram due to start soon but unsure of exactly when
222001
Member
I'd imagine 014 would need to be commissioned first
Nottingham59
Established Member
At low speeds, power is not the factor that limits acceleration; it's the friction between the wheels and the rail that matters. If you try to use more power, the wheels will start to spin; wheelslip protection will activate; and this will limit the power that is actually applied to the wheels.
If all the axles of a train are driven, then the maximum starting acceleration is given by [acceleration due to gravity(g)] x [coefficient of friction(f)].
- "g" is close 10 m/s^2: i.e. every second a falling object increases speed downwards by 10m/s.
- With steel wheels on steel rails, "f" is usually between 10% and 20%, depending on how good the wheelship protection is and the condition of the rails.
A 5-car class 222 has 10 out of 20 axles driven, so only half its weight is contributing to friction on the driving wheels. Its
quoted acceleration of 0.8m/s^2 implies that it the coefficient of friction (f) for a 222 is 16%. [ g x 50% x 16% = 0.8 m/s^2]
A 5-car class 810 has only 8 out of 20 axles driven, so only 40% of its weight is contributing to driving friction. Assuming the same 16% coefficient of friction gives a slower starting acceleration for a 810 as: g x 40% x 16% = 0.64m/s^2.
I don't know about the 805, but a 5-car class 800 has a UIC classification of: 2′2′+Bo′Bo′+Bo′Bo′+Bo′Bo′+2′2′, so it has 12 out of 20 axles driven. With 60% of the weight of the train on driven axles, starting acceleration will be g x 60% x 16% = 0.96 m/s^2. That's half as fast again as a class 810 at starting speeds.
== == == ==
Note these limits only apply at starting speeds. When it is moving at 1m/s, the power required to accelerate a 250t class 810 is given by Power(P) = mass x acceleration x velocity. = 250,000 kg x 0.64m/s^2 x 1m/s = 160kW. This is a tiny fraction of the 3MW available. But at 10m/s (22mph) you need 1.6MW to achieve the same acceleration; at 20m/s (44mph) you would need 3.2MW, which is more than the 4 x 735kW diesel engines can provide.
So above around 40mph, it's the power/weight ratio that matters. A class 810 on diesel with 4x735kW = 2.94MW will outperform both a class 222 (5x559kW = 2.895MW), and a class 800 on diesel (3 x 700kW = 2.1MW).
MboroFC
Member
Hello, does anyone know if 810004 has entered passenger service yet? And if it has, do you know the date of when it ran it's first service? Thanks
222001
Member
Not yet, only 006, 010, 011, 012, & 013 have ran passenger trains so far.
810004 along with 003 remains a test unit for Hitachi operating out of Asfordy (Old Dalby test track).