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Slow running train (between Carlisle & Preston)

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railrambler

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This morning I boarded the 0911 Carlisle to Euston AWC service to Preston. All OK, until just before Shap when it slowed down and ran slow until I got off at Preston.

The new info display screens are very good on these refurbished trains and the message was “this train is behind schedule because of a late running freight train in front of this”. And indeed it ran slow all the way to Preston and when I alighted the culprit was pulling out of the station on an adjacent line. The delay was 15 minutes.

My question is - why not put this freight into a loop, and there plenty on this stretch to avoid this unnecessary delay ???
 
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hexagon789

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This morning I boarded the 0911 Carlisle to Euston AWC service to Preston. All ok until just before Shap when it slowed down and ran slow until I got off at Preston.
Must say the new info display screens are very good on these refurbished trains and the the message was “this train is behind schedule because of a late running freight train in front of this”. And indeed it ran slow all the way to Preston and when I alighted the culprit was pulling out of the station on an adjacent line. The delay was 15 minutes.
My question is - why not put this freight into a loop, and there plenty on this stretch to avoid this unessesary delay ???
Some of the freights are too long for most of the loops.
 

Port Road

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This morning I boarded the 0911 Carlisle to Euston AWC service to Preston. All ok until just before Shap when it slowed down and ran slow until I got off at Preston.
Must say the new info display screens are very good on these refurbished trains and the the message was “this train is behind schedule because of a late running freight train in front of this”. And indeed it ran slow all the way to Preston and when I alighted the culprit was pulling out of the station on an adjacent line. The delay was 15 minutes.
My question is - why not put this freight into a loop, and there plenty on this stretch to avoid this unessesary delay ???
Looks like you follwed 4M27, which lost time all the way. This train only fits in certain loops i.e. not Grayrigg or Oxenholme, and Tebay reversible loop is on the down side, so you would need to have a suitable gap to cross the down line. Even at that, the freight is on the magnet for the red -so almost at a stand- before the signal clears for the loop, and by the time the train trail-arses across the connections the overall delay would probably be as bad or worse than letting it run.....
 

driver9000

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The delay to 9M51 has been noted as 4M27 being diesel (66) vice electric (88) hauled today which started losing time south of Carstairs although it looks like it was looped at Lockerbie and Upperby Bridge. Once south of Carlisle loops long enough to hold in are limited.
 

mmh

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The obvious follow on question: why on earth are we running trains that don't fit in the loops?
 

RailwayRookie

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The obvious follow on question: why on earth are we running trains that don't fit in the loops?
Efficiency? Shorter trains means more trains for the same end result. With the lack of paths generally, then the extra driver, rolling stock, ground staff.. yada yada.
 

The Planner

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The obvious follow on question: why on earth are we running trains that don't fit in the loops?
If it ran with an electric as is booked, then its not an issue. It could also be a specially authorised load.
 

mmh

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Freight operators are private businesses serving other private businesses. Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

They shouldn't be allowed to run trains which the infrastructure hasn't been designed to support.

(This is not a reply to The Planner, but the previous posts)
 

Dr Hoo

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Freight operators are private businesses serving other private businesses. Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

They shouldn't be allowed to run trains which the infrastructure hasn't been designed to support.

(This is not a reply to The Planner, but the previous posts)
Err, because the entire railway system is an economic and logistical enabler. It means that passengers can get to work* and essential products (whether food for supermarket shelves or materials for industry*) can be delivered in an effective manner often preferably to movement by road.

*There are, of course, many other journey purposes that contribute to the public good and other commodities that sustain societal activity, exports, etc., etc..
 

GB

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Freight operators are private businesses serving other private businesses. Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

They shouldn't be allowed to run trains which the infrastructure hasn't been designed to support.

(This is not a reply to The Planner, but the previous posts)
Just because there a loops on a particular route, that doesn't mean freights have to run at a length to accommodate them all... or even any of them. They need to run at a length to accommodate what ever loop they are booked into on the schedule. If the freight is within the length limit of the route then they are playing by the rules (on lengths).
 

RailwayRookie

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Freight operators are private businesses serving other private businesses. Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

They shouldn't be allowed to run trains which the infrastructure hasn't been designed to support.

And they pay access charges to use said infrastructure, as well as their contribution to delay repay.

A loaded aggregate hopper takes 2 trucks off the road, so when you take the energy/pollution/congestion into account, running trains a little long sometimes and risking that they may, on occasion, cause an issue is probably worth it in the long run.
 

The Planner

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Freight operators are private businesses serving other private businesses. Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

They shouldn't be allowed to run trains which the infrastructure hasn't been designed to support.

(This is not a reply to The Planner, but the previous posts)
There are a substantial amount of trains that have agreement to do this.
 

DarloRich

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Freight operators are private businesses serving other private businesses. Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

They shouldn't be allowed to run trains which the infrastructure hasn't been designed to support.

(This is not a reply to The Planner, but the previous posts)
To be blunt: The freight might be more important, time critical or of higher value than you or me!
 

Falcon1200

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The obvious follow on question: why on earth are we running trains that don't fit in the loops?

I was told by a Network Rail freight manager once, on making a similar complaint, that only by running long trains did they make any money.

Why should a nationalised railway industry care about their efficiency or costs?

Because the railway does not exist for passenger trains alone, and because freight operators pay to use it.
 

3RDGEN

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Is 4M27 a DRS service, if so it's a nationalised freight operator stopping the job?
 

zwk500

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The obvious follow on question: why on earth are we running trains that don't fit in the loops?
The train in question can fit in some loops, just not all of them. Trains are routinely limited in length to the loops they are booked to use.

If you restricted trains to only fitting in the shortest loop on their route, you would only be running very short trains indeed. And short trains are not viable to the freight operators.

In the long run, extending loops, or replacing short loops with longer loops nearby, would be a better option. But that requires land and signalling interventions, which rack up quite a bit of cost.
 

pnepaul

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Just a thought: why was 4m27 not put on the through lines at Lancaster, held there while the passenger train went round it on its scheduled call?
 

GPR

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I got on this service at Wigan yesterday to Euston. Thankfully was (what felt like) running at normal speed.
 

zwk500

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Just a thought: why was 4m27 not put on the through lines at Lancaster, held there while the passenger train went round it on its scheduled call?
Because the through lines don't have particularly long standage without blocking the platform lines. A freight being recessed at Lancaster would usually be recessed using Platform 5 and the slow line to be brought right the way down to the further junction. The Freight train would also have lost more time as it waited for the passenger train to call.

Oubeck loop, south of Lancaster, would have provided a better option - it's longer (but can't remember if it's long enough for 4M27), and the Passenger train stopping at Lancaster would have allowed it to get in clear with the least impact. However it'd still have lost 5-10 minutes waiting for the Passenger to overtake and then it's running in an ever later path southwards.
 

Acathater

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Because the through lines don't have particularly long standage without blocking the platform lines. A freight being recessed at Lancaster would usually be recessed using Platform 5 and the slow line to be brought right the way down to the further junction. The Freight train would also have lost more time as it waited for the passenger train to call.

Oubeck loop, south of Lancaster, would have provided a better option - it's longer (but can't remember if it's long enough for 4M27), and the Passenger train stopping at Lancaster would have allowed it to get in clear with the least impact. However it'd still have lost 5-10 minutes waiting for the Passenger to overtake and then it's running in an ever later path southwards.
If the line through platform 6 was reinstated would that be long enough? There's an engineering siding on the south of the station that it could run into
 

saismee

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Oubeck loop, south of Lancaster, would have provided a better option - it's longer (but can't remember if it's long enough for 4M27), and the Passenger train stopping at Lancaster would have allowed it to get in clear with the least impact. However it'd still have lost 5-10 minutes waiting for the Passenger to overtake and then it's running in an ever later path southwards.
So realistically, looping it anywhere would've delayed passenger services as it wouldn't have a path anywhere they put it.
 

D1537

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So realistically, looping it anywhere would've delayed passenger services as it wouldn't have a path anywhere they put it.
I think that's the only thing you can take from this. Otherwise, letting it out at Carlisle (having known it haemorraged time over Beattock due to the traction, and knowing it would do the same over Shap) was a terrible bit of regulation.
 

driver9000

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Oubeck loop, south of Lancaster, would have provided a better option - it's longer (but can't remember if it's long enough for 4M27), and the Passenger train stopping at Lancaster would have allowed it to get in clear with the least impact. However it'd still have lost 5-10 minutes waiting for the Passenger to overtake and then it's running in an ever later path southwards.

Oubeck is about 300ft too short, Oxheys could hold it comfortably though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If the line through platform 6 was reinstated would that be long enough? There's an engineering siding on the south of the station that it could run into

Platform 6 at Lancaster doesn't need to be reinstated and with the new Indian restaurant taking shape it's not likely to be a realistic prospect now. A freight train can be routed into platform 5 and he held at the signal on the Up Passenger Loop No.2 by the canal if need be.
 

Mile Post 13

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Why on Earth do we have loops that don't fit the trains?
Originally under BR no freight train was allowed to run that did not fit into every loop on the route. The length of the loops was a factor of the maximum load that could be hauled over the route as shown in the freight train loads book.

Loops were originally designed to accommodate two locos to allow for a failed train to be dragged into the loop, plus an allowance at the entrance end to accommodate assistance from the rear and make sure that the assisting locos could stand in clear.

In the early 1980s the expansion of contained traffic resulted in traffic between Glasgow and Felixstowe exceeding the maximum that could be accommodated as the number of wagons from Basford Hall where additional freightliner wagon sets from Garston and Trafford Park were attached. The resultant train was both over-weight for a single class 86 as well as being over-length for the capacity of the loops south of Crewe.

Rather than run two trains the logical and most economical solution was taken to extend the length of the train. this being 4E76 19:30 Coatbridge FLT to Felixstowe MCT. This took 2 x 86s from Coatbridge to enable it to climb Beattock and Shap. Normally these would have come off at Basford Hall however they continued to Willesden where as far as I remember the train was worked forward by 2 x 37.

Because of the length and the weight, 4E76 was subject to special regulation in the former London Division as the only locations where it could be looped were Rugby on the Up TV slow, Bletchley in the UGL and Kings Langley Up Loop. The supervisors at Rugby and Bletchley PSBs would regularly converse with one-another with regards to the running of 4E76 when it was approaching from Nuneaton and when it would pass Rugby. Wherever possible the booked routing of 4E76 via the old line was adhered to even at the start of the morning peak to avoid the torturous diversion down into what was known as "the black hole" e.g. Northampton and the notorious 15mph PSR at the south end of the station at the bottom of the climb up to the birdcage at Roade.

Care also had to be taken in how 4E76 was run alongside other trains as if it was slowed or stopped, the two 86s would bring out the breakers if power was applied too quickly. This meant that re-starting the train or regaining speed could take a long distance. Many, many times when it was coming off a slack for example or getting a signal check, the ECR at Willesden would ring to report an OCB operation for which the ECR operator would simply simply reset the breakers and restore the traction current when we told him that 4E76 was in section. As far as I know this was the only train on BR that such arrangements applied to it.

Under Privatisation, as freight started to increase, the number of trains longer than loops along the route could accommodate increased. As I think another poster has alluded to the cost of even a small extension to a loop can result in very significant infrastructure costs, especially in terms of signalling especially should entrance signals need to be moved backwards as this will affect the spacing of signals to the rear potentially for some distance. That is why loops have not generally been extended.

I think long trains with limited looping capacity will be a long-standing feature of modern operations.

Hope this helps.
 
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zwk500

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Oubeck is about 300ft too short, Oxheys could hold it comfortably though.
Oxheys is basically at Preston though, so by that time youd be better off just running it through to the 4-track.
Why on Earth do we have loops that don't fit the trains?
For a combination of reasons, the main one being that it costs a lot of money to build loops for the longest trains and getting enough people to chip in for it is very hard.
In particular, lengthening loops usually means moving signals about, so tends not to be done unless other works are being done.
 
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