Senior Bus Passes

[Ostrich]

Just trying to settle an argument with a mate .

Is there a chip embedded in the standard plastic bus pass - (presumably yes, because you have to tap in)
If so, is any form of record kept anywhere (in the cloud) of journeys by your card number so you can be "tracked"?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Trainman40083]

Just trying to settle an argument with a mate .

Is there a chip embedded in the standard plastic bus pass - (presumably yes, because you have to tap in)
If so, is any form of record kept anywhere (in the cloud) of journeys by your card number so you can be "tracked"?

Thanks in advance!

I can't speak for other areas, but where I am, ENCTS passholders (and presumably disabled etc) just tap on, not off... So, how would they be tracked? So, neither the bus company or the local Councils that remunerate, know where these passholders actually go.

 

[Ostrich]

I can't speak for other areas, but where I am, ENCTS passholders (and presumably disabled etc) just tap on, not off... So, how would they be tracked? So, neither the bus company or the local Councils that remunerate, know where these passholders actually go.

Yes, that makes absolute sense - thank you!

My colleague's pass is coming up for renewal. He'd been googling ('nuff said!) and found something online that indicated your pass would not be renewed automatically if it hadn't been used for two years. I was trying to convince him that the local authority has no idea whether the pass has been used or not ......

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, that makes absolute sense - thank you!

My colleague's pass is coming up for renewal. He'd been googling ('nuff said!) and found something online that indicated your pass would not be renewed automatically if it hadn't been used for two years. I was trying to convince him that the local authority has no idea whether the pass has been used or not ......

Hang on. Surely tapping on shows it has been used, but not where they travelled to. Maybe they are just trying to save money by not automatically renewing to someone who has no use for it .... like they live in areas with no buses. .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2026 ==

Hang on. Surely tapping on shows it has been used, but not where they travelled to. Maybe they are just trying to save money by not automatically renewing to someone who has no use for it .... like they live in areas with no buses. .

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, that makes absolute sense - thank you!

My colleague's pass is coming up for renewal. He'd been googling ('nuff said!) and found something online that indicated your pass would not be renewed automatically if it hadn't been used for two years. I was trying to convince him that the local authority has no idea whether the pass has been used or not ......

Where operators use Ticketer ticket machines (and presumably the same would be the case with any other modern ticket machine) the pass number and boarding location are recorded for each journey, thus it's possible to identify some sort of usage pattern (albeit likely to be somewhat vague and patchy). However the local authority wouldn't ordinarily have access to that data, nor does the operator have access to any identifiable information beyond the pass number.

Your colleague's best bet would be to check the relevant local authority's website.

 

[LAIRA]

On a Ticketer machine it shows the history of when the card is tapped in

 

[Ostrich]

Ah! That sheds a different light on it. I'll suggest he checks the council website then or waits and sees if it arrives in the post - or not ......

 

[satters]

is it the case an English pass cannot be used in Wales?

 

[Trainman40083]

is it the case an English pass cannot be used in Wales?

I'd say an English pass can only be used in England, although they may be valid on some cross border routes.

 

[Renown 3B3RA]

One problem in the north west is that affluent Cheshire pensioners who wouldn’t dream of using the bus locally, obtain an ENCTS pass solely for when they visit London, where of course TfL equipment will only read Freedom passes. They then wonder why their passes are not automatically renewed after two years as the local authority will say there is no record of it being used. It really is time TfL sorted this out.

 

[CyrusWuff]

One problem in the north west is that affluent Cheshire pensioners who wouldn’t dream of using the bus locally, obtain an ENCTS pass solely for when they visit London, where of course TfL equipment will only read Freedom passes. They then wonder why their passes are not automatically renewed after two years as the local authority will say there is no record of it being used. It really is time TfL sorted this out.

At a guess that's at least partly because London readers are setup to accept contactless, Oyster and Train Company Smartcards.

If they're configured with the necessary settings for each TOC rather than the generic RDG settings, there may not be enough capacity left to include settings for all the ENCTS pass issuers as well.

As an aside, reading a TOC Smartcard on a TfL bus takes significantly longer than Oyster or Contactless, which may also have some bearing on the matter.

 

[Acathater]

Up here in antediluvian Lancashire we have to use the pass to obtain a ticket, specifying destination - which appears on the ticket.
So yes, we can be tracked - except as often as not the drivers don't bother to update the destination from the last one processed...

rather begs the question, how does the company get reimbursed - it is based on the actual journey made, or is it a standard fare?

 

[Steddenm]

Yes you can view your journey on the councils ENTCS log in if you have one, such as this from Nexus:

 

[PeterC]

One problem in the north west is that affluent Cheshire pensioners who wouldn’t dream of using the bus locally, obtain an ENCTS pass solely for when they visit London, where of course TfL equipment will only read Freedom passes. They then wonder why their passes are not automatically renewed after two years as the local authority will say there is no record of it being used. It really is time TfL sorted this out.

There is no system for reimbursement by the issuing council so why would they receive any data on out if area use even if tapped in?

I was notified that my card was expiring last year and had to explicitly request renewal. As we oldies have a distressing habit of dropping off the perch it seems perfectly reasonable not to mail out new cards automatically.

 

[davews]

Here, Bracknell, our bus passes are valid for five years, not two. They are combined with our library card and the local e+ discount system as well as the organ donor scheme which presumably have their own requirements. I seem to remember I did get a reminder when it was coming up for renewal but I had to manually do that via the council website or by visiting our library, it was not automatic and as it contains a photo I would not expect it would be.

 

[Haywain]

Here, Bracknell, our bus passes are valid for five years, not two.

Same where I live.

 

[busken]

Same where I live.

Same here in Reading. Mine just automatically renewed, but I do use it regularly.

 

[satters]

There is no system for reimbursement by the issuing council so why would they receive any data on out if area use even if tapped in?

does that mean that the bus company is not receiving any revenue for carrying passengers using passes

 

[Ostrich]

I was notified that my card was expiring last year and had to explicitly request renewal. As we oldies have a distressing habit of dropping off the perch it seems perfectly reasonable not to mail out new cards automatically.

I would think that it would be relatively easy for any given council to run a quick check on their Electoral Roll before reissuing new cards automatically, as that should give an indication as to whether the oldie was still on their perch or not. Not 100% up to date info, I grant you, as the Roll is updated annually (or at least it is where I live), but a good indicator nevertheless?

 

[richard13]

Devon passes are for 5 years. When due for renewal they will do so automatically if it has been recorded as being used in the previous 12 months. It warns that cards only used in London or broken and not recording will not renewal automatically.
The bus company and the council will see journey boarding points if the card records. I doubt that the bus company has the name and address of the person to whom the card is issued just the number. I presume the card number indicates the issuing authority.
Oyster cards and National smart cards (ITSO compliant) use different chips and software. Oyster was earlier on simple chips and a system designed for London. Oyster readers can now read some National Rail cards, but not most ITSO cards. Replacing all the hardware and software in London would be a very expensive and disruptive process. Bank smart cards are in any case reducing the need.

 

[RT4038]

does that mean that the bus company is not receiving any revenue for carrying passengers using passes

Only if their ticket machines are not recording passes. The Council for the area that the bus pass has been used in (according to the bus company's ticket machine) pays for the journey - not the Council that issued the bus pass.

In London, the bus company does not get the passenger revenue for any passenger. This all goes to TfL. As the ENCTS pass does not record on TfL supplied ticket machines, TfL takes the hit on not getting re-imbursement (effectively from DfT via London Boroughs) for actual 'out of town' pass usage [there is probably some notional payment based on surveys done at some point]. I guess they have concluded that the cost of modifying ticket machines / software is far greater than the re-imbursement foregone.

 

[Trainman40083]

Am I right in thinking that a Council reimburses ENCTS in the area it is used. .So, if I have a Derby pass, and use it in Nottingham, Nottingham pays? Or does Derby pay for its users wherever they use it?

 

[RT4038]

Am I right in thinking that a Council reimburses ENCTS in the area it is used. .So, if I have a Derby pass, and use it in Nottingham, Nottingham pays? Or does Derby pay for its users wherever they use it?

If you have a Derby pass and board in the Nottingham area, Nottingham pays.

 

[dgl]

If you have a Derby pass and board in the Nottingham area, Nottingham pays.

Quite an issue in areas frequented by older tourists.

 

[Edvid]

I presume the card number indicates the issuing authority.

Yes, specifically the first four digits after 633597 (Operator ID).

Oyster cards and National smart cards (ITSO compliant) use different chips and software. Oyster was earlier on simple chips and a system designed for London. Oyster readers can now read some National Rail cards, but not most ITSO cards.

Almost ten years ago the Oyster readers apparently had a software update for ENCTS ITSO validation, but for reasons undisclosed it was reverted and not reattempted. Not sure if it's relevant but the number of Operator IDs on TfL's system may have briefly increased by more than an order of magnitude after said update.

Replacing all the hardware and software in London would be a very expensive and disruptive process. Bank smart cards are in any case reducing the need.

As the ENCTS pass does not record on TfL supplied ticket machines, TfL takes the hit on not getting re-imbursement (effectively from DfT via London Boroughs) for actual 'out of town' pass usage [there is probably some notional payment based on surveys done at some point]. I guess they have concluded that the cost of modifying ticket machines / software is far greater than the re-imbursement foregone.

Their existing card readers are almost life-expired so TfL are currently preparing to replace them anyway. As things stand it'll probably be two years or so until they're rolled out.

 

[ChrisC]

Am I right in thinking that a Council reimburses ENCTS in the area it is used. .So, if I have a Derby pass, and use it in Nottingham, Nottingham pays? Or does Derby pay for its users wherever they use it?

In addition to this, to complicate things further, both Nottingham and Derby cities are unitary authorities, separate from the county councils of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Therefore when I use my Nottinghamshire pass to travel into Nottingham the county pays but the city pays for my return journey. I presume that is what happens.

 

[Trainman40083]

In addition to this, to complicate things further, both Nottingham and Derby cities are unitary authorities, separate from the county councils of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Therefore when I use my Nottinghamshire pass to travel into Nottingham the county pays but the city pays for my return journey. I presume that is what happens.

I wonder if it will change, when transport moves under the control of the East Midlands Combined Authority in April? With Council reorganization in Derbyshire and Notts, I'd expect something to change

 

[MartinC]

Quite an issue in areas frequented by older tourists.

But not an issue for the bus company and it promotes increased travel on a service that might not be viable. Overall it helps the local economy. I would not be surprised that, using "value for money", it boosts the local economy by much more than it costs the local council.

 

[alf]

I travel regularly on the entire 80 minute route from Bournemouth to Swanage on my pass & feel mildly guilty of the cost to Bournemouth council.
But I have been told the council only have to pay the marginal cost of my journey.

The marginal cost of carrying me on a three quarters full bus is almost zero.
Whereas the cost of a potential passenger, & their fare, bring turned away on the half hourly service if the bus is totally full because I am aboard means my marginal cost is the full bus fare.
The company has lost the fare of the turned away passenger if they are not prepared to wait another half hour...because of me.

Is the marginal cost story true & if so how is it calculated? It must satisfy the bus operators as they all accept pensioner bus passes.

 

[izvor]

But not an issue for the bus company and it promotes increased travel on a service that might not be viable. Overall it helps the local economy. I would not be surprised that, using "value for money", it boosts the local economy by much more than it costs the local council.

I'm not so sure. The amount an operator receives is pretty meagre, and well below the average fare per route, on which the calculation is based. Some years ago (and maybe still) councils had a habit of reducing the percentage paid, to save money, to which the operator would have to respond by increasing fares to redress the balance (and thus risk losing some paying passengers). Whether an equilibrium has emerged more recently I do not know.

It makes the economics of running busy coastal routes, which attract seniors from far and wide, less attractive than they ought to be.