What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

[Highlander1]

The problem with ABD/INV is that the allocation of 158 or HST doesn't always match the demand. In addition the current mixed fleet means many of the peak HSTs are replaced with 158s when units fail.

This means that the passenger experience is hugely variable, and often very poor. Hence my car gets more use than it would do given a full HST fleet.

It generally does fall with demand unless there's no other option. There's a number of services that need to be strengthened on that route but there aren't the units available. Scotrail's diesel fleet is used to its limit except the HST's due to their reliability and amount of down time for maintenance.
There's going to be a mixed fleet for many years to come.

 

[BorderCollie]

Alastair Dalton in The Scotsman is reporting that a contract between TS and the ROSCO for the remaining 222s will be signed in March 2026. They'll then go off for refurb after handback from EMR, with initial entry into service mid 2027 and full fleet by mid 2028.

 

[TrainViation]

What will the livery be for the 222s? Inter7City or classic saltire?

 

[Clansman]

What will the livery be for the 222s? Inter7City or classic saltire?

Nothing confirmed but if I was to take an educated guess then I’d say they would just use the hybrid EMT/EMR livery and just add dark blue vinyl to the doors à la what they did with the 365s.

 

[Highlander1]

Nothing confirmed but if I was to take an educated guess then I’d say they would just use the hybrid EMT/EMR livery and just add dark blue vinyl to the doors à la what they did with the 365s.

Given they are getting a full refurb I imagine they'll get more than just door vinyl. They're expected to be in service until 2035-2040. They're not just temporary cover as the 365s were

 

[Starmill]

A replacement for the SR HSTs is sorely needed, many of them are in poor condition. You know it's bad when lights, heating, toilets and electronics are failing and water is leaking inside when it rains. It's good to hear that contract negotiations are finally advancing to get replacements in.

 

[Snow1964]

Given they are getting a full refurb I imagine they'll get more than just door vinyl. They're expected to be in service until 2035-2040. They're not just temporary cover as the 365s were

That was my thinking too, would be around 23 years old at refurb, and would expect nearer 11-15 years extra (so my gut feeling is would be aiming to keep them until nearer 2038-41)

To specify a refurb properly, need to know expected lifespan, because it affects the quality (how hard wearing) of the materials and finishes used.

What we don't yet know is the Scottish configuration, if they will keep a mix of 4 and 5 car units, or if they say keep couple of end cars for spare parts and lengthen couple of other units etc. If try and use every vehicle then got to be confident not going to have a spare parts supply problem through 2030s (which is very risky when 30+ year old parts are long obsolete).

 

[D365]

What we don't yet know is the Scottish configuration, if they will keep a mix of 4 and 5 car units, or if they say keep couple of end cars for spare parts and lengthen couple of other units etc. If try and use every vehicle then got to be confident not going to have a spare parts supply problem through 2030s (which is very risky when 30+ year old parts are long obsolete).

All 22 of EMR’s remaining Class 222s are in 5 car formation. Presumably there will be an additional three intermediate cars going spare from the Lumo units when they are shortened to 6 car.

 

[hexagon789]

That was my thinking too, would be around 23 years old at refurb, and would expect nearer 11-15 years extra (so my gut feeling is would be aiming to keep them until nearer 2038-41)

To specify a refurb properly, need to know expected lifespan, because it affects the quality (how hard wearing) of the materials and finishes used.

What we don't yet know is the Scottish configuration, if they will keep a mix of 4 and 5 car units, or if they say keep couple of end cars for spare parts and lengthen couple of other units etc. If try and use every vehicle then got to be confident not going to have a spare parts supply problem through 2030s (which is very risky when 30+ year old parts are long obsolete).

Making up 4-car sets would seem very wasteful and very low on capacity.

The tender had a requirement to fulfil 19 diagrams and there will be 22 units left after the 5 Lumo ones have been taken - 44 driving cars and a total of 69 intermediate vehicles.

That would be enough to form all 22 sets as 5-car, while leaving 3 intermediates spare.

While ScotRail could I suppose take three 6-car sets, I'd bank on a homogeneous all 5-car fleet being preferred and the chosen option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

All 22 of EMR’s remaining Class 222s are in 5 car formation. Presumably there will be an additional three intermediate cars going spare from the Lumo units when they are shortened to 6 car.

My calculations agree with that.

You either have 22 all 5-car and three intermediates spare or 19 5-car and 3 6-car and no spare vehicles.

 

[Snow1964]

Making up 4-car sets would seem very wasteful and very low on capacity.

The tender had a requirement to fulfil 19 diagrams and there will be 22 units left after the 5 Lumo ones have been taken - 44 driving cars and a total of 69 intermediate vehicles.

That would be enough to form all 22 sets as 5-car, while leaving 3 intermediates spare.

While ScotRail could I suppose take three 6-car sets, I'd bank on a homogeneous all 5-car fleet being preferred and the chosen option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==


My calculations agree with that.

You either have 22 all 5-car and three intermediates spare or 19 5-car and 3 6-car and no spare vehicles.

Yes, of course Lumo is taking 5 sets of 6 cars

Thank you, it makes sense to keep three spare vehicles, perhaps not even refurbish all of the spares, because disassembly gives bigger stock of spare parts, bogies, engines, electronic components etc

 

[Fife coaster]

Hi wondering if anyone has any news if scotrail has agreed to lease the class 222 that are not being taken by lumo ? as its went all quiet

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, of course Lumo is taking 5 sets of 6 cars

Thank you, it makes sense to keep three spare vehicles, perhaps not even refurbish all of the spares, because disassembly gives bigger stock of spare parts, bogies, engines, electronic components etc

I would keep the three spares, as having just three longer units seems a bit pointless - you couldn't really diagram so few to cover the perceived heaviest loading diagrams/workings reliably.

Certainly they haven't managed to to that with the HST 4-car vs 5-car, despite there being a much greater proportion of the longer sets.

The question then remains over interior layout, what will be kept and what will be changed. Assuming the refurbishment is actually that and not more a refresh with ScotRail seat fabrics and carpets but nothing else changed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question then remains over interior layout, what will be kept and what will be changed. Assuming the refurbishment is actually that and not more a refresh with ScotRail seat fabrics and carpets but nothing else changed.

EMR have just given them a light refresh of carpets and generic black seat coverings have they not?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2026 ==

Hi wondering if anyone has any news if scotrail has agreed to lease the class 222 that are not being taken by lumo ? as its went all quiet

I don't think so, but it seems a foregone conclusion on the grounds of nothing else suitable being available. The only other option, the Mk5a stock, has been taken by Chiltern.

 

[BorderCollie]

Hi wondering if anyone has any news if scotrail has agreed to lease the class 222 that are not being taken by lumo ? as its went all quiet

Post #122 is the most up to date info I've found.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi wondering if anyone has any news if scotrail has agreed to lease the class 222 that are not being taken by lumo ? as its went all quiet

Nothing has been signed, but there is the strongest chance yet that a lease will be signed, apparently in March.

Not 100% certain of course, but probably the more likely now than previously.

The Carmont inquiry has also likely provided a greater impetus towards phasing out the HSTs sooner than later as well.

 

[InTheEastMids]

EMR have just given them a light refresh of carpets and generic black seat coverings have they not?

Not the carpets, just the standard class seat covers, plus knackered cushions. The carpets are grim.

The only other option, the Mk5a stock, has been taken by Chiltern.

And there weren't enough of them - the Scotrail requirement was 19 diagrams.
Realistically I assume Scotrail did market sounding, realised the 222s were the best and probably only suitable option, so 19 requirement in the tender was based on what could be expected from the 22 Cl222s that were available once Lumo had bagged their stock. 222 availability/reliability has really wobbled recently but - surprise, surprise - 19 is the number of EMR's 22 units that are working today.

 

[Killingworth]

Lumo ordered new trains from Hitachi with delivery previously suggested to be by 2028. See Modern Railways 6th December 2024; https://www.modernrailways.com/article/firstgroup-orders-14-new-trains-hitachi-ps500-million-deal

FirstGroup has ordered 14 five-car Hitachi Class 80x trains for its growing open access operations.

The trains will be a mixture of electric, battery electric and bi-mode trains. Hitachi will construct the fleet at its Newton Aycliffe factory in County Durham with the first trains expected to be delivered in late-2027.

They will be used on the new London Paddington to Carmarthen route as well as increasing existing Lumo and Hull Trains services.

There is also an option for a further 13 five-car trains which will be ordered should the Office of Rail and Road approve applications for Lumo to run trains between London Euston and Rochdale, London Paddington and Paignton and extending the London King’s Cross to Edinburgh Waverley service to Glasgow Central.

Delivery of the new trains is expected to commence in late 2027. The lease will be financed by Angel Trains, adding to their portfolio of Hitachi assets. The trains will be maintained by Hitachi at their facilities around the country.

FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer Graham Sutherland said: ‘The introduction of our new service between London and Carmarthen, and the extra capacity on Lumo and Hull Trains, will significantly increase our open access portfolio over the next few years, with further expansion possible should our recent applications be successful. The new trains, to be manufactured for us in County Durham by Hitachi, will support UK manufacturing and offer customers more choice as they consider affordable, environmentally friendly modes of travel in the future, and we are pleased to be taking them forward.’

Jim Brewin, Chief Director of UK & Ireland at Hitachi Rail, stated: ‘this contract is a positive step forward, and just recognition for the hard work and patience of our teams across the Hitachi Rail UK business over recent years. We look forward to once again delivering for Hull Trains and Lumo passengers who will benefit further from our award-winning British built trains.’

Malcolm Brown, CEO of Angel Trains, said: ‘This is a major milestone for the UK rail industry. ‘This is the first announcement of its kind in six years but our ambitions don’t stop here - this milestone represents the beginning of a new and exciting journey, which will see Angel Trains play a leading role in the green transition of our rail infrastructure.’

Currently, Hull Trains operates five Class 802/3 bi-modes built by Hitachi while Lumo’s Golden Spanner-winning Class 803 EMU fleet was also built by the Japanese firm.

Who knows, they could be deployed on their Stirling route to allow release of 222s as spares for Scotrail when they find they have to keep them longer than expected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think if they are successful at ScotRail there's a very good chance of them taking the other sets once Lumo is done with them, a cascade could allow the replacement of a few of the worst 156s.

 

[Snow1964]

I think if they are successful at ScotRail there's a very good chance of them taking the other sets once Lumo is done with them, a cascade could allow the replacement of a few of the worst 156s.

We know from the Alstom press release that £10m is for refurb at Widnes, and another £40m for maintenance for 5 years.

Alstom secures £50 million contract to enhance and service Class 222 trains for Lumo in the UK

Refresh and maintenance work by Alstom will support FirstGroup’s new intercity service between central and southern Scotland and London Contract supports 50 roles across Alstom sites in Cheshire and Staffordshire

www.alstom.com

The Eversholt news article didn't give a lease period end month, but mentions expect to be in service mid 2026

Eversholt Rail to lease trains for new First Group London to Stirling open access service

A Member of Eversholt UK Rails Group

eversholtrail.co.uk

So if you combine these, 5 years maintenance from mid 2026 is through to mid 2031.

We also know First ordered new trains in December 2024, for delivery from 2028, so that suggests to me they intend to reallocate the 222s from Stirling to one of their proposed other start ups (Hereford etc) as interim fleet until any options under Hitachi order can be delivered (if the ORR accepts applications and options get exercised).

So if Scotrail thinks it might get more 222s this side of mid 2031, then it might be in dream land.

 

[Highlander1]

That was my thinking too, would be around 23 years old at refurb, and would expect nearer 11-15 years extra (so my gut feeling is would be aiming to keep them until nearer 2038-41)

To specify a refurb properly, need to know expected lifespan, because it affects the quality (how hard wearing) of the materials and finishes used.

What we don't yet know is the Scottish configuration, if they will keep a mix of 4 and 5 car units, or if they say keep couple of end cars for spare parts and lengthen couple of other units etc. If try and use every vehicle then got to be confident not going to have a spare parts supply problem through 2030s (which is very risky when 30+ year old parts are long obsolete).

We do know the exact lifespan. It's in the tender. It's 2035 with an option until 2040.

 

[43102EMR]

Lumo ordered new trains from Hitachi with delivery previously suggested to be by 2028. See Modern Railways 6th December 2024; https://www.modernrailways.com/article/firstgroup-orders-14-new-trains-hitachi-ps500-million-deal


Who knows, they could be deployed on their Stirling route to allow release of 222s as spares for Scotrail when they find they have to keep them longer than expected.

The new trains are for Hull Trains, Lumo’s existing ECML operations and its soon to be launched GWML operations. Overhead power constraints on the WCML as well have resulted in the 222s entering service with Lumo, so I wouldn’t expect the new Hitachis to even touch the WCML operations anytime soon.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The new trains are for Hull Trains, Lumo’s existing ECML operations and its soon to be launched GWML operations. Overhead power constraints on the WCML as well have resulted in the 222s entering service with Lumo, so I wouldn’t expect the new Hitachis to even touch the WCML operations anytime soon.

As far as I'm aware the main power issue is lack of long term plan paths due to freight services having the right to use electricity, but often not.
In that case, surely they could receive bi-modes that can run on diesel (like TPE do from Newcastle to Edinburgh sometimes) through the low power areas if the freights do run.

 

[Snow1964]

The new trains are for Hull Trains, Lumo’s existing ECML operations and its soon to be launched GWML operations. Overhead power constraints on the WCML as well have resulted in the 222s entering service with Lumo, so I wouldn’t expect the new Hitachis to even touch the WCML operations anytime soon.

By the time the new Hitachi trains enter service, 2028-29 ? won't most of the weaker power sections on WCML have been upgraded

 

[37069]

The Scotsman reporting that Class 222s are soon to be announced as heading to ScotRail: https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...lar-trains-expected-soon-for-scotrail-5612926

"Meantime, ministers are expected to announce shortly that Scottish Government-owned ScotRail will also run refurbished class 222 trains on its Edinburgh and Glasgow to Aberdeen and Inverness routes to replace its ageing diesel Inter7City “High Speed Trains” (HSTs), which are approaching 50 years old... Transport Scotland told The Scotsman last month that the second-hand fleet was expected to start entering service in the middle of next year following refurbishment, with all the trains running by mid 2028. The Scottish Government agency is expected to agree a contract by next month."

 

[jw]

The Scotsman reporting that Class 222s are soon to be announced as heading to ScotRail: https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...lar-trains-expected-soon-for-scotrail-5612926

"Meantime, ministers are expected to announce shortly that Scottish Government-owned ScotRail will also run refurbished class 222 trains on its Edinburgh and Glasgow to Aberdeen and Inverness routes to replace its ageing diesel Inter7City “High Speed Trains” (HSTs), which are approaching 50 years old... Transport Scotland told The Scotsman last month that the second-hand fleet was expected to start entering service in the middle of next year following refurbishment, with all the trains running by mid 2028. The Scottish Government agency is expected to agree a contract by next month."

The same article showing a visualisation of Lumo's Class 222 interior refresh. Existing standard class seats remain in grey, but First Class removed. The replacement standard class seats in the former FC areas look very similar to the new seating in CrossCountry's refurbished Voyager.

 

[InvHst]

The Scotsman reporting that Class 222s are soon to be announced as heading to ScotRail: https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...lar-trains-expected-soon-for-scotrail-5612926

"Meantime, ministers are expected to announce shortly that Scottish Government-owned ScotRail will also run refurbished class 222 trains on its Edinburgh and Glasgow to Aberdeen and Inverness routes to replace its ageing diesel Inter7City “High Speed Trains” (HSTs), which are approaching 50 years old... Transport Scotland told The Scotsman last month that the second-hand fleet was expected to start entering service in the middle of next year following refurbishment, with all the trains running by mid 2028. The Scottish Government agency is expected to agree a contract by next month."

Don't believe everything the Scotsman says btw..... Could very well happen but they speculate a lot

 

[Amos390]

Don't believe everything the Scotsman says btw..... Could very well happen but they speculate a lot

Well it backs up with once upon a time me and a couple mates went to Notts for something, when we talked to a 222 driver about the future of the stock who said it looks like the units were going 'To a private operator who havent revealed their name yet' and then scotrail, which checks out so far with that private operator being Lumo as we now know

 

[Bald Rick]

Well it backs up with once upon a time me and a couple mates went to Notts for something, when we talked to a 222 driver about the future of the stock who said it looks like the units were going 'To a private operator who havent revealed their name yet' and then scotrail, which checks out so far with that private operator being Lumo as we now know

That driver was probably reading it on here. There’s not that many drivers who are privy to the commercial deals being done with leasing companies!

 

[Amos390]

That driver was probably reading it on here. There’s not that many drivers who are privy to the commercial deals being done with leasing companies!

This was months ago, before any announcements about Lumo or any other operators, this was the time where CrossCountry were still having their rumours…

 

[Bald Rick]

This was months ago, before any announcements about Lumo or any other operators, this was the time where CrossCountry were still having their rumours…

Grand Union Trains (subsequently bought by First Group and placed under the Lumo brand) first applied to run the Stirling services with Class 222s in 2023. That application was in the public domain.