Has revenue protection gone too far?

[ChilliSauce]

This would be fine, if said RPIs were transparent about the arrangement, that ticket gates are rejecting tickets with railcards. Something to the effect of. “passengers with railcards, use these gates, passengers without railcards, use the other gates”. Instead of passengers going to a gate with no RPI, getting their perfectly valid ticket rejected, and having to go to an RPI.

I suggest the solution is the online ticketing apps need adapting so they will not sell a Railcard discounted ticket unless there is a link to the actual card to validate / check that: 1. It actually exists and; 2 It is in date.

 

[mmh]

I suggest the solution is the online ticketing apps need adapting so they will not sell a Railcard discounted ticket unless there is a link to the actual card to validate / check that: 1. It actually exists and; 2 It is in date.

Hmm. I have 2 (physical rather than online) railcards, and I've bought tickets in the past with a railcard discount without having a railcard - I wanted to buy advance tickets, and didn't need a railcard I wasn't going to use before the date of travel.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think a link to a railcard is really enough, because it doesn't prevent someone using a railcard ticket without being in possession of a railcard.

 

[Starmill]

though at least you can now get between the Avanti-staffed one and the TPE-staffed one, which you previously couldn't if I recall

They removed the fence next to platform 4 when the TPE gates were installed.

What that needs is to allow guards to unit-hop again. Not every TOC bans this and there is no reason to ban it, the argument about a unit being unstaffed is spurious as that happens on DOO TOCs all the time.

It's actually quite an unusual restriction to have yes.

Given that they're used for short DMUs and EMUs, I see no reason to lose them, but you could shorten them. I'm not sure to what extent you actually need to, though, a gateline just taking up the same space as the manual checks would be more efficient than the manual checks.

They can only take up to a four car 331 as is. If you shortened them they would then be restricted to even less than that.

 

[MKB]

I agree with this. We need more RPIs on trains, and less ticket checking at stations, which creates long, unnecessary queues.

It's a pity the railways aren't focused on giving the passnger a pleasant experience.

I am happy to have my ticket checked at either end of my journey, provided I am not held up unduly, but one of the benefits of using the train rather than driving should be that, when needed, I can catch up on my sleep with a nap.

I used to be able to leave my ticket on the table, but it's too risky to leave a phone there while snoozing. I really just want to settle into my seat, relax, and not be disturbed if I drop off. Is that really too much to expect?

 

[CEB24]

It's a pity the railways aren't focused on giving the passnger a pleasant experience.

I am happy to have my ticket checked at either end of my journey, provided I am not held up unduly, but one of the benefits of using the train rather than driving should be that, when needed, I can catch up on my sleep with a nap.

I used to be able to leave my ticket on the table, but it's too risky to leave a phone there while snoozing. I really just want to settle into my seat, relax, and not be disturbed if I drop off. Is that really too much to expect?

This is a really good point, in an ideal world the passenger can select their type of ticket they want depending on what they plan to do during the journey. Want to sleep? CCST to leave on the table. Listening to music or watching a video? QR code is fine. Hopefully everything gets simplified under GBR.

 

[Kite159]

They removed the fence next to platform 4 when the TPE gates were installed.

Leaving to a couple of cases where the barriers operated by one company are in operation but the barriers operated by another company were wide open, so easy for someone to enter/exit without a ticket by using the open barriers and walking to the platform they want.

In an ideal world, Manchester Piccadilly would get barriers installed for the remaining platforms and it being run by one company. Similar to Liverpool Lime Street, how much revenue must get lost by only having barriers at half the station (although when I was there last week, revenue were certainly busy when a pair of 150s rolled in on the stopper from Oxford Road)

 

[CarrotPie]

This is a really good point, in an ideal world the passenger can select their type of ticket they want depending on what they plan to do during the journey. Want to sleep? CCST to leave on the table. Listening to music or watching a video? QR code is fine. Hopefully everything gets simplified under GBR.

Finland has the digital solution to leaving your CCST on the table! On long-distance trains (the only ones with conductors and therefore the only ones where you're likely to get your ticket checked), if you buy your ticket on the app (like 97% do), you can "activate" it when you board (undiscounted adults/children only). Then, if there's the correct size of person in your reserved seat (they can see what seats are reserved), or you cabin door is shut, the conductor will just go "eh, seems legit" and keep walking. You don't have to interact with a single person; it's great!

We have no ticket barriers in the entire country, but the conductors walk through every hour or so and shout the names of the stations that the train has passed through recently, and then inspect any unactivated tickets from those places. AFAIK fare evasion on long-distance trains is virtually nil, and everyone can enjoy a peaceful ride/nap/sleep/Netflix session without having to be asked for your ticket.

 

[Fokx]

In an ideal world, Manchester Piccadilly would get barriers installed for the remaining platforms and it being run by one company. Similar to Liverpool Lime Street, how much revenue must get lost by only having barriers at half the station (although when I was there last week, revenue were certainly busy when a pair of 150s rolled in on the stopper from Oxford Road)

Further gate lines at both Lime Street and Manchester Piccadilly are currently being investigated by Network Rail and local TOC'S.

 

[The exile]

There are the technical issues of course but the human factor of finding it a higher priority to update their Facebook status or finish their phone call or view the latest TokTik video before deciding to open their ticket on their phone is sadly another issue!

Indeed - and one of those things that often seems to get ignored by people involved in the design and procurement of “technical wizardry”.

 

[dk1]

London Liverpool Street has over the last year or so had all its retail units removed along the barrier line to install additional ticket gates.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I am all for as much revenue protection as possible. Showing my ticket/pass two, three or more times in a single journey onboard and then again at stations gives me enormous satisfaction. Was only commenting last week on how pleasing it was to get so many ticket checks using Southern which was unexpected.

As a younger man I’d rather not have my ticket checked too many times. It only takes one slightly aresy inspector for things to get slippery fast. I’d rather have better machines

 

[Russel]

As a younger man I’d rather not have my ticket checked too many times. It only takes one slightly aresy inspector for things to get slippery fast. I’d rather have better machines

I don't really have an issue with multiple ticket checks, my grip is the lack of consistency, one check can be a cursory glance and then that could be followed by guilty until proven innocent style inspection.

Same goes for Railcards, I was asked for mine last week for the first time in a long time and it took me a while to find where in the Trip.com app it actually was, by which point the guard had lost interest and told me not to worry about it!

 

[Bishops]

Checking at stations is a must. its the first and last chance to ensure people have a ticket and mainly the right one - and you only have to watch the programmes on telly to see how they can build a caser against someone.

Granted its not foolproof but it does the job

 

[dk1]

As a younger man I’d rather not have my ticket checked too many times. It only takes one slightly aresy inspector for things to get slippery fast. I’d rather have better machines

Slightly off topic but the new bus inspectors stood in the doorway today as everyone tried to alight the #25 in Norwich city centre. I was expecting maybe a “what’s that” when showing my PlusBus but he said “that’s not valid mate” when I asked why not he said “well firstly the date is January 5th and secondly it’s for Blackpool” I had covered up the wrong one when sorting my ticket wallet out onboard

 

[Kite159]

Checking at stations is a must. its the first and last chance to ensure people have a ticket and mainly the right one - and you only have to watch the programmes on telly to see how they can build a caser against someone.

Granted its not foolproof but it does the job

The gateline at Birmingham New Street will quite happily open if someone presents a ticket to/from Duddeston, that won't stop that person boarding a service heading in completely the wrong direction. Other stations are available.

 

[HSTEd]

Analysis of ODM data would suggest that a rather large fraction of rail journeys occur between a comparatively small number of stations.

Gatelines at those stations alone could form the core of a effective revenue control system, but unfortunately we don't really have a reliable way of validating that a ticket was in fact used to travel from a given station, avoiding people just buying two short fares for the ends of a journey.

If we had smart card tickets we could easily validate this, but unfortunately we are stuck with the Aztec code solutino now.

 

[amahy]

I don't really have an issue with multiple ticket checks, my grip is the lack of consistency, one check can be a cursory glance and then that could be followed by guilty until proven innocent style inspection.

Same goes for Railcards, I was asked for mine last week for the first time in a long time and it took me a while to find where in the Trip.com app it actually was, by which point the guard had lost interest and told me not to worry about it!

Agreed. The way the UK rail revenue protection system currently works, I've been on 10 minute journeys with 3 ticket checks (barriers at start and end stations, and an on board inspection), and journeys of several hours with no ticket checks at all. The same can be said about penalty fares.

 

[Russel]

Agreed. The way the UK rail revenue protection system currently works, I've been on 10 minute journeys with 3 ticket checks (barriers at start and end stations, and an on board inspection), and journeys of several hours with no ticket checks at all. The same can be said about penalty fares.

Indeed, given the inconsistent lacklustre approach to revenue protection in many areas, although I don't condone it, I can see why people do fare evade.

 

[Bishops]

The gateline at Birmingham New Street will quite happily open if someone presents a ticket to/from Duddeston, that won't stop that person boarding a service heading in completely the wrong direction. Other stations are available.

Well quite, there's a situation for everything including people buying child rate tickets and so on and so forth however notice i said at the start and end of their journey and obviously no one is going to have a manual barrier at Denham golf club however at least they would've entered with a ticket of sorts - better for some sort of revenue than none at all

 

[Kite159]

I suspect there are a few who will only buy a ticket when travelling between two unbarriered stations if they see the guard checking tickets and getting close to them. Knowing that most guards won't mention anything when the "purchase after departure" message pops up.

 

[Bishops]

indeed theres many other things tooo but a good solid physical gateline be that the flay gates or staffed by humans cant be beat ( even better if you get a check on board too )

 

[HSTEd]

I went to the ODM (Origin Destination Matrix) data and other ORR data in an attempt to get a handle on the revenue protection problem:

There are currently 347 stations with ticket gates, according to the ORR.

The ODM suggests that 26.64% of all rail journeys are between these stations - they are gated at both ends.
A further 23.81% of journeys come from non gated stations and end at gated stations.

So, if we employed smartcard tickets with standalone validators at all non barriered stations, we could fully confirm roughly half journeys with a barrier ticket check using only existing barriers. No validation, no valid ticket.

If we added barriers to 145 additional stations the fractions rise/fall to 65.26% and 14.7% respectively. (EDIT: Note that the ODM data is not perfectly symmetrical between pairs of stations)

EDIT:

Turns out the ORR Ticket gate data was from 2019, so it considers Crossrail to be non barriered.

However, they get barriered the second my programme starts running, so the +145 -> 492 stations for 65.26/14.7% figure is still accurate.

EDIT: Manually added some Crossrail core stations in as barriered, now 33.15/24.29%

 

[Krokodil]

Agreed. The way the UK rail revenue protection system currently works, I've been on 10 minute journeys with 3 ticket checks (barriers at start and end stations, and an on board inspection), and journeys of several hours with no ticket checks at all. The same can be said about penalty fares.

In my experience the 10 minute journeys are more likely to have chancers than the several hours one.

 

[Russel]

I suspect there are a few who will only buy a ticket when travelling between two unbarriered stations if they see the guard checking tickets and getting close to them. Knowing that most guards won't mention anything when the "purchase after departure" message pops up.

I didn't realize that message popped up.

On Saturday I travelled from Lichfield to Stockport via Stafford, I had advance tickets from Stafford to Stockport and planned to just buy an off peak retorn for the Lichfield to Stafford part, I was running late and completely forgot I needed to buy the off peak ticket so brought it via an app when I realized, after boarding, the guard did scan it but never mentioned anything.

 

[Sonic1234]

In my experience the 10 minute journeys are more likely to have chancers than the several hours one.

And that's where you start getting into the economic argument - how much enforcement is justified for a £5 off peak day return or a £2 Oyster fare. Most of the chancers would qualify for a railcard too, if they paid.

 

[DarloRich]

Has revenue protection gone too far?​

No.

 

[dk1]

Has revenue protection gone too far?​

No.

Agreed. It can never go far enough.

 

[amahy]

Agreed. It can never go far enough.

Fine. In that case, there should be ticket checks every 5 minutes, 20 RPIs on every train, 5 layers of ticket barriers at every station, etc.

There do need to be some limits, or it gets unneccesarily disruptive, with long queues for passengers who have never fare dodged in their life.

Something I have not yet brought up, is when RPIs and guards decide to be militant about ticket checks on rammed full services, in times of major disruption, when everyone is eligible for full delay repay anyway. If anything, they should be going through the train refunding everyone, not insisting people pay for an appalling service!

 

[Pegpilot]

Just two points. A generation ago I provided the Secretariat service to a UITP working committee on Metro Financial and Commercial affairs. Its members were typically Finance Directors of some big urban transport operators around the world and fare evasion was a regular topic. I remember one enlightened presenter rationalising that if he spent nothing on revenue protection then he would reap no income (over simplifying, I know). But if he spent 100 Million Euros a year then the cost of revenue protection would exceed the revenue secured, so between the two must lie a sweet spot where net revenue is optimised - finding that spot was the trick and remains so.

My second point is that a generation ago we would have killed for the management information that modern revenue systems can yield. The targeted hits based on trip and sales data of known individuals is quite something to behold when I watch it on the box and going after the big fish must make sense.

Oh, go on then, one more. As a "suit" I got roped into a few revenue days on the tube when we left our ivory towers and supplemented the station staff on the barriers from time to time and I was left with undying sympathy and admiration for them and the daily cr*p they endured.