Future of Services in Tyne & Wear

[DarloRich]

Leading on from this thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49161

and a discussion with some fellow exiled north easterners in the pub over a few pints

I have been thinking about what a Newcastle metro/tram/rail network would look like in a future world with plenty of cash! I lived in Newcastle for 4 years ( St James Street ( next to Sid James Park, Fenham, Heaton) and the north east until last year and love the north east and the metro in newcastle is superb BUT Nexus need to serve more people and cant, easily, extend the metro westwards from St James. I would propose something like this:

A) Rail

1) Blyth and Tyne Route – Reopened, obviously , however, how do you do hat and what sort of service do you run? Metro or Northern? With a heavy rail service I would propose a cross Newcastle service from Metro Centre to Morpeth. The route would be circular; however there are two potential circuits, either via Morpeth or Via Pegswood. This way would involve quite a bit of work and running through what is left at Butterwell ( is the track even still there?) but running to Morpeth might mean, that unless you reverse, missing out Ashington! Therefore I would suggest stations at Newsham ( for Blyth) Bedlington and Ashington. In an ideal world I would like the service to travel via Butterwell and run back down the ECML via Pegswood, Morpeth and stations back to the Metro Centre. (I know there are no paths or stock but would one train every two hours (more at peak times work?) If you used the line as a metro route I would simply try and extend from Northumberland Park with stations at Seghill/Seaton Delaval, Newsham ( how do you get closer to Bylth? – Is the Bates branch still there?) Bedlington and Ashington.

2) Leamside Line – Reopened , obviously , I would re fettle the whole route for heavy rail services, but only as a freight / diversion route. I would like to have a metro service run on the northern part. I have seen a suggestion that the existing line be extended form South Hylton to Fencehouses with stations at Penshaw, Shiney Row and Fencehouses. This seems pretty silly as it misses out Washington. I would therefore suggest extending from Pelaw, along the existing line, with stations to serve Stephenson Industrial Estate/Nissan, a station further south to serve Washington, Penshaw, Shiney Row and Fencehouses.

3) Tyne Dock – East Bolden. A short metro line with a station somewhere between the two to serve Whiteleas which would allow trains from South Shields to serve Sunderland directly. Perhaps the only one which has a chance of success in the real world.

4) Station at Birtley and also at Gateshead - if only to open up some extra journey opportunities form the south end of Gateshead. Wont happen anytime soon!


B) TRAM

1) Centre the system on Monument.

2) Leg to Central Station, Quayside, Gateshead Quays, Gateshead Interchange

3) A leg along the river through Walker to Wallsend

4) Leg North Eastwards via Haymarket, Newcastle University, Sandyford, Heaton, High Heaton, Freeman Hospital South Gosforth, Gosforth, Regent Centre

5) Leg via Sid James to Fenham, Westgate Road , General Hospital , West Road two Ball Lonnen, Cowgate/Blakelaw

6) Leg via Y shaped junction at Central station to Newcastle College, Elswick, Benwell, Scotswood, Metro Centre

I would also like to find a way to serve, say, Dunston, Whickham and South Gateshead but cant other than extending south from Gateshead centre

I wonder if any members have any thoughts, but please note I realise these are purely aspirational and perhaps only one option has a chance of ever being built!

 

[142094]

This is going to take a while!

Depends on which situation we have - either bags of money or a more realistic business case.

1) Blyth and Tyne Route

This should be the priority for Northumberland County Council compared to building a new station at Belford. I was on the Ashington Future a few years ago and this proved that passenger trains can run on the line. Very large target market in SE Northumberland, most of who use the bus to get into Newcastle. New stations could be easily built if the investment was found.

Extending the Northern Morpeth service to Bedlington was found to require no further stock or staff. Extra would be needed for Ashington and Blyth. Ideally it would all be a part of a circular route from Central to Morpeth, then on to Blyth, Ashington etc and back to Newcastle via Seghill and Northumberland Park. Northumberland Park would serve as a dual station much in the same way as Sunderland.

2) Leamside Line

Reopening this would take a huge amount of cars off the road coming into Newcastle each weekday morning. If this was Wales or Scotland, the line would have been reopened ages ago. If you do look at some of the reopenings in Wales, the new stations serve small towns and villages. Washington is a large town, and a perfect market for the railway to be exploiting. Easy access from the A1 and A19 = good scope for a park and ride station.

Tyne Dock – East Bolden

This is probably the most realistic extension to the Metro. However I expect new stock would be needed to provide for this route, unless you were to have a shuttle service between Tyne Dock and Brockley Whins (say 2x one car Metrocars running on this bit only).

Station at Birtley and also at Gateshead

I'd add a station at Bensham too, possibly using the spur from ECML to Tyne Valley line and the short section that has been lifted going from the parcel depot back onto the Tyne Valley line going into Newcastle. Would be served by a Newcastle - Washington - Darlo - Newcastle circular trip.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is going to take a while!

Depends on which situation we have - either bags of money or a more realistic business case.

Unless we introduce a Trust Fund in which every Newcastle resident without a family automatically bequeaths all their Estate to a new Local Transport Development fund and increase parking costs even more!
(Eh? What do you mean that no Geordie has any money?)

5) Leg via Sid James to Fenham, Westgate Road , General Hospital , West Road two Ball Lonnen, Cowgate/Blakelaw

I attended some meetings in the heady days of optomism (Geez, it was only 10 years ago) where the plans to extend Metro into the West End were far advanced and several options were being appriased. The route was south of Westgate Road, generally aligned with Elswick Road, Adelaide Terrace and rather less defined after that. The tunnel boring machine was/is still in the tunnel at St.James, and trams would turn at bends through properties whose Compulsory Purchase was already costed.

I'd add a station at Bensham too . . . .

There's an EC Guard who'd agree with you. He regularly announces all stopping points along the Route. And Bensham!

It is a significant feature of the region that there is no rail connections (in any direction) to/from Blyth, Ashington, Washington and the Team Valley. Not all of these require the massively expensive tunnelling that the Western extension of Metro would necessitate, and of course some of those interventions would have a national impact (relieving the ECML from freight and providing diversionary routes etc.) as well as providing regional benefits.

 

[alexdodds]

Station at Birtley and also at Gateshead

Not relay any need for stations at them 2 places. Go North East and Arriva North East provide a very frequent bus service to Gateshead and Newcastle from Birtley and then there is of course Gateshead Interchange providing loads of Bus and Metro services to Tyne and Wear.

A station at Birtley would now a days slow down the fast trains and extend journey times a little bit. Look at why Chester-le-Street had our Northern services replaced by transpennines and voyagers. It was because the pacers were slowing the fast trains down.

Even if I was living in Birtley I would still travel by bus because if there was a station built again, it would probably have a 2 hour frequency compared to the buses which run every few minutes and they are cheaper.

 

[142094]

It was because the pacers were slowing the fast trains down.

Don't think that is entirely true seeing as there are only 3-4 workings per day between Chester-le-Street and Newcastle run by Northern (yes normally 142s). This has been the case for a good few years now.

Station at Birtley could act as a park and ride station, and even if it does have good bus links the railway might as well exploit this market. Not everyone will want to spend half an hour on a bus to get to Newcastle when a train would take 10 minutes, if that.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I wouldn't have trams duplicating Metro lines (except for operational reasons). I'd rather they branched off the metro network like NEXUS were proposing some time ago

 

[DarloRich]

I wouldn't have trams duplicating Metro lines (except for operational reasons). I'd rather they branched off the metro network like NEXUS were proposing some time ago

I am not trying to duplicate the metro routes. I have used broad area names to try and suggest areas through which trams could run to try and serve areas either a fair distance form a metro station or not served by the metro at all. Any metro stations mentioned are simply for interchange or terminus reasons.

IF you take Heaton as an example, the Metro station is at Chillingham Road which is to the south of the ECML. Any tram route would really have to follow the approximate line of the number 1 bus from the city centre to Chillingham Road, then run up toward coach lane campus, through High Heaton and the Freeman Hospital to terminate somewhere in Gosforth.

 

[dickdarlington]

You only have to look at Blaydon and Dunston stations to know that the Geordies aren't really mad keen on getting back on the trains for their commuting. Also, Newcastle really has a very spread our commuting pattern.

In an ideal world, I would go along this route. Use Blaydon as a bus hub (like Heworth for services into the centre. Same can be said as the Metro.

Have a tram line from Monument to Central Station, over the High Level into Gateshead and then run the Great North Road with stops key stops at Low Fell, Harlow Green, Birtley, Barley Mow and Chester Le Street. This would lead to the closure of Chester Le Street station. (A continuation to Durham would be ideal).

A third spur would go from Gateshead south to the QE Hospital and Wrekenton and onto Washington Central (a new Washington Metro station - I'll get to that) and then linking up at South Hylton.

I'd have the Metro along the Leamside with stops at Nissan, Washington, Penshaw, Shiny Row and Colliery Row for Houghton.

In Sunderland, a tram route would head out from the Station along the Durham Road and serving Doxford Park and New Silksworth.

The East Boldon spur of course would provide a service for St Shields and Sunderland.

North of the Tyne, there would be the Heavy Rail from Ashington, Bedlington, Blyth, Seaton, Northumberland Park, Palmersville, Heaton (depending on Main Line), Manors and Central.

East there would be a Tram from Haymarket out along the Coast Road to Whitley Bay (Route of the 306?) - although the 306 could be utilised with designated bus lanes west of Clerkenwell. But hey, this is a rail forum and we want tracks.

And then we have Newcastle West End. Tramtastic time...

Two key routes, West along the Westgate Road, with Key stops at the General, Benwell, Denton, Denton Burn, Newburn and Terminating at Throckley. At Denton Burn, there would be a spur North to West Denton, Westerhope, Newbiggin Hall, Before meeting the Metro at Kingston Park.

That would make Tyne and Wear the envy of many cities for transport links, and with a few clever park and rides, and an integrated transport service (with cheap tickets we'd hope) make travel on these new systems a pleasure.

Shame it'll never happen

 

[DarloRich]

I didnt think about Sunderland - i will have to go back to this tonight!

@ DD - If you were going to run to Doxford would you not just run your tram along the A690 and serve Houghton town centre and link up with your Metro Stop

Would you not terminate your metro line at Fencehouses rathern than Colliery Row? It seem to make a sensible end point as there is nt much after there ( If you reject talk of a Durham Parkway Station where the park and ride is at Carrville)

 

[tbtc]

Realistically I guess any expansion of Metro services has to wait until new stock is ordered - then there's a "once in a generation" chance to expand the network (like Merseyrail, when they replace the 507/508s, have the chance to order more for increased/expanded services).

So, in the shorter term, heavy rail may be the way forward. At the moment I can't see any improvement for the North East (in all the shuffling of 142/150s around England, none are destined up here?).

What is the capacity like at Newcastle?

AIUI there's up to four passenger trains through Manors each hour (one XC to Edinburgh/Glasgow, one Northern to Morpeth and up to two East Coast services to Edinburgh or beyond). That sounds like there's plenty capacity for additional services (e.g. Blyth/ Ashington), but there needs to be room for freight (not sure how much there is each hour, on average?).

Southbound, from Newcastle there's one train an hour on the Sunderland line (to Middlesbrough), up to four on the Metro Centre line (to Hexham/ Carlisle) and five an hour on the Durham line (two to London, two to Birmingham, one to Manchester Airport).

So, over the two bridges southbound you need to accomodate ten passenger trains an hour - again, sounds like there are going to be spare paths (albeit some may need to go over the High Level bridge instead of the King Edward).

(I'm not mentioning trams, as only Manchester seems to have any luck building tram lines these days)

 

[DarloRich]

If you opended up the Leamside to frieght you could take it entirely off the ECML between Northallerrton and Newcastle. That should open up some paths south.

With some flexible use of the bridges you should be able to fit things in. The big advantage at newcastle is that you can come and go in both directions.

However, any frieght form the north has to run through the station over the King Edward bridge, turn left at KEB junction, run through Gateshead and take the Sunderland line at Park Lane Junction. Now if we could get a curve from the north onto the High Level we might be in business. Does anyone know how to move a castle?

 

[dickdarlington]

I didnt think about Sunderland - i will have to go back to this tonight!

@ DD - If you were going to run to Doxford would you not just run your tram along the A690 and serve Houghton town centre and link up with your Metro Stop

Would you not terminate your metro line at Fencehouses rathern than Colliery Row? It seem to make a sensible end point as there is nt much after there ( If you reject talk of a Durham Parkway Station where the park and ride is at Carrville)

I hand't considered extending to Carrville. Good thinking that. Or dumb neglect by me.

I think a tram from Doxford to Houghton is out due to the very steep incline inbetween. And a tunnel would be astronomical in costs to build.

I must admit I don't know Sunderland that well. And have basically filled a gap between the two existing rail routes. I am sure that there are more to be considered.

The trouble with Tyneside is that all travel is in a horseshoe shape along the river. In a money no object world I would build a metro link over/under the Tyne near Shield/Jarrow to provide a vital link between the two banks. The Ferry doesn't cut it.

In regards to the pacers, I think we'll suffer with a poor service rather than get any more. LOL.

I do think Central has more capacity, although it may require doubling the curve on the Gateshead side of the high leveland remodelling the junction at the Redheugh bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does anyone know how to move a castle?

Do what they did at Fort Bill. Flatten it, and then landscape the foundations.

 

[DarloRich]

That night affect the name "newCASTLE" mind! (Newlandscaped site doesnt quite work LOL)

 

[gordonthemoron]

they could just rename it Toon

 

[142094]

You only have to look at Blaydon and Dunston stations to know that the Geordies aren't really mad keen on getting back on the trains for their commuting.

Mainly due to the p*ss-poor service that those two stations enjoy. Manors has had a huge increase in the number or services since May, so the usage figures will show whether this has been successful or not.

 

[DarloRich]

I hand't considered extending to Carrville. Good thinking that. Or dumb neglect by me.

I think a tram from Doxford to Houghton is out due to the very steep incline inbetween. And a tunnel would be astronomical in costs to build.

I must admit I don't know Sunderland that well. And have basically filled a gap between the two existing rail routes. I am sure that there are more to be considered.

The trouble with Tyneside is that all travel is in a horseshoe shape along the river. In a money no object world I would build a metro link over/under the Tyne near Shield/Jarrow to provide a vital link between the two banks. The Ferry doesn't cut it.

In regards to the pacers, I think we'll suffer with a poor service rather than get any more. LOL.

I do think Central has more capacity, although it may require doubling the curve on the Gateshead side of the high leveland remodelling the junction at the Redheugh bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do what they did at Fort Bill. Flatten it, and then landscape the foundations.

As For Doxford - Houghton - yes the hill is steep but we have the money so we can build it! ( it would be worse coming from Houghton to Doxford! ) Or if that hill is to steep, turn right were Reg Vardys is, run down to Newbottle and into Houghton that way.

God this public transport lark is easy.

Where else can i sort out!

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm about to embark on a fairly lengthy list of pretty ambitious aspirations that mirror what many others on the thread have already voiced, but quite frankly I'd be happy with much less ambitious schemes: I'd like to see the heavy rail frequency on the Durham Coast doubled to half hourly at least between Hartlepool and Newcastle/Metrocentre, and I'd like to see the twenty three 144s moved to Heaton to replace the 142s (If Yorkshire ever sees enough additional Sprinters to allow such a thing to happen) and allow the majority of Pacer operated services to be three or four carriage formations.

Ok, now on with the more fanciful stuff:

Blyth and Tyne: The easiest thing to do, which is a complete no-brainer, would be to extend the existing Metrocentre to Morpeth trains round to Bedlington, which as 142094 says wouldn't require any additional rolling stock due to the layover at Morpeth at present.

The next step would then be to extend this service further, logically to Ashington, the problem being that the existing junctions to access both the Ashington and Blyth branches are south facing and would require a reversal for trains approaching from Morpeth, which is an added "fiddly bit" to consider.

In an ideal world, the service could be operated as a full loop from Morpeth-Bedlington-Seaton Deleval-Northumberland Park-Benton-ECML-Newcastle, but if the existing service frequency was to be maintained between Newcastle and Morpeth this would effectively double the frequency, and hence the number of paths, needed on the ECML between Benton and Newcastle.

As such, I think the best solution would be the Metrocentre-Morpeth heavy rail service extended to Ashington with a reversal at Bedlington, and the Metro extended to Blyth from Northumberland Park, Via Seaton Deleval, over which a Pelaw to Blyth service could operate, increasing the frequency of services over the core section of the Metro system between South Gosforth and Pelaw. Of course this would only be possible when the Metro fleet is replaced by new stock.

Washington Metro extension: Even better, this Blyth-Pelaw service could be extended down the Leamside to a new terminus at Washington.

Sunderland Metro extension: I would like to see the route extended beyond South Hylton, to serve Penshaw, Shiney Row and Fencehouses, to terminate at a new "Belmont Parkway" station alongside the A690 and the current park and ride site.

Tyne Dock - Brockley Whins Metro extension: Given the exceptionally short distance between the Sunderland and South Shields arms of the Metro network at this location, conversion of the route to Metro use to allow a Sunderland to South Shields Metro service to operate seems like a sensible idea, and a service that I'd certainly use. However, I don't believe there would be any paths available between Brockley Whins and Sunderland for this additional service to operate without cutting the frequency of the Newcastle service, not to mention the fact that this is another scheme that would have to wait until the Metrocars are eventually replaced.

Light rail:
Newcastle: Running from Denton to serve Benwell and Elswick and pass in close proximity of the Metro Arena, before running up through Newcastle city centre to serve St. James, Monument and Haymarket. I haven't worked out the optimum route at the west end of this alignment: To serve the largest area of population, as well as the General Hospital, it would be best to run the service along Westgate Road, however I'm quite keen on providing a link for the Arena, which would require a pretty big deviation past Newcastle College in order to serve it.

In the city centre the route would pass Central Station, then run up Grainger Street to turn left onto Newgate Road to pas The Gate and then right to run along Blackett Street to Monument and then up to Haymarket. From there it would be along Jesmond Road to Heaton, then up Benton Road past Four Lane Ends to terminate somewhere in the traingle bounded by Forest Hall, Killingworth and the racecourse.

Sunderland: Running from the city centre (principally the south end around Park Lane and Borough Road), down Durham Road past the University to The Barnes, where it could surely make use of some of the old NCB alignment that used to run to Silksworth Colliery, past the ski slope and through Farringdon to terminate at Doxford Park.

Heavy rail stations: I'd quite like to see reopened stations on the Durham Coast at Ryhope and Horden, and on the ECML at Birtley and Low Fell/Bensham. With the Birtley station, there's scope for it to flank a pair of loops to allow faster trains to overtake stoppers due to the old junction site with the Consett line at Pelaw Grange.

 

[SteveP29]

Even if I was living in Birtley I would still travel by bus because if there was a station built again, it would probably have a 2 hour frequency compared to the buses which run every few minutes and they are cheaper.

I grew up in Birtley (no need for commiseration, I got out just in time!!) our rates (remember those!!) helped pay for the metro to be built, there should have been a line out to Birtley, running alongside the ECML (a perfect use for the 2 lines that they closed and lifted that ran from Pelaw Grange dog track to Tyne Yard, I don't know why they were lifted btw, anyone know why?).

Once Leverton at Barley Mow closed down, imagine the interchange/ park & ride that could have been built on that site, instead of the ridiculously huge Carcraft car supermarket (that seems to be dying a death judging by the lack of cars in the outside lot when I passed by on Saturday and Sunday)

Go North East could have kept bus fares to a minimum from Chester le Street to Barley Mow, which I'm sure would have attracted lots of people onto the Metro rather than sitting for 35-40 minutes on a bus all the way into Newcastle or getting stuck in traffic through Low Fell or on the Western Bypass.
A large car park would also enable others that don't live to the sides of the road through Birtley (mainly thinking about the Rickleton, Harraton & Lambton parts of Washington, Ouston, Stanley etc on the west side of the ECML)

If the majority of people used this interchange, then there'd be almost no need for the Western Western Bypass they keep proposing, as I'm sure the current road would be able to handle that load

 

[142094]

I haven't worked out the optimum route at the west end of this alignment:

For the town bit, the car park surround St James Metro station would be a decent option - fair bit of land to construct a decent tram terminal, which could then run south along St James's Boulevard past the College onto Scotswood Road. North it could go along Barrack Road and into the west end that way. Easy interchange between tram and Metro.

 

[DarloRich]

Unless we introduce a Trust Fund in which every Newcastle resident without a family automatically bequeaths all their Estate to a new Local Transport Development fund and increase parking costs even more!
(Eh? What do you mean that no Geordie has any money?)
I attended some meetings in the heady days of optomism (Geez, it was only 10 years ago) where the plans to extend Metro into the West End were far advanced and several options were being appriased. The route was south of Westgate Road, generally aligned with Elswick Road, Adelaide Terrace and rather less defined after that. The tunnel boring machine was/is still in the tunnel at St.James, and trams would turn at bends through properties whose Compulsory Purchase was already costed.There's an EC Guard who'd agree with you. He regularly announces all stopping points along the Route. And Bensham!

It is a significant feature of the region that there is no rail connections (in any direction) to/from Blyth, Ashington, Washington and the Team Valley. Not all of these require the massively expensive tunnelling that the Western extension of Metro would necessitate, and of course some of those interventions would have a national impact (relieving the ECML from freight and providing diversionary routes etc.) as well as providing regional benefits.

Were they going to put the metro tunnel west of Sid James? Would that not mean some very deep stations? There is a canny rise out of the city centre heading west. I thought the proposal was for street running of some sort.

 

[dickdarlington]

Additionally, would there be any worth in extending the Metro from the Airport back to Ponteland and Darras Hall? The big question is would the rich and wealthy dare to be seen on public transport?

Also. What were the original plans for the Metro West of the St James'? Was there a plan? Could it be extended to the Metro Centre? Or was it destined for West Denton?

 

[DarloRich]

Additionally, would there be any worth in extending the Metro from the Airport back to Ponteland and Darras Hall? The big question is would the rich and wealthy dare to be seen on public transport?

I doubt the good folk of Ponteland would dare to travel with the peasents -mind you it would only run through Gosforth & Jesmond so it MIGHT be ok! Nexus might have to put on a first class service like the Metropolitan Railway did towards Verny Junction!

Also. What were the original plans for the Metro West of the St James'? Was there a plan? Could it be extended to the Metro Centre? Or was it destined for West Denton?

Surely you would have to go to the metro centre to make it viable