Viscount Travel group to cease abruptly.!

[Pyewipecarshed]

Would the depot of use to another operator? (Didn't Pickering once have a garage during United Automobile years )
Whats happening to the vehicles ?
What vintage vehicles do they have ?

The United garage (passed to Scarborough and District (East Yorkshire) in 1986) still stands; it's the carpet shop next to the main bus stop in Westgate.
EY/S&D moved out in the very early 1990s and rented a corner of a yard (IIRC from Thornton Dale Coaches). They subsequently bought Thornton Dale and continued to use their premises on Outgang Lane until c.1997, when, as @TheGrandWazoo states, it closed.
I believe the Thornton Dale garage building is still there in industrial use, but the open yard adjacent has had houses built on it.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'm not certain about the relevance of an express? The fact that when comparing two corridors that head down a major A road, Thirsk to York is slightly further than Pickering to Scarborough. Thirsk is a similar if slightly larger town yet it can sustain an hourly service because the villages en route (even if they aren't all served on the same journey), and especially Easingwold, are large enough to sustain that broadly hourly frequency.

Yet there is no Sunday bus service between Thirsk and York. There is an hourly combined service between the 30 & 40 on Sundays connecting York and Easingwold. The point about express services was that Pickering and Scarborough no longer have an express service linking them, but until last week had an hourly one. York & Thirsk do not have an hourly express service but a bi-hourly one.

People don't generally travel for an hour to do their grocery shopping. Whilst Pickering doesn't have a hospital (though Malton has) nor the college, clearly demand is enough. The 28 simply doesn't have the base population that enables a commercial hourly service; now whether NYC want to spend some of their BSIP funds is the question.

Scarborough Hospital provides a wider range of services and 24 Hour emergency care, unlike Malton & Norton District. As I've said, Scarborough is a big centre locally and its Hospital reflects that.
Regarding shopping, it depends. To only do shopping, I agree that most people wouldn't travel an hour if there is a suitable option nearby (Pickering LIDL in this case) but Scarborough has Shopping Centres (Balmoral Centre being one) allowing people to combine their visit to the supermarket with a trip to other shops that Malton doesn't have whilst not having to travel all the way to York. Locally, Scarborough isn't only a seaside resort, but often the nearest place that offers some of the amenities that a city would.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yet there is no Sunday bus service between Thirsk and York. There is an hourly combined service between the 30 & 40 on Sundays connecting York and Easingwold. The point about express services was that Pickering and Scarborough no longer have an express service linking them, but until last week had an hourly one. York & Thirsk do not have an hourly express service but a bi-hourly one.

There is no Sunday service between Thirsk and York and if it wasn't for council funding, neither would Pickering.

I think we may have learned (and not surprisingly) is that there is limited trade on that route; indeed, until last week they had an express but not one that was evidently sustainable, and certainly not at this time of year. As was said before, we might argue that NYC could use some BSIP funds to beef that frequency up. Then again, there's a few routes that could do with some funding as, since 2010, the decline in the county's bus network has been stark.

Scarborough Hospital provides a wider range of services and 24 Hour emergency care, unlike Malton & Norton District. As I've said, Scarborough is a big centre locally and its Hospital reflects that.
Regarding shopping, it depends. To only do shopping, I agree that most people wouldn't travel an hour if there is a suitable option nearby (Pickering LIDL in this case) but Scarborough has Shopping Centres (Balmoral Centre being one) allowing people to combine their visit to the supermarket with a trip to other shops that Malton doesn't have whilst not having to travel all the way to York. Locally, Scarborough isn't only a seaside resort, but often the nearest place that offers some of the amenities that a city would.

Let's say we were to accept that Scarborough was some great retail draw (it isn't but hey ho) and that Scarborough hospital provides certain specialist services that the Malton Hospital doesn't...why isn't that reflected in patronage on the bus service?

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think we may have learned (and not surprisingly) is that there is limited trade on that route; indeed, until last week they had an express but not one that was evidently sustainable, and certainly not at this time of year

How do we know that the route is unsustainable though? Viscount ended due to family problems, not financial. The X28 hadn't been running long enough for us to see how it performed on Viscount's yearly finances. Arguably, the X28 had not been running long enough for it to be deemed unsustainable.

Let's say we were to accept that Scarborough was some great retail draw (it isn't but hey ho) and that Scarborough hospital provides certain specialist services that the Malton Hospital doesn't...why isn't that reflected in patronage on the bus service?

As I've said before, the 28 is not an unpopular service. Despite it taking an indirect route, the deckers are often two-thirds full and usually far from empty. Viscount took an opportunity to catch a complacent East Yorkshire off guard. The X3 and extra 128 journeys were overkill from the start, but that's not to say that an hourly express service is not possible or indeed popular.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How do we know that the route is unsustainable though? Viscount ended due to family problems, not financial. The X28 hadn't been running long enough for us to see how it performed on Viscount's yearly finances. Arguably, the X28 had not been running long enough for it to be deemed unsustainable.

East Yorkshire reduced it from hourly to two hourly a few years ago because it wasn't viable. Viscount then introduce an hourly service on top of that, and it was somehow viable... in my experience, that is best described as "unlikely".

I suspect that whilst there are family reasons, had they not intervened, you'd have seen the service fail anyway. Just do the maths!

As I've said before, the 28 is not an unpopular service. Despite it taking an indirect route, the deckers are often two-thirds full and usually far from empty. Viscount took an opportunity to catch a complacent East Yorkshire off guard. The X3 and extra 128 journeys were overkill from the start, but that's not to say that an hourly express service is not possible or indeed popular.

Selected journeys will be busy but many others will be pretty far from two thirds full. Given that many will be twirly pensioners during the day (for whom NYC pays a lousy sum), it's not the pot of gold you may think.

Do you recall the X54 from York to Harrogate? It was operated by Transdev, who then deregistered it before Connexxions had a try at it. Some of the journeys were popular (usually the mid morning run into York and an afternoon run out) but not all and as they were dominated by pensioners, they couldn't make it pay.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Just as a side note, Yorkshire Buses are using the white VDL single decker on the 61 today with Viscount names still on it, so for the time being the name lives on.

 

[BULLSAREMAGIC]

In a totally unemotional view regardless of unfortunate and unwanted health and family issues(and I do wish the family well and speedy recovery) the pickering to scarborough route is unlikely to support one operator let alone two on hourly frequency. As much as we as enthusiasts would like this to be the case the area has a very high car ownership, is a relatively wealthy area and why would we think this are would desert their car for a ride of over an hour in an elderly bus when it doesn't happen in better bus territory

 

[YorkRailFan]

East Yorkshire reduced it from hourly to two hourly a few years ago because it wasn't viable. Viscount then introduce an hourly service on top of that, and it was somehow viable... in my experience, that is best described as "unlikely".

I suspect that whilst there are family reasons, had they not intervened, you'd have seen the service fail anyway. Just do the maths!

Selected journeys will be busy but many others will be pretty far from two thirds full. Given that many will be twirly pensioners during the day (for whom NYC pays a lousy sum), it's not the pot of gold you may think.

Do you recall the X54 from York to Harrogate? It was operated by Transdev, who then deregistered it before Connexxions had a try at it. Some of the journeys were popular (usually the mid morning run into York and an afternoon run out) but not all and as they were dominated by pensioners, they couldn't make it pay.

The X54 had direct competition from the train, on top of car ownership. In my experience, a lot of Young people are using the 28, presumably trying to meet up with friends in Pickering or Scarborough, not just Old people, and not even selected journeys.

East Yorkshire reduced an indirect service from hourly to every two hours, not a direct service. An hourly 28 is probably not viable, but an hourly X28 is probably more viable as provides shorter journey times end to end.

Again, how do we know the X28 was financially unviable for Viscount when it was only running for 5 months, and stopped running before the end of the financial year. The truth is, we never know the true viability of the X28 because of the abrupt closure.

The X28 may well have failed, but I do think an hourly service is possible along the route. A company that has the financial means to operate it and show North Yorkshire Council that there is demand for it, whilst perhaps making a loss in the short term, could give Pickering and Scarborough an hourly link once again. Viscount was not that company, obviously, they were tiny compared to their competition. East Yorkshire could do that with an X3 (the X3, 128 and X28 altogether were never going to be viable) and in fact do similar things elsewhere. If you look at the recent launch of service 15 in York by East Yorkshire, they've taken a commercial risk and judging by the significant uplift the service is getting at the end of March, its paid off.

 

[NeilWatson]

Yes that's great, but it is the all day demand that matters and not just selected journeys.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The X54 had direct competition from the train, on top of car ownership. In my experience, a lot of Young people are using the 28, presumably trying to meet up with friends in Pickering or Scarborough, not just Old people, and not even selected journeys.

I mention the X54 to illustrate that just because a service has demand and a few busy journeys, that doesn't make it viable.

This is a service in a rural part of North Yorkshire.

East Yorkshire reduced an indirect service from hourly to every two hours, not a direct service. An hourly 28 is probably not viable, but an hourly X28 is probably more viable as provides shorter journey times end to end.

It's not as if it's a massively indirect service (55 mins) and the idea of an hourly X28 is viable is fanciful. There's two places en route (Pickering and Thornton Dale) comprising 10k inhabitants, because you're bypassing much of the rest. That is expecting a lot in an area where people are affluent and many of the passengers are pass holders.

Again, how do we know the X28 was financially unviable for Viscount when it was only running for 5 months, and stopped running before the end of the financial year. The truth is, we never know the true viability of the X28 because of the abrupt closure.

The X28 may well have failed, but I do think an hourly service is possible along the route. A company that has the financial means to operate it and show North Yorkshire Council that there is demand for it, whilst perhaps making a loss in the short term, could give Pickering and Scarborough an hourly link once again. Viscount was not that company, obviously, they were tiny compared to their competition. East Yorkshire could do that with an X3 (the X3, 128 and X28 altogether were never going to be viable) and in fact do similar things elsewhere. If you look at the recent launch of service 15 in York by East Yorkshire, they've taken a commercial risk and judging by the significant uplift the service is getting at the end of March, its paid off.

Another view may have been that EY knew that Viscount was in trouble and pulled it's competition spoiler routes off?

There's no evidence to suggest that an X28 express would be viable. That route hasn't been tried in 100 years until EY had a go (which also failed) and now Viscount. However, if you want to write to Northallerton and suggest they spend some money on it, go on.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's not as if it's a massively indirect service (55 mins) and the idea of an hourly X28 is viable is fanciful. There's two places en route (Pickering and Thornton Dale) comprising 10k inhabitants, because you're bypassing much of the rest. That is expecting a lot in an area where people are affluent and many of the passengers are pass holders.

Also passes through Seamer, picking people up on the way into Scarborough.

Another view may have been that EY knew that Viscount was in trouble and pulled it's competition spoiler routes off?

There's no evidence to suggest that an X28 express would be viable. That route hasn't been tried in 100 years until EY had a go (which also failed) and now Viscount. However, if you want to write to Northallerton and suggest they spend some money on it, go on.

EY was regularly using E200s on the X3 in January and February. As I've said, the 128, X3 and X28 were never all going to survive. Its also worth noting that Coastliner received BSIP funding to go every 20 minutes between York and Leeds in October 2024. I'm sure locals would argue that the BSIP funding would've been better spent on an hourly service between Pickering & Scarborough.

 

[richard13]

Interesting that the railway from Pickering to Scarborough (The Forge Valley line) closed in June 1950 as uneconomic.
The railway from Pickering to Malton closed in 1965 with the Beeching cuts.
The economic flow was back then to Malton and not Scarborough.

Although Scarborough has facilities, particularly by car, it is a dead end, where as Malton is a gateway to beyond as well as different local services.
Today the more frequent and shorter journey time by bus to Malton only enhances that historical preference.

 

[Delenn]

In my view, spending BSIP money on the 3 to Hutton Buscel is a complete waste of resources. Spend that money on X28s (Scarb to Pick) with EY to fill in the hourly gaps. Hutton Buscel.still has an hourly service.

Oh, and I understand that on the same day Viscount told the world they were stopping running services (with less than the legally required period of notice), they registered the Scarborough Seafront Service. On the same day!

 

[markymark2000]

Oh, and I understand that on the same day Viscount told the world they were stopping running services (with less than the legally required period of notice), they registered the Scarborough Seafront Service. On the same day!

According to OTC registration data which Bustimes kindly displays, the registration was received on 4th Feb.

PB2063409/1 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

Variation history​

1. • Received4 Feb 26
   • Effective28 Mar 26
   • 
     
   • To notify dates of operation & timetables for 2026 season

 

[YorkRailFan]

Regarding the hourly service East Yorkshire ran in 2021/2022, buses would run through to Kirkbymoorside every hour. So not exactly a fair comparison as margins would've been slightly different. Also, demand in 2021 was lower than now as people were only starting to travel more as restrictions eased.
Link to the old timetable: https://images-eyms.passenger-websi... 128 X28 timetable leaflet September 2021.pdf

In my view, spending BSIP money on the 3 to Hutton Buscel is a complete waste of resources. Spend that money on X28s (Scarb to Pick) with EY to fill in the hourly gaps. Hutton Buscel.still has an hourly service.

Completely agree, if North Yorkshire Council wants an hourly service between Scarborough and Hutton Buscel, EY could always run the X3 (which did serve Hutton Buscel) rather than the X28 (which didn't) as it would only slightly increase journey times.

 

[Delenn]

Regarding the hourly service East Yorkshire ran in 2021/2022, buses would run through to Kirkbymoorside every hour. So not exactly a fair comparison as margins would've been slightly different. Also, demand in 2021 was lower than now as people were only starting to travel more as restrictions eased.
Link to the old timetable: https://images-eyms.passenger-website.com/downloads/Service 128 X28 timetable leaflet September 2021.pdf


Completely agree, if North Yorkshire Council wants an hourly service between Scarborough and Hutton Buscel, EY could always run the X3 (which did serve Hutton Buscel) rather than the X28 (which didn't) as it would only slightly increase journey times.

Good point about X28 going through HB. I was thinking X3 routing.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ok - just to round things off from my perspective.

East Yorkshire will have had data from 2021/2. So yes, patronage figures will have been different but by 2022, there would have been a clear view as to where the likely end point was to be. Moreover, whilst patronage will have increased, so have staff costs markedly in that time so it's important to recognise that it's not a one dimensional problem.

There's some fair points about how BSIP money could and should be spent. So I say again... write to County Hall and make the suggestion about the Hutton Buscel route and how that money/resource could be deployed. On the surface, it seems an eminently sensible thing to put forward.

However, I still maintain that out of high season, it is going to be mighty hard to have a commercially viable service. I'd not seen that Viscount had registered a sea front service - if that is the case, it perhaps suggests that commercial reasons (as opposed to personal) were more significant than was originally stated.

 

[duncombec]

Not being local or a frequent visitor, I've somewhat struggled to follow the timeline of events here in regard to the introduction and withdrawal of Viscount's X28, and the various changes to EY services 28, X3 (and X28?), all of which are mentioned.

Is someone able to put together a quick "order of events"? Particularly whether the Viscount service was introduced before the EY timetable was reduced, or whether the reduction came first and the Viscount journeys followed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not being local or a frequent visitor, I've somewhat struggled to follow the timeline of events here in regard to the introduction and withdrawal of Viscount's X28, and the various changes to EY services 28, X3 (and X28?), all of which are mentioned.

Is someone able to put together a quick "order of events"? Particularly whether the Viscount service was introduced before the EY timetable was reduced, or whether the reduction came first and the Viscount journeys followed.

I think to summarise...

Historically the 128 was hourly Scarborough to Pickering with two hourly projections to Helmsley. Then we had the Covid times when it was all a bit messed up before 2021/2 saw it revised to be a two hourly X28 Scarborough to Helmsley and two hourly stopper Scarborough to Pickering and Kirkbymoorside.

However, with increasing costs, driver shortages and the post pandemic slump in passengers, East Yorkshire reduced it to a two hourly stopper Scarborough to Helmsley.

Then in September 2025, Viscount registered the X28 from Scarborough to Pickering every hour with some running to/from Malton. Not surprisingly, East Yorkshire responded by registering a hourly 128 plus extending the 3 (as the X3) to Pickering. Hence you had 3 buses an hour over that road, as well as reducing fares. Clearly overkill and designed to push Viscount off the route.

I can't recall when Viscount pulled from Malton but East Yorkshire reduced their services in January back to the current level whilst Viscount withdrew with two days notice last week.

 

[Delenn]

I think to summarise...

Historically the 128 was hourly Scarborough to Pickering with two hourly projections to Helmsley. Then we had the Covid times when it was all a bit messed up before 2021/2 saw it revised to be a two hourly X28 Scarborough to Helmsley and two hourly stopper Scarborough to Pickering and Kirkbymoorside.

However, with increasing costs, driver shortages and the post pandemic slump in passengers, East Yorkshire reduced it to a two hourly stopper Scarborough to Helmsley.

Then in September 2025, Viscount registered the X28 from Scarborough to Pickering every hour with some running to/from Malton. Not surprisingly, East Yorkshire responded by registering a hourly 128 plus extending the 3 (as the X3) to Pickering. Hence you had 3 buses an hour over that road, as well as reducing fares. Clearly overkill and designed to push Viscount off the route.

I can't recall when Viscount pulled from Malton but East Yorkshire reduced their services in January back to the current level whilst Viscount withdrew with two days notice last week.

Viscount left Malton early in January.

 

[duncombec]

I think to summarise...

Historically the 128 was hourly Scarborough to Pickering with two hourly projections to Helmsley. Then we had the Covid times when it was all a bit messed up before 2021/2 saw it revised to be a two hourly X28 Scarborough to Helmsley and two hourly stopper Scarborough to Pickering and Kirkbymoorside.

However, with increasing costs, driver shortages and the post pandemic slump in passengers, East Yorkshire reduced it to a two hourly stopper Scarborough to Helmsley.

Then in September 2025, Viscount registered the X28 from Scarborough to Pickering every hour with some running to/from Malton. Not surprisingly, East Yorkshire responded by registering a hourly 128 plus extending the 3 (as the X3) to Pickering. Hence you had 3 buses an hour over that road, as well as reducing fares. Clearly overkill and designed to push Viscount off the route.

I can't recall when Viscount pulled from Malton but East Yorkshire reduced their services in January back to the current level whilst Viscount withdrew with two days notice last week.

Thanks!

So Viscount reinstated the service level to what it was before EY reduced (which may have been unsustainable anyway), EY then deliberately overbussed in response, and therefore if not quite 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, it's probably not much further apart than 8 and 4.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I can't recall when Viscount pulled from Malton but East Yorkshire reduced their services in January back to the current level whilst Viscount withdrew with two days notice last week.

The enhanced service provided by EY ended in February, not January. The last X3 ran on 14 February, the reductions were announced in January.

Viscount left Malton early in January.

With the expectation of some X28s running to Flamingo Land in the Summer I believe.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The enhanced service provided by EY ended in February, not January. The last X3 ran on 14 February, the reductions were announced in January.

Thanks for clarifying. Seemed longer ago

 

[YorkRailFan]

Thanks for clarifying. Seemed longer ago

Quite a lot happened within a week to be fair. On the Sunday, the 28 was rolled out by EY seeing the end of the X3 and extra 128s. By the Saturday, Viscount's X28 had ended and the company was out of business. Quite the decrease in buses in just a week!

 

[Eyersey468]

Ok - just to round things off from my perspective.

East Yorkshire will have had data from 2021/2. So yes, patronage figures will have been different but by 2022, there would have been a clear view as to where the likely end point was to be. Moreover, whilst patronage will have increased, so have staff costs markedly in that time so it's important to recognise that it's not a one dimensional problem.

There's some fair points about how BSIP money could and should be spent. So I say again... write to County Hall and make the suggestion about the Hutton Buscel route and how that money/resource could be deployed. On the surface, it seems an eminently sensible thing to put forward.

However, I still maintain that out of high season, it is going to be mighty hard to have a commercially viable service. I'd not seen that Viscount had registered a sea front service - if that is the case, it perhaps suggests that commercial reasons (as opposed to personal) were more significant than was originally stated.

I have my suspicions that there was more to the closure than just personal reasons