A little Avanti rant

[Zoner]

I'm only here to let off steam, as I've once again got in to a debate at Euston with revenue protection who insist you can't use a zone 1-4 travelcard with a ticket from boundary zone 4 to travel on Avanti trains.

Nothing I could say would change the gentleman's mantra that the ticket isn't valid "because we don't accept Oyster on Avanti" and I'd need to buy a more expensive ticket in future. I've complained about this so many times and Avanti never change. I don't get this when traveling out of other London stations.

 

[Mike395]

Oh dear. Be sure to complain - it's important everyone does as its the only way gateline staff training will change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This one sounds like a classic myth that came from truth. A fair while ago (1990s certainly) Boundary Zone tickets were indeed not valid on IC TOCs - the requirement was that the TOC has two stops within Zone 1-6. That was dropped at some point, but I guess Avanti's, er, competent staff training, has meany some staff don't know it's changed (despite it changing 20-odd years ago) or some are still spreading the incorrect information around.

 

[Mike395]

This one sounds like a classic myth that came from truth. A fair while ago (1990s certainly) Boundary Zone tickets were indeed not valid on IC TOCs - the requirement was that the TOC has two stops within Zone 1-6. That was dropped at some point, but I guess Avanti's, er, competent staff training, has meany some staff don't know it's changed (despite it changing 20-odd years ago) or some are still spreading the incorrect information around.

I'm not sure this is the basis for it - I suspect it's just insufficient training rather than the history playing a part here with it being so long ago.

 

[Haywain]

I'm only here to let off steam, as I've once again got in to a debate at Euston with revenue protection who insist you can't use a zone 1-4 travelcard with a ticket from boundary zone 4 to travel on Avanti trains.

Nothing I could say would change the gentleman's mantra that the ticket isn't valid "because we don't accept Oyster on Avanti" and I'd need to buy a more expensive ticket in future. I've complained about this so many times and Avanti never change. I don't get this when traveling out of other London stations.

Where were you travelling to?

 

[Zoner]

Where were you travelling to?

MKC

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2026 ==

Oh dear. Be sure to complain - it's important everyone does as its the only way gateline staff training will change.

Thanks Mike. My complaint is written and filed. Based on past experience there's a 50:50 chance that the first reply will claim that the staff member was correct.

 

[Haywain]

MKC

Other than an Anytime Day Return, there's no savings to be made by buying from Boundary Zone 4 to Milton Keynes Central. The tickets are cheaper from Euston.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

Earlier this month, I decided to catch an Avanti one stop to Milton Keynes Central just to get out of London (had just missed the LNR train).

The supervisor at the ticket gate told me I couldn't board because I had to go to Watford. My ticket was an off-peak day Travelcard from Long Buckby that said "valid only via Watford Junction" on it. I was shocked that not only did the staff member not realise that via just means the route has to pass through, she actually thought I had to physically go to Watford, not just stop there! Worryingly, she appeared to be the most senior of the three staff at the gateline as all queries were being sent her way.

I argued the point but she just kept repeating "you need to go to Watford". Luckily it didn't really matter, so I stomped off.

Incidentally, I have absolutely no idea why this ticket is specifically routed via Watford. If it's to stop passengers going via Rugby, then it should say via Northampton, as the trains from Rugby go via Watford anyway. I can't think what the route would be that doesn't go via Watford: the only way to avoid it would be to catch the train from MK to Bedford which would be much longer and slower.

 

[Zoner]

Other than an Anytime Day Return, there's no savings to be made by buying from Boundary Zone 4 to Milton Keynes Central. The tickets are cheaper from Euston.

Thanks, it was indeed an anytime day return.

 

[Haywain]

Incidentally, I have absolutely no idea why this ticket is specifically routed via Watford. If it's to stop passengers going via Rugby, then it should say via Northampton, as the trains from Rugby go via Watford anyway. I can't think what the route would be that doesn't go via Watford: the only way to avoid it would be to catch the train from MK to Bedford which would be much longer and slower.

Probably in anticipation of the opening of the Bletchley to Oxford line

 

[centraltrains]

I had similar at New Street from the ticket office, holding a zone 1-4 nTrain season ticket I requested a ticket from the Zone 4 boundary station (Marston Green) to Birmingham International and was told I could only travel on the local stopper trains.

Mentioned about National Rail conditions allowing the train to not need to stop when one is a season ticket but they told me this is only true if both tickets are a season ticket.

Complained and was told it was a WMR ticket office, despite the fact they wear Avanti uniform. Still need to follow up to the complaint.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Earlier this month, I decided to catch an Avanti one stop to Milton Keynes Central just to get out of London (had just missed the LNR train).

The supervisor at the ticket gate told me I couldn't board because I had to go to Watford. My ticket was an off-peak day Travelcard from Long Buckby that said "valid only via Watford Junction" on it. I was shocked that not only did the staff member not realise that via just means the route has to pass through, she actually thought I had to physically go to Watford, not just stop there! Worryingly, she appeared to be the most senior of the three staff at the gateline as all queries were being sent her way.

I argued the point but she just kept repeating "you need to go to Watford". Luckily it didn't really matter, so I stomped off.

Incidentally, I have absolutely no idea why this ticket is specifically routed via Watford. If it's to stop passengers going via Rugby, then it should say via Northampton, as the trains from Rugby go via Watford anyway. I can't think what the route would be that doesn't go via Watford: the only way to avoid it would be to catch the train from MK to Bedford which would be much longer and slower.

Probably in anticipation of the opening of the Bletchley to Oxford line

No, it long predates that. It is to prevent the ticket being valid via Bletchley, Bedford and Thameslink as I recall it would undercut some fares from Bedford. The route Watford Jn is only on the Travelcards, as it's only those that would have that validity, the point to point tickets do not and so are Any Permitted (or ".", I forget). Validity of permitted routes on Travelcards is at best a bit vague - traditionally I recall it was based on routes to London Terminals (which don't exist via Bedford) but planners work it out a bit differently so it was coming up for that journey, certainly to places like Elstree and Borehamwood.

The same issue would probably affect Oxford if you used Hanwell as the destination, though, so it kind of does work there too.

But that really is the Avanti gateline staff excelling themselves - a LOT of those tickets will be sold from MKC, they must see hundreds a day at least. It's not even remotely obscure.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

But that really is the Avanti gateline staff excelling themselves - a LOT of those tickets will be sold from MKC, they must see hundreds a day at least. It's not even remotely obscure.

I suspect I would have made it through with an MK Travelcard, I think part of the issue was they had no idea where Long Buckby was! Equally inexcusable really.

 

[MrJeeves]

Complained and was told it was a WMR ticket office, despite the fact they wear Avanti uniform. Still need to follow up to the complaint.

Now that is an impressive level of incompetence.

The ticket office is Avanti.

 

[Hadders]

Incidentally, I have absolutely no idea why this ticket is specifically routed via Watford. If it's to stop passengers going via Rugby, then it should say via Northampton, as the trains from Rugby go via Watford anyway. I can't think what the route would be that doesn't go via Watford: the only way to avoid it would be to catch the train from MK to Bedford which would be much longer and slower.

The routeing was changed to ‘via Watford Junction’ a few years back because apparently ‘Any Permitted’ is too complicated for people to understand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The routeing was changed to ‘via Watford Junction’ a few years back because apparently ‘Any Permitted’ is too complicated for people to understand.

I'm pretty much certain in this case it was to remove validity via the MML as I note above. The point to point tickets do not carry that route (they are Any Permitted) as they were never valid that way. Whereas if you entered a station in the Zones on the MML (e.g. Elstree and Borehamwood) the Travelcard would come up for travel via Bedford, and that undercut some tickets from there.

Pointless routes like that were put in on some point to point tickets, though, e.g. route Rugby on some MKC-places north of Rugby on the WCML where there is no sensible other route than via Rugby.

 

[Hadders]

I'm pretty much certain in this case it was to remove validity via the MML as I note above. The point to point tickets do not carry that route (they are Any Permitted) as they were never valid that way. Whereas if you entered a station in the Zones on the MML (e.g. Elstree and Borehamwood) the Travelcard would come up for travel via Bedford, and that undercut some tickets from there.

Pointless routes like that were put in on some point to point tickets, though, e.g. route Rugby on some MKC-places north of Rugby on the WCML where there is no sensible other route than via Rugby.

Nothing to do with the MML. It was part of the initiative a few years back to ‘simplify’ Amy Permitted as apparently people found it confusing.

It’s why we have route ‘.’ on some tickets and why tickets like Milton Keynes to Manchester are routed ‘via Rugby’

 

[yorkie]

I'm only here to let off steam, as I've once again got in to a debate at Euston with revenue protection who insist you can't use a zone 1-4 travelcard with a ticket from boundary zone 4 to travel on Avanti trains.

Please ensure you put in a complaint.

If you bought the ticket from our ticketing site, I will be happy to provide some additional help; let me know if that is the case and if you do not get a good answer from Avanti, I will ensure that Avanti are chased up on this.

Nothing I could say would change the gentleman's mantra that the ticket isn't valid "because we don't accept Oyster on Avanti" and I'd need to buy a more expensive ticket in future. I've complained about this so many times and Avanti never change. I don't get this when traveling out of other London stations.

As you point out, the tickets held by some passengers are not going to be accepted by some Avanti staff, especially at stations at bases with a notorious reputation, such as Euston. Those who attempt to concert their contractual rights with such staff about being able to use perfectly valid tickets are often looked at with some suspicion!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing to do with the MML. It was part of the initiative a few years back to ‘simplify’ Amy Permitted as apparently people found it confusing.

It’s why we have route ‘.’ on some tickets and why tickets like Milton Keynes to Manchester are routed ‘via Rugby’

Then why are the point to point tickets not routed WFJ?

 

[nw-sparks]

Sadly, you can take the railway out of Virgin, but you can't take Virgin's disdain for the passenger out of the railway.

 

[jfollows]

Sadly, you can take the railway out of Virgin, but you can't take Virgin's disdain for the passenger out of the railway.

Avanti?

Actually I think Virgin always had a better idea of what its customers expected than Avanti ever has done.

 

[Harpo]

Avanti?

Actually I think Virgin always had a better idea of what its customers expected than Avanti ever has done.

Virgin talked a good game but the front line attitude was no better. Sit in any of the rearmost three rows in FC leaving London in Virgin days and await a tongue lashing from the fearsome catering ladies.

 

[Hadders]

Sadly, you can take the railway out of Virgin, but you can't take Virgin's disdain for the passenger out of the railway.

Avanti?

Actually I think Virgin always had a better idea of what its customers expected than Avanti ever has done.

Virgin talked a good game but the front line attitude was no better. Sit in any of the rearmost three rows in FC leaving London in Virgin days and await a tongue lashing from the fearsome catering ladies.

Virgin Trains ceased operating trains more than six years ago. I really don't think this one's anything to do with them or what they may or may not have done in the past.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Virgin talked a good game but the front line attitude was no better. Sit in any of the rearmost three rows in FC leaving London in Virgin days and await a tongue lashing from the fearsome catering ladies.

On a weekday without a reservation I have attempted to take a seat in "K" (1st class with the galley) heading out of Euston and the Avanti Staff have been very quick to advise me I would be "much more comfortable" in the next coach ... Whilst that might be very true when "K" is the leading vehicle ... I did rather get the impression that Avanti staff saw it as their staff carriage. Anyway I declined their "delightful offer" to move as I was 1 round a table of 4 at a window.

 

[Falcon1200]

On a weekday without a reservation I have attempted to take a seat in "K" (1st class with the galley) heading out of Euston and the Avanti Staff have been very quick to advise me I would be "much more comfortable" in the next coach

I've had that on a departure from Euston too, just the once; Also once on a northbound service at Warrington Bank Quay. But generally it is just the seats nearest the galley that staff like to keep free for themselves, understandable I suppose as they have to sit somewhere when not required to serve passengers. But in no way whatsoever should they be trying to keep Coach K as their staff messroom.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

But in no way whatsoever should they be trying to keep Coach K as their staff messroom.

Nor should they be loudly discussing the private life of one of their colleagues, as I witnessed. This was two men by the way, in case anyone still holds the outdated opinion that gossips are exclusively middle aged women!

 

[ajp999]

Virgin talked a good game but the front line attitude was no better. Sit in any of the rearmost three rows in FC leaving London in Virgin days and await a tongue lashing from the fearsome catering ladies.

Still happening today even when first class is solely in coach K and is not restricted to catering ladies (or London). Have decamped to the peace and quiet of coach J. The only downside the lack of any at-seat refreshments.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Virgin Trains ceased operating trains more than six years ago. I really don't think this one's anything to do with them or what they may or may not have done in the past.

You'd be surprised and not only on the West Coast

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

The refurbishment of Pendolino saw crew rest seats installed by the service door to stop Coach K being used as crew rest ( maybe a curtain needs putting round the double seat in last row )

 

[Polarbear]

Just boarded my Avanti service to Liverpool. Euston got the train cleaned & open for boarding 20 mins prior to departure, which is good. Unfortunately, (and this seems to be a thing with the 805/807’s), the seat reservations are not uploaded (and still not 4 mins to departure). Same happened on the outward service.

Is this an issue specific to the train type or something else?