Can someone please help with a rail fine given to my daughter. Would like to know if any grounds to appeal.

[Fawkes Cat]

It hasn't been asserted that the ticket machine is inaccessible to the OP's daughter, only that she had not used one before.

Post #6:

Hi my daughter has never used a ticket machine..doesn't know how ..with her autism I've taught her to buy one on her phone as she doesn't like communicating with people

It would be challenging (probably not impossible, but challenging - both in a logical way and for the railway's public image) for the railway to argue that a disability that means you need to be taught how to use a ticket machine, and that you have never been so taught, doesn't constitute a disability that prevents you accessing a ticket machine.

 

[WesternLancer]

Post #6:

It would be challenging (probably not impossible, but challenging - both in a logical way and for the railway's public image) for the railway to argue that a disability that means you need to be taught how to use a ticket machine, and that you have never been so taught, doesn't constitute a disability that prevents you accessing a ticket machine.

FWIW I do agree with this.

Hopefully op is getting on ok with appeal drafting. That’s the key thing it seems to me.

I don’t think the wider debate here about how the daughter could have potentially used the ticket machine are much help to the op really. I think the op has given a clear explanation of why their daughter could not have used the ticket machine and I think we should just accept that in this case.

 

[AlterEgo]

FWIW I do agree with this.

Hopefully op is getting on ok with appeal drafting. That’s the key thing it seems to me.

I don’t think the wider debate here about how the daughter could have potentially used the ticket machine are much help to the op really. I think the op has given a clear explanation of why their daughter could not have used the ticket machine and I think we should just accept that in this case.

It's really important to discern between "she hasn't used one before" and "the machine is inaccessible due to her disability" because the latter gives a stonewall defence to the penalty fare and the former is merely mitigation. It is not clear at all and this is the most important fact at play.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's really important to discern between "she hasn't used one before" and "the machine is inaccessible due to her disability" because the latter gives a stonewall defence to the penalty fare and the former is merely mitigation. It is not clear at all and this is the most important fact at play.

Personally I think there is a good chance there is a blurred distinction on this

Whilst important, I tend to think that can be left to the Appeals body to take a decision on it.

I note the OP has not been back to the thread since Sunday evening. I'm just hoping the thread is not moving into a debate between forum members which isn't any longer of active help to the OP in lodging a successful appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally I think there is a good chance there is a blurred distinction on this

Whilst important, I tend to think that can be left to the Appeals body to take a decision on it.

I note the OP has not been back to the thread since Sunday evening. I'm just hoping the thread is not moving into a debate between forum members which isn't any longer of active help to the OP in lodging a successful appeal.

If the OP is going to fetch medical evidence - particularly if it is a doctor's letter - then it should not be a blurred distinction. Either the ticket machine is accessible to her daughter, or it is not.

It is actually not for the appeals panel to decide whether facilities are accessible or not. They aren't the judge of that. The disabled person is, and it will help their case if they can evidence that.

The big problem here is submitting an appeal on "compelling reasons" which has a higher propensity to fail than one based on a defence made out in the law. Just saying "well it's a grey area" is not helpful to the OP. If the ticket machine is actually inaccessible (and not just "she has never used one before"), provide evidence of the same and assert it in the appeal. This is in their best interests.

Only the OP can tell us if the facilities were accessible or not, and so far, they have not asserted this. Getting clarity on this will assist the appeal hugely.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Only the OP can tell us if the facilities were accessible or not, and so far, they have not asserted this.

Yes they have. See my post #61 above, referencing the OP's post #6.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes they have. See my post #61 above, referencing the OP's post #6.

"Nobody has ever shown me how to use one" is not an assertion that the machine is inaccessible. If it's inaccessible, say so, and better still, provide evidence of it if you can.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

"Nobody has ever shown me how to use one" is not an assertion that the machine is inaccessible.

What about 'I do not know how to use a ticket machine, and as my autism disables me such that I qualify for a Disabled Person's Railcard I am unable to learn how to use it without being taught - and no one has ever taught me how to use it'?

I'm not sufficiently familiar with disability law to know whether 'inaccessible' has a specific and narrow meaning, but my expectation is that in the Railcard Ts&Cs it's used as a deliberately vague and broad term to cover the many different ways that someone might not be able to use a ticket machine (or booking office if there was one). And practically speaking it seems to me that the ticket machine was inaccessible to the OP's daughter in that they were unable to work it - just as much as it would be inaccessible to someone with no vision who couldn't see the screen*, or to someone with mobility issues who was unable to push the buttons.

*Assuming for this example that ticket machines aren't designed to talk to you if you can't see,

 

[WesternLancer]

What about 'I do not know how to use a ticket machine, and as my autism disables me such that I qualify for a Disabled Person's Railcard I am unable to learn how to use it without being taught - and no one has ever taught me how to use it'?

I'm not sufficiently familiar with disability law to know whether 'inaccessible' has a specific and narrow meaning, but my expectation is that in the Railcard Ts&Cs it's used as a deliberately vague and broad term to cover the many different ways that someone might not be able to use a ticket machine (or booking office if there was one). And practically speaking it seems to me that the ticket machine was inaccessible to the OP's daughter in that they were unable to work it - just as much as it would be inaccessible to someone with no vision who couldn't see the screen*, or to someone with mobility issues who was unable to push the buttons.

*Assuming for this example that ticket machines aren't designed to talk to you if you can't see,

helpful suggestion I think

 

[AlterEgo]

What about 'I do not know how to use a ticket machine, and as my autism disables me such that I qualify for a Disabled Person's Railcard I am unable to learn how to use it without being taught - and no one has ever taught me how to use it'?

That isn't what the OP has said.

What has been said is that:

- she does not know how to use a ticket machine as she has never been shown how, and
- with her autism, her mother has shown her how to buy online because she doesn't like talking to people

She hasn't said that her autism qualifies her for the Disabled Railcard (only that her PIP, probably awarded on the basis of multiple disabilities as it aggregates scores) does, or that she is unable to learn how to use a ticket machine - those are assumptions you've made and is not what has been said about the disabilities. And it's really important we get the facts straight.

What I'm saying is - yes, on the grounds of common sense you might feel this all adds up to "hmmm not sure I would ever want to disallow an appeal on these grounds", but what I'm saying is "why bother leaving it to common sense?". There is a huge difference between "seems unreasonable to charge the PF" and "seems unlawful to charge it".

The OP's daughter also has OCD, which we've seen in the past can also make some sufferers avoidant of ticket machines to the point they are inaccessible. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-rules-as-a-disabled-passenger.285004/page-4

If the facilities are inaccessible, say so in the appeal, clearly, and evidence it. It isn't up to anyone to judge this unless they are told it.

practically speaking it seems to me that the ticket machine was inaccessible to the OP's daughter in that they were unable to work it

But we don't know if that's because they lack all capability because of their disability or simply because, like anyone else, they just need to be shown how to use a ticket machine. "I don't know how to use a ticket machine" is not a declaration it is inaccessible.

A lot of older people are unable to buy tickets online because they have never been shown how to do it. That does not make the websites or apps inaccessible.

I'm not trying to litigate the OP's daughter's disabilities, but I am trying to remain factual and sticking to what we have been told.

 

[saismee]

A lot of older people are unable to buy tickets online because they have never been shown how to do it. That does not make the websites or apps inaccessible.

Likewise with TVMs. I find that a lot of older passengers are afraid of the machines until shown how to use it, then are shocked at how easy they actually are.

 

[MotCO]

If the facilities are inaccessible, say so in the appeal, clearly, and evidence it. It isn't up to anyone to judge this unless they are told it.

I think this is very sound advice. The OP should spell out how his daughter's disability means it is not possible for her to use a ticket machine and a ticket office, rather than leave it unsaid and hope for the best.

 

[vikkitheviking]

Hi everyone, I just want to firstly thank everyone who took the time to reply to my post.
I did not see replies since last Monday, for some reason I wasn't getting the email notifications so I truly apologise that I never replied to people.
I had gathered all her PIP information, her blue badge and her diagnosis information ready for the third appeal but was pleasantly surprised that on this occasion common sense prevailed before that and my second appeal was successful, I received an email today and I quote "
I acknowledge the points raised by yourself and this case has been fully reviewed.
Upon further assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed."

I really appreciate everyone's assistance in this issue and all your knowledge really helped me to win this case.
Thanks
A very relieved mother

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone, I just want to firstly thank everyone who took the time to reply to my post.
I did not see replies since last Monday, for some reason I wasn't getting the email notifications so I truly apologise that I never replied to people.
I had gathered all her PIP information, her blue badge and her diagnosis information ready for the third appeal but was pleasantly surprised that on this occasion common sense prevailed before that and my second appeal was successful, I received an email today and I quote "
I acknowledge the points raised by yourself and this case has been fully reviewed.
Upon further assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed."

I really appreciate everyone's assistance in this issue and all your knowledge really helped me to win this case.
Thanks
A very relieved mother

Thanks for letting us know: I guess that we share your relief - and feedback like this is always helpful for us to give advice to others.

 

[njr001]

That’s good news and I hope this hasn’t put your daughter off travelling by train.

 

[vikkitheviking]

Thanks for letting us know: I guess that we share your relief - and feedback like this is always helpful for us to give advice to others.

Yes , I asked previously on another platform and they were quite nasty at times with the responses, so it's nice to know my daughter's disabilities are taken into consideration, as it was quite disheartening and difficult seeing how some view disability.
I will always advocate for my daughter of course and next time I drop her am going to teach her to use the ticket machines just incase but it was so upsetting because as a family we are very honest and do things correctly so I was upset that she was treated the way she was with what seemed like no consideration for her issues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2026 ==

That’s good news and I hope this hasn’t put your daughter off travelling by train.m

This week I had to take her to Stafford because she was very worried but I'm hoping that with a little time she will be fine to use the trains again.
Thankyou

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone, I just want to firstly thank everyone who took the time to reply to my post.
I did not see replies since last Monday, for some reason I wasn't getting the email notifications so I truly apologise that I never replied to people.
I had gathered all her PIP information, her blue badge and her diagnosis information ready for the third appeal but was pleasantly surprised that on this occasion common sense prevailed before that and my second appeal was successful, I received an email today and I quote "
I acknowledge the points raised by yourself and this case has been fully reviewed.
Upon further assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed."

I really appreciate everyone's assistance in this issue and all your knowledge really helped me to win this case.
Thanks
A very relieved mother

Really pleased to hear this and well done for your efforts on this.

Also very best wishes to your daughter. It can’t be easy to navigate some of the challenges travel operators put in place but hopefully she’ll find it handy to have knowledge of ticket machine in future if required.

Thanks for updating. And of course the forum has handy ticket advice section if ever needed plus a ticket buying feature that helps support it if that is of any use to know.

 

[vikkitheviking]

Really pleased to hear this and well done for your efforts on this.

Also very best wishes to your daughter. It can’t be easy to navigate some of the challenges travel operators put in place but hopefully she’ll find it handy to have knowledge of ticket machine in future if required.

Thanks for updating. And of course the forum has handy ticket advice section if ever needed plus a ticket buying feature that helps support it if that is of any use to know.

Thankyou so much, you have no idea how the help on here enabled me to better give my daughter a voice and restored my faith a little
that her life won't always be difficult as there is understanding people out there.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thankyou so much, you have no idea how the help on here enabled me to better give my daughter a voice and restored my faith a little
that her life won't always be difficult as there is understanding people out there.

Thanks. I’m certain everyone here is happy and pleased to help.

Even robust questions about what happened will have been with the intention of strengthening the prospect of a successful appeal.

 

[z444z]

Thank you for the update, very glad to hear this outcome! All the best

 

[soccermad]

Great News. and I hope you are both OK now its resolved

 

[starlight73]

This week I had to take her to Stafford because she was very worried but I'm hoping that with a little time she will be fine to use the trains again.
Thankyou

it’s such good news it’s sorted out now. OP, I don’t know if this is useful, but you could consider using passenger assist if you haven’t already. They are there for non-visible disabilities too. It means staff would help your daughter navigate stations. The guard would be told she needs assistance. And if the train is delayed or cancelled staff would also help her re-route.

some people also use autism communication cards which can make asking for help easier.

(this is slightly off topic, but it’s related to the difficulty of using the ticket machine)

 

[vikkitheviking]

it’s such good news it’s sorted out now. OP, I don’t know if this is useful, but you could consider using passenger assist if you haven’t already. They are there for non-visible disabilities too. It means staff would help your daughter navigate stations. The guard would be told she needs assistance. And if the train is delayed or cancelled staff would also help her re-route.

some people also use autism communication cards which can make asking for help easier.

(this is slightly off topic, but it’s related to the difficulty of using the ticket machine)

Thankyou for this