When did Victoria replace London Bridge?

[The Pelican]

The other question is- since Bristol, Plymouth and Southampton had ships to North America, South America, Africa, Asia and Australia, can we find a ship to or from these ports which went close enough to count as Antarctica?

Rudyard Kipling's "McAndrew's Hymn" - about a Scottish steamship engineer around the turn of the century- includes the lines:

We'll tak' one stretch - three weeks an' odd by any road ye steer -
Fra' Cape Town east to Wellington - ye need an engineer.
Fail there - ye've time to weld your shaft - ay, eat it, ere ye're spoke,
Or make Kerguelen under sail - three jiggers burned wi' smoke!
An' home again, the Rio run: it's no child's play to go
Steamin' to bell for fourteen days o' snow an' floe an' blow -
The bergs like kelpies overside that girn an' turn an' shift
Whaur, grindin' like the Mills o' God, goes by the big South drift.

In other words- the Wellington to Rio leg, which is suprisingly direct when measured using great circle distance, took Victorian steamships into the "Roaring Forties", with lots of large icebergs. I wonder if any of these ships went far enough south to count as visiting Antarctica?

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think that there were boat trains from Fenchurch Street to Tilbury at some point. I have a recollection that a handful of EMUs had a whole coach dedicated to luggage, although these may have run from Liverpool St.

There were - Class 308/2 nos 313-321. They ran from Fenchurch Street.

Some bopat trains also ran from St Pancras, via the tottengham & hampstead Line (now the Sufragette Line) These were loco hauled of course

 

[Transilien]

Comfy Electrostar or nasty 700 ironing board. Not a difficult choice.

Many of the later Electostars share the same ironing board seats, even in first class. The 700s at least have fansia sophias in first!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==

Anyway, did the introduction of Thameslink in the 80s have any effect on decreasing terminating Brighton services at London Bridge?

 

[WesternLancer]

Brighton line services has long history of at least a few trains per day, usually in the morning and evening peaks, terminating and starting at London Bridge for people who worked in the city.

Also 1 or 2 to and from Eastbourne and I suspect west coast way equivalent at those times too.

Pretty sure these existed in the 1970s and before thameslink and I think dated back to electrification but probably before that too.

I seem to recall one or more of the ex London Bridge trains stopped at minor stations east of Lewes giving direct commuter train to places like Berwick from the city.

 

[Mike99]

There must have been a link on GWR to South America, Peru in particular, the buffet stocked with Marmalade sandwiches............

 

[BayPaul]

There must have been a link on GWR to South America, Peru in particular, the buffet stocked with Marmalade sandwiches............

Plymouth was indeed a main arrival point for Royal Mail Steam Packet Lines from 1873, probably the biggest UK - South America line.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Not having to travel from the coast on 700s probably helps the popularity of the Victoria service...

Yes I do agree. I won’t be making that mistake again.

Brighton line services has long history of at least a few trains per day, usually in the morning and evening peaks, terminating and starting at London Bridge for people who worked in the city.

Also 1 or 2 to and from Eastbourne and I suspect west coast way equivalent at those times too.

Pretty sure these existed in the 1970s and before thameslink and I think dated back to electrification but probably before that too.

I seem to recall one or more of the ex London Bridge trains stopped at minor stations east of Lewes giving direct commuter train to places like Berwick from the city.

Yes I remember seeing trains as far away as Portsmouth run to London Bridge pre-2021 I think.

I’m guessing Victoria had all day demand whereas London Bridge was more peak only demand

 

[WesternLancer]

I’m guessing Victoria had all day demand whereas London Bridge was more peak only demand

That’s a good point I would think.

Worthwhile looking at a few old timetables to see exactly what the pattern was at London Bridge.

 

[Surreytraveller]

People don't realise a change at London Bridge for Charing Cross takes you far closer to the West End than Victoria does.
Victoria is only useful for the coach station, Buckingham Palace and the museums

 

[Snow1964]

There is also some information in Southern Railway history books, before the First World War, apart from Government offices and the West End for shopping and leisure, there wasn't such a big demand for Victoria as getting to City.

In the inter war years a number of big houses in St James, Mayfair areas were converted to offices, and Government expanded and this increased the proportion going to Victoria.

The opening of the Victoria line in 1969 provided a boost as it made it easier to get to West end shopping and attractions.

In more recent years some of those office conversions have changed to hotels, apartments or been redeveloped and has changed west vs east ratio again. With more now commuting to London Bridge, Blackfriars, or changing to get to Canary Wharf etc.

There is another interesting statistic (although can't find any links at moment) where the morning high peak at Victoria is later than the City. The busiest in the City is nearer 8-8:30am whereas at Victoria it is nearer 8:45-9:15am. Suggests those in west have later job start times.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There is another interesting statistic (although can't find any links at moment) where the morning high peak at Victoria is later than the City. The busiest in the City is nearer 8-8:30am whereas at Victoria it is nearer 8:45-9:15am. Suggests those in west have later job start times.

Not necessarily. Could be that folk travelling via Victoria, for work in the immediate area, don't have quite as far to go on their onward journeys. For the 'City', it's quite likely necessary to have to cross the Thames into the "Square Mile" which takes a bit of time, or even to have to schlep to somewhere like Canary Wharf.

 

[etr221]

Paddington also had boat trains from Plymouth (but not in the reverse direction) - and Fishguard briefly - connecting off ocean liners from New York.

Did any of the Plymouth liners make calls in France (as some of the Southhamption ones did)?

There was a time when the GWR slipped broad gauge coaches from up Paddington trains which were worked through to the SER station at Victoria.

The GWR was a part owner of Victoria, sharing the LCDR side - and there was broad gauge through to it.
The SER never had an interest in Victoria - it was LCDR before the SECR combination.

On a slightly different tack, I did once try working out which London main line Termini had - at some time or other - a through service from Croydon (one or other station) and concluded that the only ones which didn't were Marylebone, Fenchurch Street and (probably) Broad Street. (Euston was an odd mainly parcels train)

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Talk of the GWR in a Southern thread. *shakes head*

 

[75A]

In answer to Western Lancers (Post 34), certainly in the early 80's when I worked on the footplate @ Brighton there were quite a lot of trains to London Bridge from Coastway West stations: Here are some of the Headcodes used:

3 London Bridge to Littlehampton via the Quarry & Hove
5 London Bridge to Brighton
7 London Bridge to Bognor Regis via the Quarry & Horsham
9 London Bridge to Portsmouth Harbour via the Quarry and Horsham.

I can remember during the time that Victoria was being redeveloped
both the Brighton & Eastbourne/Hastings Newspaper trains were moved to L.Bridge.

 

[35B]

Good to hear Victoria is still the main terminus. I am surprised to hear about Blackfriars’ popularity. Even from Kings Lynn Blackfriars is a popular destination.

I’m not. A station that has good access to City and South Bank area, with services from north and south. The only reason it’s not busier is that it is so close to both City Thameslink and London Bridge

 

[WesternLancer]

In answer to Western Lancers (Post 34), certainly in the early 80's when I worked on the footplate @ Brighton there were quite a lot of trains to London Bridge from Coastway West stations: Here are some of the Headcodes used:

3 London Bridge to Littlehampton via the Quarry & Hove
5 London Bridge to Brighton
7 London Bridge to Bognor Regis via the Quarry & Horsham
9 London Bridge to Portsmouth Harbour via the Quarry and Horsham.

I can remember during the time that Victoria was being redeveloped
both the Brighton & Eastbourne/Hastings Newspaper trains were moved to L.Bridge.

Many thanks!
Confirms my hunch
and I can recall Eastbourne ones, tho I don't know headcodes. Unsure if they went through to Hastings or terminated / started at Eastbourne

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I’m not. A station that has good access to City and South Bank area, with services from north and south. The only reason it’s not busier is that it is so close to both City Thameslink and London Bridge

I’ve never found Blackfriars to be particularly useful.

 

[jfollows]

London Bridge to Eastbourne were 51 to Ore, all of the headcodes 1 more than the equivalent Victoria services.

 

[Magdalia]

I’ve never found Blackfriars to be particularly useful.

Blackfriars became much more useful when it gained its South Bank entrance/exit.

For Whitehall and Westminster Blackfriars is as good, if not better, than Victoria.

all of the headcodes 1 more than the equivalent Victoria services.

Most, but not all. If I remember right from Victoria East Grinstead was 66 and Uckfield 88, from London Bridge East Grinstead was 77 and Uckfield 99.

 

[jfollows]

Most, but not all. If I remember right from Victoria East Grinstead was 66 and Uckfield 88, from London Bridge East Grinstead was 77 and Uckfield 99.

Agreed.
The multiples of 11 came from diesels being guaranteed to have roller blinds displaying the headcodes, whereas at one point electric units sometimes had stencils, so couldn’t display the same number twice, so the multiples of 11 went to diesel services.

 

[WesternLancer]

London Bridge to Eastbourne were 51 to Ore, all of the headcodes 1 more than the equivalent Victoria services.

Many thanks - I think I can recall seeing that on the trains now you mention it!

 

[Cowley]

There’s a thread to discuss Boat Trains in general, here:

Historical Boat trains

I was taking a trip down Memory Lane with a friend the other day when the talk turned to various jaunts abroad that we took. I recalled my Interail trip in 1980, which I started off on the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry. (The deal with the Interail card was that they offered you a cheap rate on the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[35B]

I’ve never found Blackfriars to be particularly useful.

Nor in general do I - and my office is 5 minutes walk. But if I look at the location and what it supports, I can go beyond what I would find useful or relevant, and see much more potential as a result.

 

[jfollows]

I’ve never found Blackfriars to be particularly useful.

I don’t think I’ve ever used Blackfriars, other than passing though; I’ve always found other stations more convenient or useful I agree. I have used Holborn Viaduct, but that’s definitely not for this thread …..

 

[WesternLancer]

I don’t think I’ve ever used Blackfriars, other than passing though; I’ve always found other stations more convenient or useful I agree. I have used Holborn Viaduct, but that’s definitely not for this thread …..

I think I used it to walk to Waterloo to make a change a year or so ago - possibly when a tube line was closed and this seemed like a convenient alternative option. Probably coming from the north on Thameslink and needing to get to Waterloo.

And I assume the interesting Blackfriars pub is nearby? (interior architectural features place it on a CAMRA list for such things)

 

[Western Sunset]

Uckfield (diesel) services use London Bridge as their terminus.

 

[jfollows]

Uckfield (diesel) services use London Bridge as their terminus.

Diesels (171s anyway) are banned from Southern platforms at Victoria.
Ventilation shafts in the wrong places.

Could the Southern region DEMUs been built as bimodes?

Before electrification to East Grinstead, most - or at least many - of the Oxted line DEMU services went to Victoria. I forget how things worked date wise, but certainly AIUI the concentration of the Uckfield services (which stayed diesel) at London Bridge was connected with reccnstruction at...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[35B]

Diesels banned from Southern platforms at Victoria.
Ventilation shafts in the wrong places.

Could the Southern region DEMUs been built as bimodes?

Before electrification to East Grinstead, most - or at least many - of the Oxted line DEMU services went to Victoria. I forget how things worked date wise, but certainly AIUI the concentration of the Uckfield services (which stayed diesel) at London Bridge was connected with reccnstruction at...

www.railforums.co.uk

More precisely, 23m long DMUs with car end exhausts on every car barred because the ventilation was designed around DEMUS with 3 20m long cars with 1 power car per unit.

As, post East Grinstead electrification, many of the remaining Uckfield commuter workings were to LB anyway, I suspect the inconvenience of focusing the traffic there and removing it from Victoria wasn't that great.

 

[zwk500]

Diesels (171s anyway) are banned from Southern platforms at Victoria.
Ventilation shafts in the wrong places.

Could the Southern region DEMUs been built as bimodes?

Before electrification to East Grinstead, most - or at least many - of the Oxted line DEMU services went to Victoria. I forget how things worked date wise, but certainly AIUI the concentration of the Uckfield services (which stayed diesel) at London Bridge was connected with reccnstruction at...

www.railforums.co.uk

Technically theyre permitted but only with prior permission to allow station staff to get the fans up to speed prior to arrival.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I think I used it to walk to Waterloo to make a change a year or so ago - possibly when a tube line was closed and this seemed like a convenient alternative option. Probably coming from the north on Thameslink and needing to get to Waterloo.

And I assume the interesting Blackfriars pub is nearby? (interior architectural features place it on a CAMRA list for such things)

Yes the 'Blackfriar' is directly opposite the Queen Victoria St. entrance to Blackfriars station - well worth a look for its tiled interior. Back in the day I used to go to meetings in the (former) South West Trains offices on Blackfriars Rd. - this was a favoured rendezvous afterwards!