Future of IC225 Sets

[Halish Railway]

PLPR?

Plain line pattern recognition trains, being the technical term for pretty much any Network Rail test train you will see.

 

[43096]

Plain line pattern recognition trains

Correct

being the technical term for pretty much any Network Rail test train you will see.

Very over-simplified description.

 

[popeter45]

I suspect the coaches will need bogie overhauls by the time they stand down. The locos will need expensive attention too.

I think a charter operator might question whether an extra 76 seats in a rake might make more financial sense than a DVT if terminus stations can be avoided on trips.

The 91s are good at what they do, but are very high geared and thus slow starting which can be a disadvantage, especially on routes where faster acceleration is prevelant.

suprised nothing was ever suggested for post 225 use for the 91's
from what ive heard they have quite a bit of free space in them due to the underslung transformer so prime for being some kind of testbed for bi-mode or battey operations

 

[JonathanH]

suprised nothing was ever suggested for post 225 use for the 91's
from what ive heard they have quite a bit of free space in them due to the underslung transformer so prime for being some kind of testbed for bi-mode or battey operations

I thought some 91s got used for testing MML electrification, but there is only a limited role for such use, and they aren't the only available stock.

 

[D365]

from what ive heard they have quite a bit of free space in them due to the underslung transformer so prime for being some kind of testbed for bi-mode or battey operations

What’s the problem that needs to be solved by an adapted Class 91?

 

[35B]

What’s the problem that needs to be solved by an adapted Class 91?

...or a completely life expired, worn out, loco that needs a major overhaul to be much use?

 

[popeter45]

What’s the problem that needs to be solved by an adapted Class 91?

not saying there is a problem that they can be used for
more that as they prob will be scrapped soon, why not use them to test ideas that can be used for other locomotives

 

[43096]

not saying there is a problem that they can be used for
more that as they prob will be scrapped soon, why not use them to test ideas that can be used for other locomotives

What ideas were you thinking of that need testing?

 

[popeter45]

What ideas were you thinking of that need testing?

last mile battery or long distance Hydrogen spring too mind but i was more saying in general, not that i had anything specific

 

[43096]

last mile battery or long distance Hydrogen spring too mind but i was more saying in general, not that i had anything specific

Last mile battery is already being done on mainland Europe in locos, so it doesn't need a testbed. There won't be space for any meaningful hydrogen kit in a 91 - it takes up plenty of space.

 

[Coolzac]

I was unaware of the 225's operating for TFW. I think it's a great idea as it'll increase capacity and create a nice comfortable journey for what is a reasonably long distance. Clearly the narrator was happy and I think the public who use this route will be too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was unaware of the 225's operating for TFW. I think it's a great idea as it'll increase capacity and create a nice comfortable journey for what is a reasonably long distance. Clearly the narrator was happy and I think the public who use this route will be too!

They're old tat and they're falling to bits. On the TfW services you're as likely to end up with a 2 car DMU substituting, often a 150 or pair of 153s for added effect.

The only sensible thing for them is scrap (or preservation of a couple of vehicles). They are old and have been worked hard. As for TfW, they need to order new replacements of some kind.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They're old tat and they're falling to bits. On the TfW services you're as likely to end up with a 2 car DMU substituting, often a 150 or pair of 153s for added effect.

Indeed. And such subjective titles like ”Britain’s best train” really compromises the level of trust a viewer might have in getting a decent, balanced (unbiased) review too.

 

[87015]

They're old tat and they're falling to bits. On the TfW services you're as likely to end up with a 2 car DMU substituting, often a 150 or pair of 153s for added effect.

The only sensible thing for them is scrap (or preservation of a couple of vehicles). They are old and have been worked hard. As for TfW, they need to order new replacements of some kind.

How many days do they work less than 50% of services, with all of those only 2-car replacement then, to back up your point?

 

[DS25]

They're old tat and they're falling to bits. On the TfW services you're as likely to end up with a 2 car DMU substituting, often a 150 or pair of 153s for added effect.

The only sensible thing for them is scrap (or preservation of a couple of vehicles). They are old and have been worked hard. As for TfW, they need to order new replacements of some kind.

I think they are really good when they work, much better than the 197’s which I personally dislike.

 

[Coolzac]

I personally would much prefer to ride on a loco hauled train with a lot of space.

Are some of you saying that the reliability won't be great due to their age? Or the condition of the trains and carriages ing general is poor?

 

[CMS1]

Some could be used on Greater Anglia instead of using 3 bimode 755s coupled together for Intercity services which is an incredible waste of these new trains (and restricts trolley service, no 1st class etc etc). Move these to routes which need bi mode e.g. Norwich to Liverpool (and ridiculous that 2 car sets are being used through Ely and Castlefield corridor).

 

[SamCam]

Some could be used on Greater Anglia instead of using 3 bimode 755s coupled together for Intercity services which is an incredible waste of these new trains (and restricts trolley service, no 1st class etc etc). Move these to routes which need bi mode e.g. Norwich to Liverpool (and ridiculous that 2 car sets are being used through Ely and Castlefield corridor).

Not a bad idea, although I doubt GA will want an ageing microfleet like that. And Norwich-Liverpool is an EMR route so hardly relevant?

 

[Topological]

I was unaware of the 225's operating for TFW. I think it's a great idea as it'll increase capacity and create a nice comfortable journey for what is a reasonably long distance. Clearly the narrator was happy and I think the public who use this route will be too!

As a public who uses the route, they are crap. They are good for the ECML and anyone on the Marches who wants to think that they are on the ECML. Other than that TfW require 71% availability yet more days than not they cannot achieve it.

I get enthusiasts like them, and I get that a normal person making a journey between two stops on a day when the train works like them. But otherwise they are an anachronism that should be put out of their misery.

For those who do not like my opinion, I am entitled to it and will never change no matter how many times I travel on the Mk4s (most recently Sunday) or the 197s (most recently last night)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==

How many days do they work less than 50% of services, with all of those only 2-car replacement then, to back up your point?

Required availability is 71%

This year the 5 diagrams that need covering have been covered on less that 50% of the days. For this statistic the days impacted by storms and other infrastructure issues are taken out as those are not the Mk4s fault.

In that time, I think the days where 197 availability has dropped below 71% can be counted on one hand. Remember that some 197s are unavailable due to capacity constraints at Chester (another bad decision that constrains TfW). Crucially the number of cancellations because of unavailable 197s is much much lower because they can send a 2-car instead of a 5-car.

Do not forget as well that the split of half the South Wales to Manchester trains at Cardiff is to accomodate these anachronisms. The 67s cannot do a diagram that involves the full distance and so two terminating trains are added to Cardiff Central in the hours where there is a split. Anyone who travels through Cardiff will know how poorly set up for terminating trains in platforms 0-4 Cardiff Central is.

 

[35B]

So in other words the trains are fine to travel in but TfW have chosen unsuitable locomotives and aren’t on top of the maintenance to ensure availability.

I’d suggest that if TfW want to offer a premium service, they should sort that out rather than assume the 197s can provide a comparable environment.

 

[Topological]

So in other words the trains are fine to travel in but TfW have chosen unsuitable locomotives and aren’t on top of the maintenance to ensure availability.

I’d suggest that if TfW want to offer a premium service, they should sort that out rather than assume the 197s can provide a comparable environment.

That would solve many of the cancellations, and potentially the acceleration, but would not reduce the dwells. You would still have the DVT and door issues that cause cancellations.

Given that there are not going to be any new diesel locomotives, it does mean that the carriages are not much use either.

Others may know more about the condition of the carriages themselves. It may just be they need full refurbishment. The seats are done in some, but the bodies feel tired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're old and have been worked hard, and were in my view very much built down to a price. It's time to get rid.

 

[Coolzac]

As a public who uses the route, they are crap. They are good for the ECML and anyone on the Marches who wants to think that they are on the ECML. Other than that TfW require 71% availability yet more days than not they cannot achieve it.

I get enthusiasts like them, and I get that a normal person making a journey between two stops on a day when the train works like them. But otherwise they are an anachronism that should be put out of their misery.

For those who do not like my opinion, I am entitled to it and will never change no matter how many times I travel on the Mk4s (most recently Sunday) or the 197s (most recently last night)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==


Required availability is 71%

This year the 5 diagrams that need covering have been covered on less that 50% of the days. For this statistic the days impacted by storms and other infrastructure issues are taken out as those are not the Mk4s fault.

In that time, I think the days where 197 availability has dropped below 71% can be counted on one hand. Remember that some 197s are unavailable due to capacity constraints at Chester (another bad decision that constrains TfW). Crucially the number of cancellations because of unavailable 197s is much much lower because they can send a 2-car instead of a 5-car.

Do not forget as well that the split of half the South Wales to Manchester trains at Cardiff is to accomodate these anachronisms. The 67s cannot do a diagram that involves the full distance and so two terminating trains are added to Cardiff Central in the hours where there is a split. Anyone who travels through Cardiff will know how poorly set up for terminating trains in platforms 0-4 Cardiff Central is.

Fair enough! Absolutely understand that.

 

[William3000]

I’d love to see them on London King’s Cross to King’s Lynn services

 

[Coolzac]

It's a shame as I think this sort of train allocation is ideal for mid distance operations between large towns and cities, but obviously reliability needs to be important. If it's a route that someone does regularly they will be prefer an average DMU that turns up on time every day than a loco hauled service that is on the surface nicer but then is less reliable.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I was unaware of the 225's operating for TFW. I think it's a great idea as it'll increase capacity and create a nice comfortable journey for what is a reasonably long distance. Clearly the narrator was happy and I think the public who use this route will be too!

A particular international rail trip reviewer who seems to hate almost everything he travels on, making it remarkable that he loved these! I can't argue with the comfort and first class meal service both being unrivalled in the market right now. Rust or no rust...

 

[Transilien]

A particular international rail trip reviewer who seems to hate almost everything he travels on, making it remarkable that he loved these! I can't argue with the comfort and first class meal service both being unrivalled in the market right now. Rust or no rust...

I agree. A lot of his thumbnails seem like clickbait with how negative they are.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Indeed. And such subjective titles like ”Britain’s best train” really compromises the level of trust a viewer might have in getting a decent, balanced (unbiased) review too.

Hard to argue with his reviews of the Chiltern Mk 5s ("terrible"), 800s ("horrible") and 397s ("terrible") and 745s ("first good intercity trains for decades") not for the soundbites but his critical eye for detail and high standards in the content itself. He's a high quality vlogger, beyond the mandatory thumbnail sensational soundbites which are fine, just to be expected, and par for the course even from our resident YouTubers here!

 

[Topological]

It's a shame as I think this sort of train allocation is ideal for mid distance operations between large towns and cities, but obviously reliability needs to be important. If it's a route that someone does regularly they will be prefer an average DMU that turns up on time every day than a loco hauled service that is on the surface nicer but then is less reliable.

It is about the purpose of travel too.

The 197s have poor reliability too. However, the choice to use 3+2 means that we almost always get a train. On an hourly service, the choice of being an hour late or having a regional DMU is pretty easy for anyone who either wants to get home, or get to work without having to allow an extra hour.

I also wonder how many people genuinely care about the food. Yes some people buy it, but a lot lot more don't.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hard to argue with his reviews of the Chiltern Mk 5s ("terrible"), 800s ("horrible") and 397s ("terrible") and 745s ("first good intercity trains for decades")

It's all subjective though, so yes it is - for me. I think the 745 is little more than a commuter train, and I love a 397, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.