It’s comments like this that make me doubt some of the things you have said here. There are certainly no plans for this to happen, the legislation for GBR doesn’t allow it to. The UK government would effectively have to undevolve Wales’s railways which would be incredibly unpopular and a bad look for both Governments. It just isn’t going to happen.
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TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains
- Thread starter Bob Price
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Envoy
Established Member
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Perhaps they should not have gone for a system that has minor sections on road but kept the present separated system? If that were the case, they could have had similar to the Vancouver and Sydney Metros - where the trains run automatically without any drivers and save on the labour costs!
That is self-evident, but can you explain what exactly the differences are that mean that a concept that has worked perfectly well (I would go as far as saying brilliantly) in one country cannot work here. Whether the vehicles actually procured work or not is a different matter (though at this stage far more crucial!)
6opher
Member
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I don’t appreciate bs though. That’s the difference between us as like I said, there’s things I’ve read that I know are wrong. The difference is, I’m not stupid enough to post specifics on a public forum.
VR494
Member
Apologies you feel that way, you obviously know the same things, however are more concerned in reporting back to management. It really doesn’t matter to me whether they come out or not. The issues raised are real ones as you know.
The public have a right to know how their money is being wasted on these tram-trains and a project that’s already failing, combined with a political agenda to boost votes.
If you have issues with what’s been posted on here, maybe you should express some opinions on them to. Correct my incorrect assumptions, which came from actual experience and seeing things.
If I was a train driver though, the last place I’d want to be working right now is out of Taffs well depot, you’re a tram driver in waiting.
How they will do this to drivers:
- Reduce route knowledge to TAM only
- Remove unnecessary components from your competency that you no longer have booked work over
- At the end of your 3 year cycle only train you in rules specific to infrastructure you are going to operate over
- Inform ORR you no longer require a license for heavy rail as you do not need full license competence
- Guards will become onboard ticket inspectors
- Graduated introduction of line of sight elsewhere on the valleys increase capacity for a zero time table
It’s also privately owned infrastructure on the CVL, no need for heavy rail anymore on Rhymney line now Cwmbargoed is closed.
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Peter Sarf
Established Member
If true I can see TAM drivers taking jobs that are off the TfW network, lets face it there seems to always be a driver shortage jugging by the levels of rest day working and overtime in the rest of the UK. Will be up to TfW to replace them. If it is cheaper for wales then it is tempting.
But I am not convinced it will come to that.
VR494
Member
The tfw network is only the CVL, the rest of Wales people fail to realise it’s a a normal TOC on what will become GBR.
If there was an alternative company based out of Cardiff, offering something different, I’d imagine they’d have a mass exodus of qualified drivers looking for work elsewhere no doubt. Loads don’t want this door procedure, however there’s nothing they can do about it now.
Dai Corner
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TfW Rail includes the CVL as well as the rest of Wales, with some services extending into England. It won't become part of GBR (nor will ScotRail). That's only the English TOCs.
chargesmith
Member
Personally I've seen information I believe to be incorrect about the specification of the units (battery range, presence of air conditioning), information about the likely formations I believe to be wrong (likely 2 in formation for most heads of Valleys services and single formation for most Bay services) and also the planned frequency (says heads of Valleys will only get 2tph when it will eventually be 4tph).
I could be wrong on these things but I don't believe I am, which makes me doubt that all the information is correct.
However, I will say that they did say the units were having difficulty in testing in multiple running which was confirmed by the CEO in the article I shared further up the page, so some of the information they are sharing clearly is correct. I just doubt it all is.
WelshBluebird
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The Wales and Borders franchise is controlled by the Welsh Government and is a devolved concern and so shouldn't be affected by GBR as Westminster no longer control it.
The fact Network Rail own all of the infrastructure apart from the CVL and they will fall under GBR is immaterial to the ToC from an ownership point of view (of course it may well affect the services TfW can run over GBR infrastructure in the future etc).
VR494
Member
Now we’re back on topic of the 398’s the primary issue with them is unfortunately the range and the overheads. This is going to sadly reduce operating capacity on the network inline with the current timetable plan. The water ingress is due to the windows being replaced after delivery and a software update has been issued to kind of address the running in multiple.
The way they want them driven as well, carrying excessive speed into a platform and braking later to save time is not a good mix with the atmosphere in the valleys, which suffer exceptionally damp conditions regularly. Wheel flats are a common problem and the wheels are already less resilient due to them being adapted for on street conditions.
If you can get over the range issues, the depot is limited due to its design and the current signalling is still 2 aspect in some areas. 4 an hour cannot be achieved realistically without further improvement.
The PM has visited today and promised more funds, they need a remodel of Clare road gantry and the west side of Cardiff, to send them off onto the street to the Bay.
No one’s really saying anything bad, just the jigsaw doesn’t add up, and it’s become very expensive.
Are you suggesting they are going to stop running trains from the valleys into Cardiff Central? The chances of that are effectively nil, and the chances of them allowing the conversion of only certain platforms at Cardiff Central to line of sight running (And of course transfer ownership to TfW) are also pretty much none.
VR494
Member
TAM and 398’s will be heavily focused on Cardiff Bay as the main hub, with passengers changing at CDQ for trains to Cardiff Central.
The back of Cardiff Central as you can see will provide a light rail platform, providing funds and planning is approved this will be linked up to the city line via west junction.
However, they are looking at options with the Rhymney line to utilise 398 there too. This will most likely be around Coryton, Penarth and Caerphilly. A tram driver can still operate on heavy rail without a license as per sheifield setup, provided the infrastructure is limited to its features needed to be learned with a dispensary form the approved body. The signalling on the Rhymney line and city line will all be controlled from Taffs well and signals updated with the identity of CR.
Rhymney depot, Cardiff and Barry are not included in the TAM going forward and will be coming under CAR. There is further possibilities these depots will be joining C link on mainline and interworked with services to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale.
The trams are for the TAM, Treherbert is going to a totally huge hub on its own, combined with Taffs well depot there will be a split unfortunately.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also with the remodelling of Cardiff West and Queen Street to go, line of sight signals are a huge possibility in the future on the TAM.
The 398 will then use transfer areas between signals just to pass over Cardiff Central.
No one knows what the design is going to be like at Cardiff West, but I’d imagine the City line to the Bay will be huge part of cross rail.
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Falcon1200
Established Member
This is something I had not thought about; Is the policy really to be that routes operated by the tram-trains will have no, or very few, through trains to Cardiff Central? If so, that seems to me idiotic!
The stated service pattern is still that half the (12tph) services coming down from Pontypridd will serve the Bay, and half Central. There’s been no change to that since the project was announced.
The_Train
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I've basically given up on trying to track the activities of these things to the point that I didn't even have this one recorded as built and delivered. Anybody happen to know roughly when it arrived on the scene please?
I've no idea either, believe it arrived by road.
ExRes
Established Member
As I understand things it was used on 1X01, it failed around Melton Mowbray and was shoved onto the test track
Haven't TFW just agreed a 10 year deal to remain as it is? Can't see the WG given up Welsh rail from any part of the country. What's the evidence of your claims?
What are those changes?
Yet since Arriva days which hemorrhaged train crew, TFW since have attracted many train crew from other TOC's across the country because of DRI3 and various pay rises.
Sorry, that's complete rubbish and will never happen.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Thanks. Seems like it will be pot luck for passengers as to where in Cardiff their tram-train will actually go!
Dai Corner
Established Member
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Or change at or before Radyr and wait five minutes.
It was delivered straight from the factory to Old Dalby.It has never been to Taff Wells.I believe 398033 is the latest delivery to Taff Wells
I have 398032 as delivered by road direct from Portbury to Old Dalby w/e 08.11.25:
Quoted further down thread that 398033 has arrived - anyone have a date for this or is it quoted in error ?
The_Train
Established Member
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Thank you
Falcon1200
Established Member
I'm not sure everyone will see that necessity as a service improvement! Is there really, now or in the future, sufficient demand for Cardiff Bay to send son many (tram) trains there, instead of direct to Central?
The point is that the frequency from each TAM valley head to Central will be the same (2tph). There will be an additional 2tph that run to the Bay, and which also call at Queen St, which is probably more important than Central for travellers to and from the Valleys.
It's amazing how a doubling of frequency is being questioned as not being a service improvement.
So a doubling of frequency from each valley to the centre of Cardiff, and you're questioning whether or not it's a service improvement?
56xx
Member
Would be something to look forward to if the 2 tph to Central were Flirts and the 2 tph to the Bay were trams.
Daniel Boone
Member
Also important to remember that there will theoretically be a train every 5 minutes between Cardiff QS and Central, so there hopefully won't be much time wasted changing trains!
Not particularly relevant to the thread and I don't want to pull the thread back to this again but I wanted to add that I think the toilet facilities at Queen Street need to be juristically improved before the roll-out of the 398s, currently there are only toilets on platforms 4 and 3 with a disabled toilet near the steps leading to platform 5. There should at least be an additional toilet next to the disabled toilet in the foyer which would be accessible to anyone leaving or entering the station.
VR494
Member
Running 12 trains an hour to the heads of the valleys is going to be an issue under the current signal set up. It was no doubt thought of in an office to make a statement.
Some of the sections are still 2 aspect and the rest is 3. Some of these are very long in length too. It’s been said it’s not possible, but they’ll give it a go, it will have issues. They struggle now with the current situation to manage delays. There’s also going to be one signaller controlling all that from Taffs well!
When the original idea was brought about the range capacity of the 398’s was sadly overlooked. They are off the shelf to be run on pure OLE, just like you see in Manchester. They wanted battery power for only small sections off earthed wire under bridges.
Unfortunately the cost of even putting wires under bridges was not feasible so you ended up with the current setup. Combined with overlooked external factors such as the underground research facility in the Cathays area, where wires were not allowed to be used due to radiation interference.
So the main issue going forward is the city line loop, getting back to Llandaff with reality signal and passenger delays. So, the plan now is to focus them mainly towards the bay for now. What happens next, is like looking at a crystal ball.
In reality they need 756’s for the whole CVL, they are the only thing that can realistically work with the current system and should have ordered a fleet of 3 cars.
Yes, they would like more wires, and the issue being Network rail still own and run the section through Ninian Park etc. You can see where that is going. They won’t support it as it’s not in their jurisdiction to justify the cost.
There is a plan to have some more towards Cogan, pending funds, and this will allow 398’s to run to Penarth hopefully. Possibly off Treherbert terminators too.
756’s are sadly not going to be staying on the Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly line due to issues around door timing, and they cannot meet the enhanced timetable 30 seconds dwell time at stations. The doors are too slow.
Tfw wants to order more 398’s but currently doesn’t have anywhere to store them. So it’s looking at options and the Rhymney line may get them too in the future, displacing more flirts to mainline metro work.
They will provide a good traction for Cardiff to Bristol, running on full OLE to Patchway and then battery into Bristol. The 3 car 756/0 are capable of 75mph, which would match sprinter times. So it’s been proposed they move over to there.
The trains are here, the depot is ready at Taffs Well. It’s not the design they wanted, but it’s what they got due to land sale issues during construction. Operating the services out of there is going to be an issue and they already know that. The curve is too tight and requires very low speeds, and it’s been mentioned it takes 15 minutes per unit to come off.
The only issue preventing the game from starting is there are still changes needed realistically to infrastructure to deliver the service, unions still need to finalise bits and they don’t have a working unit to pilot with.
The tram-trains are proving to be a little difficult product to work with, and just keep throwing spanner’s in the works when they team thinks they are making progress. They then have to have work done and go back out to be checked it’s fixed again, then for it to break with something else the next week. It’s absolutely ridiculous now to be honest.
If I had to compare them to something it would be the GWR 769 programme. And we all know how that ended.
Keep watching, it’s going to be fun year for sure.
Some of the sections are still 2 aspect and the rest is 3. Some of these are very long in length too. It’s been said it’s not possible, but they’ll give it a go, it will have issues. They struggle now with the current situation to manage delays. There’s also going to be one signaller controlling all that from Taffs well!
When the original idea was brought about the range capacity of the 398’s was sadly overlooked. They are off the shelf to be run on pure OLE, just like you see in Manchester. They wanted battery power for only small sections off earthed wire under bridges.
Unfortunately the cost of even putting wires under bridges was not feasible so you ended up with the current setup. Combined with overlooked external factors such as the underground research facility in the Cathays area, where wires were not allowed to be used due to radiation interference.
So the main issue going forward is the city line loop, getting back to Llandaff with reality signal and passenger delays. So, the plan now is to focus them mainly towards the bay for now. What happens next, is like looking at a crystal ball.
In reality they need 756’s for the whole CVL, they are the only thing that can realistically work with the current system and should have ordered a fleet of 3 cars.
Yes, they would like more wires, and the issue being Network rail still own and run the section through Ninian Park etc. You can see where that is going. They won’t support it as it’s not in their jurisdiction to justify the cost.
There is a plan to have some more towards Cogan, pending funds, and this will allow 398’s to run to Penarth hopefully. Possibly off Treherbert terminators too.
756’s are sadly not going to be staying on the Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly line due to issues around door timing, and they cannot meet the enhanced timetable 30 seconds dwell time at stations. The doors are too slow.
Tfw wants to order more 398’s but currently doesn’t have anywhere to store them. So it’s looking at options and the Rhymney line may get them too in the future, displacing more flirts to mainline metro work.
They will provide a good traction for Cardiff to Bristol, running on full OLE to Patchway and then battery into Bristol. The 3 car 756/0 are capable of 75mph, which would match sprinter times. So it’s been proposed they move over to there.
The trains are here, the depot is ready at Taffs Well. It’s not the design they wanted, but it’s what they got due to land sale issues during construction. Operating the services out of there is going to be an issue and they already know that. The curve is too tight and requires very low speeds, and it’s been mentioned it takes 15 minutes per unit to come off.
The only issue preventing the game from starting is there are still changes needed realistically to infrastructure to deliver the service, unions still need to finalise bits and they don’t have a working unit to pilot with.
The tram-trains are proving to be a little difficult product to work with, and just keep throwing spanner’s in the works when they team thinks they are making progress. They then have to have work done and go back out to be checked it’s fixed again, then for it to break with something else the next week. It’s absolutely ridiculous now to be honest.
If I had to compare them to something it would be the GWR 769 programme. And we all know how that ended.
Keep watching, it’s going to be fun year for sure.
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pbrown2000
New Member
Can you expand on what you mean by this? Looking at yesterday (Thursday) as an example, the 756s ran a good service all day on this route, with the exception of one service which was terminated short at Heath High Level to recover service after a delay. This route is already at the enhanced timetable of 4 trains per hour, which doesn’t require 30 second dwells at all stations. And in any case 30 second dwells are frequently being achieved at stations where it is timetabled.