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Cross-country overcrowding: what could be done?

Bletchleyite

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The shame is that this aspect of the design wasn't properly checked out in the first place, as it compounds all of the other weaknesses. For XC, I agree that reducing seat density within the existing fleet would just exacerbate the existing overcrowding.

I'm actually surprised they didn't increase it. If they'd chosen a thin backed seat such as the ironing board, Sophia or the Kiel seat used in the 730/2 (which is a bit hard but OK) then they might have got an extra row in per coach, at the cost of having to do something with the reservation system, though I suppose that could have just involved making it an unreserved row and moving the displays down rather than replacing them.
 
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35B

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I'm actually surprised they didn't increase it. If they'd chosen a thin backed seat such as the ironing board, Sophia or the Kiel seat used in the 730/2 (which is a bit hard but OK) then they might have got an extra row in per coach, at the cost of having to do something with the reservation system, though I suppose that could have just involved making it an unreserved row and moving the displays down rather than replacing them.
Given the shambles that is EMR out of St Pancras right now, where the reservations are down because they don't know what trains to schedule for, perhaps XC should be congratulated for making a reasonable decision
 

Starmill

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But then if you did that to Voyagers you'd only get 58 seats per coach (per Avanti Coach D) and the overcrowding problem would be even worse than it is now.

It's a shame it was not seen as economic/necessary to replace the overhead racks with ones capable of taking a standard airline carryon bag, as aside from the useless overheads Voyagers don't have less luggage storage than a 5 car 80x, especially in the case of the converted shop area. Trouble is it would require rerouteing a load of electrics and air ducts and moving the reservation displays.
It's interesting that Westbahn actually sell that layout as an upgrade for just under €10 on the train. Seems cheeky to me as the only thing you actually get is a guaranteed table, you don't get any extra legroom or elbow space. You may have more comfort or ability to use the table space but that's pretty much no difference to their second class, as you only get personal space if the carriage is quiet. Real first in the conventional lower density layout is also offered for just under €35 upgrade which is more reasonable.
 

The exile

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It's interesting that Westbahn actually sell that layout as an upgrade for just under €10 on the train. Seems cheeky to me as the only thing you actually get is a guaranteed table, you don't get any extra legroom or elbow space. You may have more comfort or ability to use the table space but that's pretty much no difference to their second class, as you only get personal space if the carriage is quiet. Real first in the conventional lower density layout is also offered for just under €35 upgrade which is more reasonable.
Given the number of people you see making a beeline for bay of four seats with table, even when they are not in a group of 3 or 4, I’’m not surprised there’s a market for a supplement.
 

Bletchleyite

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Given the number of people you see making a beeline for bay of four seats with table, even when they are not in a group of 3 or 4, I’’m not surprised there’s a market for a supplement.

I am actually fairly surprised that Avanti never sold Coach D as Standard Premium (it's different from Pendolino SP, but it still has advantages over the regular Standard coaches). XC however probably need maximised capacity, so losing a vehicle on a "middle class" isn't workable.
 

Falcon1200

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Once you start putting airline seats in, the luggage capacity falls exponentially.

But as we know all too well, XC services are used for short distance trips as well as country-crossing holidaymakers! And I much prefer airline seats anyway, no strangers to have to avoid staring at, or worse, talking to.....
 

Bletchleyite

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In any case hardly anyone ever puts bags between seat backs. I have done it but you very rarely see anyone else do it.

Smaller bags fit under the seat in front on airline seats, though.
 

Starmill

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In any case hardly anyone ever puts bags between seat backs. I have done it but you very rarely see anyone else do it.

Smaller bags fit under the seat in front on airline seats, though.
The rows where seats are back to back on nearly all modern trains have the seats touching. With many seats so thin now this leaves barely any room. On say a 331 there's no more space between the seat backs than there is under the seat in front of you. So it's probably not a surprise almost nobody uses the spaces.
 

35B

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In any case hardly anyone ever puts bags between seat backs. I have done it but you very rarely see anyone else do it.

Smaller bags fit under the seat in front on airline seats, though.
They did when it was normal to expect the space to exist. Now it is so rare as not to be worth looking for. As for putting bags in the footspace, that is one of my pet hates - especially at table seats. At 6'6" and size 14 feet, that is just anti-social - as are airline seats.
 

Bletchleyite

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They did when it was normal to expect the space to exist. Now it is so rare as not to be worth looking for. As for putting bags in the footspace, that is one of my pet hates - especially at table seats. At 6'6" and size 14 feet, that is just anti-social - as are airline seats.

I'm tall and I prefer airline seats. I hate playing "kneesie" with other passengers.
 

35B

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I'm tall and I prefer airline seats. I hate playing "kneesie" with other passengers.
And I hate having my knees compressed by the seat in front! Which is an increasing risk as capacity gets prioritised over comfort and space.
 

mmh

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I am actually fairly surprised that Avanti never sold Coach D as Standard Premium (it's different from Pendolino SP, but it still has advantages over the regular Standard coaches).
They sold it as first class on some trains for a while. That's why it was reconfigured to be a "hybrid" coach, so they could do food service in it on the early morning Holyhead to Eustons when they stopped the Pendolino drags.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I am actually fairly surprised that Avanti never sold Coach D as Standard Premium (it's different from Pendolino SP, but it still has advantages over the regular Standard coaches). XC however probably need maximised capacity, so losing a vehicle on a "middle class" isn't workable.
Isn't a proposed "third class" one of the reasons that Voyagers have no space-saver toilets on board and instead have three large ones? I'm sure I recall a "Virgin Value" idea from back in the mists of time.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It is yes, it was going to be in the end coach and was to have been 3+2.
Replacing one (or two, if you go down the TPE route of putting all wheelchair space in first class and automatically upgrading standard tickets) of the toilets with a space-saver would have been a smart move as part of the mid-life refurb the units are getting. You'd have a few extra luggage stacks at least.
 

Russel

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Regarding XC submitting a business case for the remaining 221s, what sort of timescale should we expect for an answer as to weather it has been approved or not?
 

AndrewE

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Regarding XC submitting a business case for the remaining 221s, what sort of timescale should we expect for an answer as to weather it has been approved or not?
can XC do anything forward-looking, or is it just a "dead man walking?" If it can't (or won't) address the immediate issue of the waste of fuel and space of locked-out units on overcrowded trains, what on earth is the point of it spending management time on bidding for additional units it won't even be able to staff? I suppose the current contract rewards the company for "managing" things even if it doesn't bother transporting people, so it will provide a shareholder return and director bonuses for a different activity.

(What a stark contrast with the situation at LNR, which we are told are definitely resourcing up to run to Manchester Airport even though there is apparently no formal approval yet for the service to run!)
 

yorksrob

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Well, forced to go against my long standing policy and actually use XC.

Needless to say, four carriage packed Voyager.

This outfit really is a fiasco on wheels.
 

duffield

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Well, forced to go against my long standing policy and actually use XC.

Needless to say, four carriage packed Voyager.

Whoever in the department was responsible for getting rid of the HST's should be fired.
I would place ultimate responsibility for this on the transport minister and by extension the government of the day. They would have been responsible for the continuation of the general policy of effectively squeezing passengers off of XC by price and overcrowding rather than supplying adequate rolling stock. The HST withdrawal was part of this penny-pinching policy.

As far as I can determine this would place responsibility with Mark Harper under Rishi Sunak's government, who have both been "fired" already by the electorate.

So firing a hapless DfT civil servant for carrying out what was effectively government policy seems misdirected.
 

yorksrob

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I would place ultimate responsibility for this on the transport minister and by extension the government of the day. They would have been responsible for the continuation of the general policy of effectively squeezing passengers off of XC by price and overcrowding rather than supplying adequate rolling stock. The HST withdrawal was part of this penny-pinching policy.

As far as I can determine this would place responsibility with Mark Harper under Rishi Sunak's government.

I guess they already have been then.

London's had a quarter of a century to sort out this problem.
 

Halsebee

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A friend of mine travelled on the 0856 X Country train from Sheffield to West Country on Saturday 21st Feb. It was a double Voyager set, but one set was locked out of use until Birmingham NS, leading to gross overcrowding in the set in use. The reason given was lack of a 2nd guard. Several other passengers were saying that exactly the same issue occurred the previous Saturday with similar overcrowding. Obviously without a guard the 2nd set couldn't be used, but it seems the issue is probably a recurrent one, so couldn't X Country have anticipated it and rostered someone to cover it, and put passenger experience first?
My friend also asked about getting a refund for such an appalling travelling experience, to which I laughed and said no chance! ( The train was on time). But could there, or should there be some sort of appeal for recompense in such a situation? Would it help focus TOC's to have more robust roster of staff to prevent such issues recurring?
 

zwk500

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but it seems the issue is probably a recurrent one, so couldn't X Country have anticipated it and rostered someone to cover it, and put passenger experience first?
This presumes that XC had enough people available to roster 2 guards on one train without cancelling anything else.
 

DannyMich2018

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Regarding XC submitting a business case for the remaining 221s, what sort of timescale should we expect for an answer as to weather it has been approved or not?
Even if XC could swap these ex Avanti 221s with same number of 220s that would be still an increase in capacity less 4 car 220s around but wouldn't cost a lot or need more traincrew.
 

HC1998

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Im on a CrossCountry service from Reading to Newcastle and I’ve never been on a service that’s this full before. All 4 carriages are full and standing with no room for extra passengers to get on. We’ve only just passed York. This can’t continue surely?
 

duffield

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Im on a CrossCountry service from Reading to Newcastle and I’ve never been on a service that’s this full before. All 4 carriages are full and standing with no room for extra passengers to get on. We’ve only just passed York. This can’t continue surely?
It's "continued" for so many years so far, I guess actually it can. :(
 

AndrewE

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Im on a CrossCountry service from Reading to Newcastle and I’ve never been on a service that’s this full before. All 4 carriages are full and standing with no room for extra passengers to get on. We’ve only just passed York. This can’t continue surely?
I would expect it to continue as long as the Whitehall Fat- and not-so-fat-Controllers are insulated from any personal discomfort. If it had been a TOC serving a London route you can be sure it would be different.

If you are lucky enough to live in a constituency with a station "served" by XC you could bend your MP's ear about the disgraceful waste of public money running trains with potential passengers locked out of half the coaches, or just point out that it is a trunk route and hence critical to their strategy of modal shift and decarbonising transport - but people, are getting left behind on station platforms. Applying political pressure this way might just get democracy to work, especially if said MPs get the feeling that they might lose votes over this.

(Not living in a constituency with a station "served" by XC, my MP won't (isn't allowed to?) engage on the topic at all. I think directly lobbying the Minister responsible is also a waste of time.)
 

Energy

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I'm actually surprised they didn't increase it. If they'd chosen a thin backed seat such as the ironing board, Sophia or the Kiel seat used in the 730/2 (which is a bit hard but OK) then they might have got an extra row in per coach, at the cost of having to do something with the reservation system, though I suppose that could have just involved making it an unreserved row and moving the displays down rather than replacing them.
The seat Avanti & Lumo are using are comfortable with a thin back, so would be a good choice for a high-density voyager.

I'm undecided on reservations. I understand why infrequent, long-distance travellers want a reservation; but XC's heavy crowding & high turnover at intermediate stations, the operation doesn't suit reservations.
 

brad465

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Are there any examples in recent decades, besides the Elizabeth Line, where a very sizeable increase in capacity was provided to the network that in turn created a significant increase in passenger journeys, thus more revenue? XC feels like somewhere that has significant potential for this if the DfT could be persuaded to look long term at the issue, through a combination of increasing service frequency and the length of most services, including a more capacity-efficient fleet compared to Voyagers.
 

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