Can someone please help with a rail fine given to my daughter. Would like to know if any grounds to appeal.

[vikkitheviking]

Share your draft for the next appeal here before submitting it. People will help finesse it with appropriate’railway language’ designed to press the right buttons

Thank you so much

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2026 ==

They should, if you tell them about them. But I'd gather evidence of all of it first before submitting the next appeals.

The bit I have bolded should carry some weight with them.

Thank you

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2026 ==


Thank you

Have you shared your first stage appeal here already? If not might be worth doing for context in terms of help with next stage.
Obviously obscure anything you wish to keep confidential.
Also probably their rejection response.

 

[vikkitheviking]

This was the rejection response
I can't see how I can see what I originally wrote in my first appeal now, but at the time I didn't know what I do now so it was mainly focused on that she had errors when purchasing her ticket so bought one as soon as she could which was as soon as she boarded .I sent all the screenshots of her ticket etc and did mention her disabilities but only briefly. I didn't mention anything about ticket machines.

 

[Egg Centric]

This was the rejection response
I can't see how I can see what I originally wrote in my first appeal now, but at the time I didn't know what I do now so it was mainly focused on that she had errors when purchasing her ticket so bought one as soon as she could which was as soon as she boarded .I sent all the screenshots of her ticket etc and did mention her disabilities but only briefly. I didn't mention anything about ticket machines.

This has your surname in it, you may wish to remove it and resubmit.

 

[WesternLancer]

This was the rejection response
I can't see how I can see what I originally wrote in my first appeal now, but at the time I didn't know what I do now so it was mainly focused on that she had errors when purchasing her ticket so bought one as soon as she could which was as soon as she boarded .I sent all the screenshots of her ticket etc and did mention her disabilities but only briefly. I didn't mention anything about ticket machines.

Yes. Blank out your name and the ref number on that attachment.

Thanks for explaining the general content of your appeal.

Probably failed because contrary to what you might hope or expect you can’t appeal on the basis that it wasn’t reasonable or ‘fair’ to issue the penalty, but that the Penalty Fare wasn’t correctly issued (for whatever reason) in terms of the regulations that govern the PF scheme. Few people would of course know that.

 

[Trainman40083]

Strange thing. On the 7th February, the 13.21 did run.. I do wonder what makes trains show as cancelled, when they do run. Saw one case where the train was cancelled from London Euston, but started from Milton Keynes.

 

[Crithylum]

Strange thing. On the 7th February, the 13.21 did run.. I do wonder what makes trains show as cancelled, when they do run. Saw one case where the train was cancelled from London Euston, but started from Milton Keynes.

It did not stop at any of the stations in the screenshot

 

[AlterEgo]

you can’t appeal on the basis that it wasn’t reasonable or ‘fair’ to issue the penalty, but that the Penalty Fare wasn’t correctly issued (for whatever reason) in terms of the regulations that govern the PF scheme. Few people would of course know that.

Yes you can. The regulations specifically provide for this, with the compelling reasons clause, a catch-all.

 

[pedr]

I know that it’s implied in the various responses here, but in case it helps to understand the position train companies take and will take in this case unless it is clear to them that the passenger’s disability is such that it would be appropriate to cancel the penalty fare: the correct thing to do if there isn’t enough time to buy a ticket before boarding a train is to miss the train and catch a later one.

The combination of changes to plans due to cancellations and the frustrating functionality of ticket sales systems which don’t respond to late-running trains makes what happened here perfectly understandable, but the train companies can, if they choose, decide that those factors aren’t relevant and passengers should put up with a delay to their plans if they aren’t in fact able to get a ticket before getting on a train at a station with a ticket machine or ticket office.

This means that it is likely to only be an appeal which emphasises the particular barriers the passenger here encountered because of her disability which would have any chance of success.

But the issuing of this Penalty Fare doesn’t imply any kind of dishonesty, it doesn’t say that the passenger was trying to travel without paying, and it isn’t really making any moral judgement at all. To a ticket inspector it could appear quite straightforward: a ticket bought after boarding is not valid (because a recent change to the railway-passenger contract terms declares it so), and someone who doesn’t present a valid ticket when asked can be charged a Penalty Fare. Similar things happen to people whose phones run out of power or break, and people who lose paper tickets. So even if appeals aren’t successful it is worth considering in that context as an annoying and somewhat unfair consequence of an unfortunate event, but nothing more.

 

[Bigdurian]

Thankyou

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2026 ==


Hi my daughter has never used a ticket machine..doesn't know how ..with her autism I've taught her to buy one on her phone as she doesn't like communicating with people. She always purchase her ticket before the train on this occasion we had minutes from seeing that the train she was going to get was cancelled to her boarding the train . I do appreciate now she should have used the ticket machine but I don't even know where it is and she doesn't know how to use one so I just said as soon as u get on the train purchase a ticket from the conductor. She rang me minute later saying she has managed to be buy a ticket but it would only let her for the 2.21 so I assumed ok all done..she was fined at 12 43. Ten minutes after boarding and purchasing the ticket. I understand in hindsight she should have used ticket machine but as I say we had minutes from discovering her train was cancelled to getting her to this one and so I definitely wouldn't have time to find and teach her to use a ticket machine..

There's only one way to walk into Rugeley TV station from the street. It's quite clear where the ticket machine is. It's on the left before you walk onto the platform. You'd walk right past it, within a meter or so every time on entering the station

 

[vikkitheviking]

This has your surname in it, you may wish to remove it and resubmit.

Thanks I've just removed it as doesn't achieve much at this point anyway

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

Strange thing. On the 7th February, the 13.21 did run.. I do wonder what makes trains show as cancelled, when they do run. Saw one case where the train was cancelled from London Euston, but started from Milton Keynes.

That's very odd indeed and would have solved this whole issue as that's the train she wanted to get .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

I know that it’s implied in the various responses here, but in case it helps to understand the position train companies take and will take in this case unless it is clear to them that the passenger’s disability is such that it would be appropriate to cancel the penalty fare: the correct thing to do if there isn’t enough time to buy a ticket before boarding a train is to miss the train and catch a later one.

The combination of changes to plans due to cancellations and the frustrating functionality of ticket sales systems which don’t respond to late-running trains makes what happened here perfectly understandable, but the train companies can, if they choose, decide that those factors aren’t relevant and passengers should put up with a delay to their plans if they aren’t in fact able to get a ticket before getting on a train at a station with a ticket machine or ticket office.

This means that it is likely to only be an appeal which emphasises the particular barriers the passenger here encountered because of her disability which would have any chance of success.

But the issuing of this Penalty Fare doesn’t imply any kind of dishonesty, it doesn’t say that the passenger was trying to travel without paying, and it isn’t really making any moral judgement at all. To a ticket inspector it could appear quite straightforward: a ticket bought after boarding is not valid (because a recent change to the railway-passenger contract terms declares it so), and someone who doesn’t present a valid ticket when asked can be charged a Penalty Fare. Similar things happen to people whose phones run out of power or break, and people who lose paper tickets. So even if appeals aren’t successful it is worth considering in that context as an annoying and somewhat unfair consequence of an unfortunate event, but nothing more.

Hi, I appreciate what you have said, under the circumstances as I say my complaint is knowing that she did and I did what I thought was fair and just at the time and with the time we had. In general they want us to use more public transport but yet make things like this so costly that it puts honest people off. My daughter traveled again today on a train and was so worried about being fined again she sent me multiple screenshots of her ticket and kept ringing me to ask if it was ok. To be honest I just think there should be a case by case basis and as I say clearly there was no intention to travel without a ticket as this was purchased at what we deemed at the time as the first available opportunity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

There's only one way to walk into Rugeley TV station from the street. It's quite clear where the ticket machine is. It's on the left before you walk onto the platform. You'd walk right past it, within a meter or so every time on entering the station

My daughter could have something literally in her path or waved in her face but unless she knows what it is and has been taught how to use it she wouldn't pay attention to it. As I say she always buys tickets on her phone and has never ever had to use a ticket machine and so it's never been an issue before. I know it sounds silly but as I have stated I couldn't get out the car because there was no parking and she had to rush to make the train and at no point did it cross my mind or hers that there was a ticket machine .I just thought that as long as she bought a ticket problem solved. I've bought tickets on trains from Rugeley town to Birmingham before from conductors and never been an issue so I guess if you aren't made aware that now that is an issue then you wouldn't assume buying a ticket the second you board would be one.

 

[z444z]

What needs to happen next is an appeal on the grounds that there are compelling reasons why the penalty fare should be cancelled. This needs to focus on how your daughter’s disability affected her actions that lead to the penalty fare being issued, or that her disability means that a penalty fare is not an appropriate or proportionate way of dealing with the error she made, or both.

There’s no guarantee of success - there never is, even in clear cut cases, the appeals service sucks - but especially under compelling reasons it’s basically completely up to them whether they accept. All you can do is get it as good as possible, and you have two more rounds of appeal to go before you’re out of (practical) options.

If you draft an appeal we can help improve it.

Edit: the OP’s posts I was replying to have disappeared

 

[185]

There's only one way to walk into Rugeley TV station from the street. It's quite clear where the ticket machine is. It's on the left before you walk onto the platform. You'd walk right past it, within a meter or so every time on entering the station

It is - literally on the side of the (only) entrance gate. Unusually it takes coins and notes too, so the 'want to pay cash' reason is out.

 

[Bigdurian]

It is - literally on the side of the (only) entrance gate. Unusually it takes coins and notes too, so the 'want to pay cash' reason is out.

I have never seen the parking full there either. You basically park right by the entrance to drop people off. The only people who park park there are traveling.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have never seen the parking full there either. You basically park right by the entrance to drop people off. The only people who park park there are traveling.

I think this is beside the point. It wasn't the OP (in the car) who needed to buy the ticket: it was their daughter. And while the daughter has disabilities, until now they have been able to travel by themself. It doesn't seem to me to be a plausible argument to say 'we would expect you to take someone with you to buy a ticket when you have never had to do that before'.

 

[vikkitheviking]

I have never seen the parking full there either. You basically park right by the entrance to drop people off. The only people who park park there are traveling.

I can assure you it was that day, I have no reason to lie because in no way does it affect the fine. Every single spot was taken. I waited in front of the disabled spot while I watched her walk over but there wasn't any parking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

I think this is beside the point. It wasn't the OP (in the car) who needed to buy the ticket: it was their daughter. And while the daughter has disabilities, until now they have been able to travel by themself. It doesn't seem to me to be a plausible argument to say 'we would expect you to take someone with you to buy a ticket when you have never had to do that before'.

Yes thankyou, she has to go every week and as I say it has never been an issue before as she knows how to buy her phone ticket with her disabled Railcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

What needs to happen next is an appeal on the grounds that there are compelling reasons why the penalty fare should be cancelled. This needs to focus on how your daughter’s disability affected her actions that lead to the penalty fare being issued, or that her disability means that a penalty fare is not an appropriate or proportionate way of dealing with the error she made, or both.

There’s no guarantee of success - there never is, even in clear cut cases, the appeals service sucks - but especially under compelling reasons it’s basically completely up to them whether they accept. All you can do is get it as good as possible, and you have two more rounds of appeal to go before you’re out of (practical) options.

If you draft an appeal we can help improve it.

Edit: the OP’s posts I was replying to have disappeared

Thankyou, not sure what the missing post is but today I'm going to get out her letters and I'll draft a response. Thankyou.

 

[30907]

I too would hope that an appeal would be accepted on "compelling grounds."

For info: it's quite common (standard?) for apps/websites to apply a cut-off a few minutes before departure time, so that people don't run the risk of the purchase not going through before departure. The workaround is to buy for a later train, as you both now know, but this isn't publicised.

(Apps are typically a bit slower than ticket machines, as my daughter and I coincidentally discovered yesterday, but it's still a nuisance that there is no published workaround.)

 

[Elecman]

I have never seen the parking full there either. You basically park right by the entrance to drop people off. The only people who park park there are traveling.

I’ve seen it fully occupied many times including cars parked outside row private property

 

[MotCO]

A couple of points spring to mind, which may need to be covered off in your second appeal:

1. Your daughter purchased a ticket with (presumably - sorry I don't know for certain) a discount because she had a disability railcard. Did the ticket inspector not notice there was a disability discount, and therefore not realise that your daughter had a disability. I realise that your daughter could not easily communicate this to the inspector, but I would have hoped that some leniency would have been shown because of your daughter's disability.

2. Are you replying on behalf of your daughter, or are you drafting the letter for your daughter to sign? It may be better to do the former, and explain that you are responding on her behalf, and go on to explain why you are doing this. This may help illustrate the extent of your daughter's disability.

 

[furlong]

I'd be appealing stressing the disability (with a statement from yourself backed up with medical evidence), taking it as read that she couldn't use the machine so was entitled to buy on board under the company's accessibility policy. It's a known (and ridiculous) shortcoming of the apps that they won't sell tickets in the circumstances described (without offering any workaround) so nothing should be read into the delay in purchasing due to the need to discover a workaround. Instead of imposing a penalty, the inspector should have commended her for discovering and using this workaround!

Separately I'd be contacting the customer services, quoting the accessibility policy and attaching a copy of the appeal, pointing out that the correct fare was already paid despite the impediments and inviting them to intervene, cancel the penalty, and offer compensation for the unnecessary distress this has caused. Ask them to remind their inspectors of the need to make appropriate adjustments.

c) Ticketing and fares
We expect all customers to have a valid ticket or pass to travel before starting their
journey. However, if for reasons of inaccessibility you are unable to buy a ticket
at the station before your journey, you will be able to purchase a ticket either on
the train or upon arrival at your destination without penalty and with any eligible
discount applied.

The train company recognises schemes such as JAM cards https://www.jamcard.org/ so I would look into this (and if it seems sensible, mention you are doing so in your customer services letter).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2026 ==

I realise that your daughter could not easily communicate this to the inspector, but I would have hoped that some leniency would have been shown because of your daughter's disability.

Exactly - as soon as a disabled railcard is shown, the inspector has to proceed with extreme caution. Most wouldn't want to push a situation such as that described to a penalty as they could easily end up causing significant trouble for their employer and themselves. The fare's been paid. The apps have well-known problems selling tickets for delayed trains. Just accept the situation and move on!

 

[flashberry43]

Hi, seeking advice if I'm right to complain and appeal a rail fine for my daughter.
She was heading to Stafford from Rugeley Trent valley as she does every week. She always purchases a ticket and never fare dodges.
Anyway she had to be in Stafford by 2 and she rang me asking at 12.20 if I could drop her down the station as the 12.21 train was delayed but the next one was cancelled so shs could make that one and still be in Stafford on time .I got her to the station at 12.25 and train was delayed until 12.29

She purchased a later ticket there after

Don’t get me wrong; I agree an appeal should solve this but her disability doesn’t negate the simple fact:

She purchased a ticket after boarding.

Her disability doesn’t negate this happened as she bought a ticket post departure nor does it negate the argument she made the earlier train.

I’d appeal to common sense here and drop the reason for her having autism and ocd as the cause (it wasn’t) for her not buying a ticket before 12:25. In your own words:

She messaged you at 12:20 to take her to a 12:25 train that was delayed until 12:29.

Now that’s the harsh railway side of me out.

Has this happened before? Leniency ought to prevail

 

[bb21]

I'd be appealing stressing the disability (with a statement from yourself backed up with medical evidence), taking it as read that she couldn't use the machine so was entitled to buy on board under the company's accessibility policy. It's a known (and ridiculous) shortcoming of the apps that they won't sell tickets in the circumstances described (without offering any workaround) so nothing should be read into the delay in purchasing due to the need to discover a workaround. Instead of imposing a penalty, the inspector should have commended her for discovering and using this workaround!

Separately I'd be contacting the customer services, quoting the accessibility policy and attaching a copy of the appeal, pointing out that the correct fare was already paid despite the impediments and inviting them to intervene, cancel the penalty, and offer compensation for the unnecessary distress this has caused. Ask them to remind their inspectors of the need to make appropriate adjustments.



The train company recognises schemes such as JAM cards https://www.jamcard.org/ so I would look into this (and if it seems sensible, mention you are doing so in your customer services letter).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2026 ==


Exactly - as soon as a disabled railcard is shown, the inspector has to proceed with extreme caution. Most wouldn't want to push a situation such as that described to a penalty as they could easily end up causing significant trouble for their employer and themselves. The fare's been paid. The apps have well-known problems selling tickets for delayed trains. Just accept the situation and move on!

There is no ground to issue this Penalty Fare, and the RPI should have recognised this as soon as the Disabled Person's Railcard discount was recognised. Hidden disability is a well covered subject in any disability awareness training, and I struggle to believe there was no visible sign of her (admittedly quite severe) condition during the encounter which any competently trained RPI should have picked up on.

This thread is a perfect illutration how much unnecessary stress incorrectly issued Penalty Fares/Report for Prosecutions can cause the customer and their family, and could well be a final straw for a different person, leading to significant barrier for them in their future travels. Not only should suitable compensation be due on this occasion in my opinion, the RPI should be required to undertake refresher training/rebriefing in disability awareness and inclusion.

 

[MotCO]

Her disability doesn’t negate this happened as she bought a ticket post departure nor does it negate the argument she made the earlier train.

But her disability meant that she could not reasonably use a ticket machine or speak to a ticket office member of staff. So buying on line on the train was the first reasonable opportunity for her.

 

[Haywain]

But her disability meant that she could not reasonably use a ticket machine or speak to a ticket office member of staff. So buying on line on the train was the first reasonable opportunity for her.

Buying prior to boarding the train was a reasonable opportunity.

 

[furlong]

Buying prior to boarding the train was a reasonable opportunity.

You'd have thought so - but sadly the apps do not behave reasonably, as we all know:

On the way she tried purchasing a ticket on her phone as she always does but it said unable to purchase fare becuase time had passed for first train and second train was cancelled.

 

[Realfish]

Buying prior to boarding the train was a reasonable opportunity.

Was it? Because of disruption her plans had to change at the last minute. She arrived at the station with 4 minutes to spare (3.5' to doors closed). The ticket machine is located at the entrance to the station - at the southern end of Platform 3. The footbridge to platforms 2 and 1 is offset, located towards the northern end of the platform. I'm fit and active and I wouldn't be confident of making it up and over there. All things being equal the PF seems thoughtless.

 

[flashberry43]

Was it? Because of disruption her plans had to change at the last minute. She arrived at the station with 4 minutes to spare (3.5' to doors closed). The ticket machine is located at the entrance to the station - at the southern end of Platform 3. The footbridge to platforms 2 and 1 is offset, located towards the northern end of the platform. I'm fit and active and I wouldn't be confident of making it up and over there. All things being equal the PF seems thoughtless.

She arrived with 4 minutes to spare, yes, at 12:25 for a 12:25 train not knowing she had 4 minutes to spare.

Would 4 minutes have been enough?

Again my railway hat is on here.

Taking it off I think it’s an appeal on common sense. She tried to book a ticket before departure but the app wouldn’t allow it - disability or not - that’s the issue.

Now with the disability, is leaving 240 seconds, or in reality 180 seconds, enough time for the traveler to buy a ticket?

No, of course not.

Not sounding too harsh; but even without a disability that wouldn’t be possible hence the PF is right.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

She arrived with 4 minutes to spare, yes, at 12:25 for a 12:25 train not knowing she had 4 minutes to spare.

Would 4 minutes have been enough?

Again my railway hat is on here.

Taking it off I think it’s an appeal on common sense. She tried to book a ticket before departure but the app wouldn’t allow it - disability or not - that’s the issue.

Now with the disability, is leaving 240 seconds, or in reality 180 seconds, enough time for the traveler to buy a ticket?

No, of course not.

Not sounding too harsh; but even without a disability that wouldn’t be possible hence the PF is right.

But looking at the Ts&Cs (https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/):

2.7. You must buy the Tickets before boarding the train unless:

2.7.1. there was no ticket office at the station at which you began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets; or

2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.

In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.

Unless we take the 'ticket retailing facilities' to include the app on the OP's daughter's phone ( and as I understand it, it's generally this forum's view that phones don't count), then she was entitled, as a Disabled Person's Railcard holder, to buy on board or at her destination

 

[AlterEgo]

But looking at the Ts&Cs (https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/):



Unless we take the 'ticket retailing facilities' to include the app on the OP's daughter's phone ( and as I understand it, it's generally this forum's view that phones don't count), then she was entitled, as a Disabled Person's Railcard holder, to buy on board or at her destination

It hasn't been asserted that the ticket machine is inaccessible to the OP's daughter, only that she had not used one before.

 

[flashberry43]

But looking at the Ts&Cs (https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/):



Unless we take the 'ticket retailing facilities' to include the app on the OP's daughter's phone ( and as I understand it, it's generally this forum's view that phones don't count), then she was entitled, as a Disabled Person's Railcard holder, to buy on board or at her destination

And this is why I take my railway hat off.

The defence she should be able to book on the app is mute; the train had left when she arrived (per departure time).

It’s not because she’s autistic she couldn’t book. I couldn’t book even I wanted to.

But common sense here must prevail. They’re using their disability to get out of a fine so let them; there are too any arguments either way