Proposals to remove 15-minute Delay Repay

[father_jack]

One commuter’s experience of delays
Data from one annual season ticket's worth of commuting (Jan 25 - Jan 26).
111 commutes (outbound and return) Ely to King's Cross
56 outbound commutes delayed with a total cumulative delay of 533 minutes
37 return commutes delay with a total cumulative delay of 519 minutes. One of the returns was via sardine LNER to Peterborough and then sharing an Uber because it was unlikely multiple trains' worth of passengers would fit on the next EMR or XC.
A grand total of 17.5 hours of commuting delays.

How much delay repay do you think I got for this?

Probably not much unless you had significant dramas.

 

[The exile]

I want to know why a TOC requires my address or phone number to process these claims? What does my address or phone number have to do with processing the original claim? Of course I can understand address if someone wants vouchers (or cheque in Avantis case), but then request the address when the person confirms how they wish for reimbursement to be claimed. It feels like most TOCs are just data mining at this point with the personal details requested (none of which relevant to actually claiming) and at times trying to demand signing up for systems.

Anti money-laundering processes by any chance?

 

[SuspectUsual]

That'd be like Tesco asking for your address at self checkouts so they can get data to catch you if you happen to steal an item

No, it's like Tesco asking for your address when you get a refund for a sub-standard product. Which they absolutely do

 

[ChilliSauce]

Might be worth a thread in "Suggestions" about national railcards for everyone; certainly should be a thing under nationalisation.

Exactly ....no discrimination because of age or anything else .. Just make it simple: By adopting the Swiss model ... Anyone and everyone can if they wish buy a Railcard (bahn card) to then purchase discounted fares..

 

[Russel]

Well perhaps they could keep it if the same applies to buses and air transport, until then it's just unfair. Hopefully it gets binned off and save us all a fortune

If you go into a shop and buy something that isn't fit for purpose, you'd get a refund, why should train tickets be any different?

 

[yorkie]

I think 15min DR for short journeys with cheap fares is a waste of everyone's time. While a claim with a value of at least £5 for a delay of at least 20 mins seems reasonable, the idea of compensating someone 62.5p for a 15-minute delay does seem wasteful to me.

But it's a shame it's being completely abolished. The 30-min threshold is very much a cliff edge, and TOCs that don't do 15 min DR, e.g. LNER, seem to be desperate to claim that a genuine 30-min delay was actually 29 minutes and 45 seconds (or words to that effect) in order to get out of claims entirely.

I've got proof that the measures these companies use to measure delays are inaccurate, and underestimate the true length of delay; had LNER been required to pay based on a 15-min delay, I'd have at least got something back whenever they claimed my delay was "only" 29 minutes.

It's very annoying when you have a £60 ticket and are entitled to £30 back, only to be told by LNER and their ilk that you will get nothing because they are quibbling over a few seconds, but I have no interest in completing DR forms to claim a few pence based on a 15-min delay on a £5 ticket.

Move to all smart ticketing with gate and onboard scanning and auto delay repay will work fine.

You finish work at 17:00. The Thameslink core is suspended for an hour. Is it best for people to try to crowd the stations so they can tap in, or is it best to be productive and keep out of the way until the line has reopened?

 

[Howardh]

Exactly ....no discrimination because of age or anything else .. Just make it simple: By adopting the Swiss model ... Anyone and everyone can if they wish buy a Railcard (bahn card) to then purchase discounted fares..

Yes, I was looking up the Swiss model earlier this week. But aren't they more expensive than ours, even if those that climb mountains are disregarded? (!)

 

[WelshBluebird]

TBF, eyeballing that chart, looking at the TOCs involved I'd guess the majority of compensation is for quite significant delays.

Or just smaller delays on increasingly expensive tickets (looking at the DR15 numbers for say GWR and Avanti compared to the other ToCs).

 

[Tram203]

The chart linked by @tbtc in post #89, and referenced in numerous posts since, only appears to detail figures for specifically delay repay compensation which has been paid out to delayed passengers.

It would be interesting to see and / or know figures for other costs related to delays, e.g taxis and coaches to final destination stations due to the railway's all to frequent inability to run trains or its unwillingness to hold final connections of the day, and hotel and associated costs when it has no option but to tell passengers "you ain't getting home tonight".

Furthermore, one wonders what percentage of delay repay available is actually claimed for. Again, something the chart does not detail.

Studying the chart specifically for LNER and Avanti, and to some extent (as they also run a large number of shorter distance services) GWR, one thing seems abundantly clear - stopping the all to frequent meltdowns on the 3 main trunk routes would be a big win.

 

[Russel]

Delay Repay is quite a chunk of the subsidy that the railway gets - most recently £136,633,000 a year:

Maybe it could be used on infrastructure improvements and resilience works which would help remove the need for Delay Repay in the first place...

But it wont.

 

[Sonic1234]

LNER, Avanti and GWR's tickets are expensive enough that people will see it worth claiming delay repay.

The commuter TOCs pay out relatively little, even though they make up the majority of journeys (isn't it something like 20% of all rail journeys involve GTR?). I guess most don't see it as worth their while claiming back 50p on a delayed Oyster journey.

Also, the Intercity TOCs are mostly advance purchase so people travel on a delayed train to not have to book another 2 months in advance to get a decent price. Trains from London to Brighton delayed (mostly walk up tickets) - people go another time.

 

[mickey]

I think they should remember the reason DR was introduced in the first place… a public display of contrition when they delayed us, as a counter-balance to ever-increasing fares. If they don’t like the amounts, try having fewer delays.

So no, I don’t think any of it should be abolished. If anything it should be standardised at the 15/30/60/120 level. There currently isn’t a quid pro quo on offer that would make me change my mind on that.

I would, however, if necessary support a move to credit vouchers (or similar) for future journeys rather than cash in bank accounts, perhaps addressed as ’a discount on future journeys’ rather than ‘compensation’. It would have to be handled as some kind of account balance rather than the old RTVs that didn’t give change - but that shouldn’t be difficult now many/most tickets are bought online.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Yes, I was looking up the Swiss model earlier this week. But aren't they more expensive than ours, even if those that climb mountains are disregarded? (!)

Well the Swiss 50% card also covers all Trams and Trolley buses and postal bus etc . Add the factor of 50% discount and the fact that everything in Switzerland is EXPENSIVE . Then it might be a tad difficult to make a direct comparison. The key bit is: 1 card 1 person anyone can buy. If 2 people are tavelling together then thats 2 cards to buy ... 1 each ..

 

[MrJeeves]

I think 15min DR for short journeys with cheap fares is a waste of everyone's time. While a claim with a value of at least £5 for a delay of at least 20 mins seems reasonable, the idea of compensating someone 62.5p for a 15-minute delay does seem wasteful to me.

And if you are happy to not bother claiming your 62.5p, there will be someone out there (hello!) who will be more than happy to... While you might think it's a waste of time, I certainly wouldn't.

I've made 40 claims in the 15-29 minute bracket, totalling £101.72 in compensation, since December 2022. All I see when looking up those stats is an extra £100 in my pocket instead of in the DfT's!

It seems silly from the point of view of some parts of the railway which get an hourly or 2-hourly service, but in my turn-up-and-go-to-London area with 4tph* to London, that might be a 30 minute wait at the station if you've just missed one train and the next is cancelled, even if it's only actually a 15 minute delay in the eyes of the TOC.

*Technically 6tph from Burgess Hill, but two of those are tightly bunched together, so it's basically 4.

 

[Snow1964]

Maybe it could be used on infrastructure improvements and resilience works which would help remove the need for Delay Repay in the first place...

But it wont.

Or a few more standby crews or trains.

£136m is lot of money, but I wonder how much of that was indirect delays (delayed train was awaiting crews or stock delayed earlier), because there is negligible resilience to allow stepping up. Instead knock on delays.

Ironically if railways sold less advance tickets (or allowed people to travel on earlier delayed services), so still get to destination closer to time due, would be less delay repay. But they don't choose to do this.

 

[Falcon1200]

Delay Repay is quite a chunk of the subsidy that the railway gets - most recently £136,633,000 a year:

An interesting figure, thanks! Pity there is no breakdown of the causes, ie railway responsibility or external.

Maybe it could be used on infrastructure improvements and resilience works which would help remove the need for Delay Repay in the first place...

A good point, but I would still like to know for what proportion of the payments is the railway directly responsible, and question why payments should be made for external, and therefore unavoidable, events. Also, why competing transport modes are not held to the same standards of punctuality, reliability and compensation.

 

[Wallsendmag]

@sheff1 @Wallsendmag lives in a sarcastic rail management idealistic world that thinks all the things they are told at conferences and trade shows always work when he implements them. Contrast that to gates seemingly working but not clipping tickets or recording taps because all this dapper new software isn't supported by appropriate investment in hardware.

I take it that you aren't aware of the trials in Yorkshire and the East Midlands then?

 

[Sonic1234]

Also, why competing transport modes are not held to the same standards of punctuality, reliability and compensation.

Because rail is the only public transport the politically engaged middle classes consider. Rail has an image problem about reliability too.

Buses are the method of last resort. You're on the bus because you have no other option, maybe with the exception if you have a free pass. Worryingly, the standards of customer service from the railway shows they see themselves in the same bracket, where customer retention isn't important because you wouldn't be using us if you had options.

Coaches are for broke students who spent too much in the student union bar.

Any form of delay compensation for cars is impossible because it doesn't run to a timetable and there are so many variables. Should you be able to claim delay repay because your journey took longer because someone was doing 40mph on a 60mph road? From who? Maybe at that time, it was only safe to do 40mph etc......

 

[OscarH]

I take it that you aren't aware of the trials in Yorkshire and the East Midlands then?

Of course, a trial does mean the idea is well thought though, or the software is (or could on any world ever be) remotely secure from fraud compared to eTickets and an eTVD

 

[VT 390]

That I think raises a very Intresting point .. My example: The customer makes a journey from Gatwick to Leeds with a ticket split at Peterborough. The customer arrives Peterborough on-time and the journey to Leeds then continues on-time ..

However the service from Peterborough to Leeds is then delayed on route so arrives Leeds 31L .. So under the "new arrangements" the delay repay claim would be limited to only the Peterborough / Leeds sector of the journey, because that was the bit that was actually delayed on a ticket valid only between Peterborough and Leeds .

However had the punter simply bought a through ticket from Gatwick to Leeds and not bothered with this splitting the delay repay would of been calculated on the complete journey being undertaken.

It might be viewed that the correct approach is being taken going forwards where the customer chooses to buy split tickets ..

If this approach were taken it would need to be made clear at the time of purchase which tickets delay repay applied to as not all booking sites currently even make it clear you have been sold split tickets.

If delay repay rules were around split tickets were changed, I would be far more concerned with the rules around split tickets in general changing. It would be difficult to stop splits, where services have open calls, but if delay repay split rights were removed it would be easier to remove other rights with split tickets such as alternative transport if last services were missed.

 

[Richardr]

Of course trains and coaches [but not buses] are subject to the Consumer Rights Act. This includes:

• The provider must perform the service with reasonable care and skill.
• Information which is said or written is binding if you’ve relied on it.
• If the price is not agreed beforehand, the service must be provided for a reasonable price.
• Unless a particular timescale for performing the service is set out or agreed, the service must be carried out in a reasonable time.

Delay Repay is a way of complying with this legal obligation. Without that there would be scope for all sorts of claims under the act against the railway and it would be a mess. To get rid of delay repay would almost certainly require that act to be amended to exclude rail travel and would mean it was held to a somewhat lesser standard than most other services. Not sure that would be popular.

 

[Skymonster]

The day the railway doesn’t financially penalise me if I arrive at my departure station 15 minutes late for my Advance Fare journey is the day I cease to claim 15 minutes delay repay. Meanwhile I’ll carry on.

Of course any proposal to reduce delay repay entitlement will diminish the overall experience provided to passengers. It is also addressing the result of delays, not the symptom. Make the railways more punctual and delay repay compensation reduces, to the advantage of everyone travelling. We should be aspiring to the vaunted models of Switzerland and Japan, where the proportion of trains that run on time is greater - and not degrading Ts&Cs for those using our poorer service. But this proposal does smack of many things at the moment - ens***ification. This country seems to consistently aim to make things worse, not better.

IF “cost” needs to be reduced then I think that DR should be universally paid credit for future travel rather than as a refund, as it would keep the revenue within the system.

 

[Djgr]

Precisely

Of course trains and coaches [but not buses] are subject to the Consumer Rights Act. This includes:

• The provider must perform the service with reasonable care and skill.
• Information which is said or written is binding if you’ve relied on it.
• If the price is not agreed beforehand, the service must be provided for a reasonable price.
• Unless a particular timescale for performing the service is set out or agreed, the service must be carried out in a reasonable time.

Delay Repay is a way of complying with this legal obligation. Without that there would be scope for all sorts of claims under the act against the railway and it would be a mess. To get rid of delay repay would almost certainly require that act to be amended to exclude rail travel and would mean it was held to a somewhat lesser standard than most other services. Not sure that would be popular.

Precisely. Fundamental principle that businesses that fail to provide paid for goods or services must make amends

 

[SuspectUsual]

Of course, prior to renatiomalisation a government with the political will could make the deduction of all or a proportion of TOC-caused delay repay from their management fees part of the contract, so there would still be a financial incentive to operate on time

 

[AlterEgo]

But this proposal does smack of many things at the moment - ens***ification. This country seems to consistently aim to make things worse, not better.

The UK is probably the only country where people have the attitude of "it's crap, it's getting crapper, but you know what, I like living in crap."

It's really funny to see some transport enthusiasts here argue that passengers should have fewer rights than they already have. Oh yes please! I'd love fewer rights.

 

[whoosh]

With regards to buses not having compensation, and trains do:

A train is a system. A self contained system. And whilst there can be external factors that can delay trains, most factors are failings of the railway system itself. Therefore it's fair enough to apply some sort of 'delay repay'.

A bus can be delayed by factors within control of the bus company, but most delays will be out of their control - traffic; roadworks; road accidents; and maybe not so much these days, but even passengers not having their fare ready when boarding (even though they are regular passengers).
I don't think it's realistic for buses to have 'delay repay' as their circumstances are different.

 

[318266]

The UK is probably the only country where people have the attitude of "it's crap, it's getting crapper, but you know what, I like living in crap."

It's really funny to see some transport enthusiasts here argue that passengers should have fewer rights than they already have. Oh yes please! I'd love fewer rights.

As someone who frequently campaigns against the regressions of human rights in this country as of late, I fail to see how reducing the burden on the taxpayer by removing a fairly small proportion of eligibility for Delay Repay, which is most underclaimed and creates a large administrative burden - not to mention how it was effectively a voluntary scheme that a large proportion of TOCs never participated in, that hasn't even existed for a decade - compares in any manner.

I personally believe said spending would be much better suited elsewhere in the public sector, for example, general rail infrastructure improvements.

 

[Egg Centric]

The UK is probably the only country where people have the attitude of "it's crap, it's getting crapper, but you know what, I like living in crap."

It's really funny to see some transport enthusiasts here argue that passengers should have fewer rights than they already have. Oh yes please! I'd love fewer rights.

Part of the reason it's crap is paying for lots of stuff that doesn't matter much at the cost of stuff that does matter. I like @MrJeeves and don't want him to be delayed by 15 minutes but if he is I'd rather the 62.5 pence (probably closer to a pound with all the admin costs) went to eg the care system.

Transport enthusiasm doesn't really have anything to do with it one way or another.

 

[Adam Williams]

Of course, a trial does mean the idea is well thought though, or the software is (or could in any world ever be) remotely secure from fraud compared to eTickets and an eTVD

Have you learnt nothing from fares "utopia"!? A trial means it has already been determined to have been a success and must therefore be imminently rolled out across the network, of course.

 

[Skymonster]

If an amount equivalent to that which DR15 costs the industry [government] was genuinely used to increase the budget and improve the railway - and I don’t mean a budget set and then reduced by the amount abandoning DR15 would likely save - then I’d happily forego DR15. But we all know in our hearts it wouldn’t work like that: the government won’t increase rail spending and will take not paying DR15 as a saving for the treasury. It would then effectively end up funding madcap schemes such as windmills or immigrant hotels.