Avanti WC trains picking up at Watford Junction who decides

[neomilan]

After arriving at Watford Junction to find the usual sea of cancellations on LNWR / West Midlands trains, to my surprise Avanti services were authorised to stop and pick up passengers to drop off at Euston.

Usually, I just watch those Pendolinos fly past while I wait for the slow Lioness line train, so being able to hop on a fast service was a real treat.

It made me wonder—who actually makes the call to "unlock" these stops during disruption?

Also, with the move toward Great British Railways (GBR) and more government control, do we think this kind of flexibility will become the standard rather than a rare exception?

It seems like a no-brainer to use the available capacity when the local lines are struggling.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Is the example you've encountered an Avanti train that's been given an additional stop order, or one that would usually stop to "drop off only"?

 

[neomilan]

Is the example you've encountered an Avanti train that's been given an additional stop order, or one that would usually stop to "drop off only"?

Usually a drop off only.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Usually a drop off only.

Did they show up on the departure screens? I know they don't usually (as they aren't picking up).

 

[AlterEgo]

It made me wonder—who actually makes the call to "unlock" these stops during disruption?

Avanti WC Control.

 

[neomilan]

Did they show up on the departure screens? I know they don't usually (as they aren't picking up).

No they didn't but the announcer at the station was telling anyone waiting

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also, with the move toward Great British Railways (GBR) and more government control, do we think this kind of flexibility will become the standard rather than a rare exception?
It seems like a no-brainer to use the available capacity when the local lines are struggling.

There will probably be more coordination under GBR (and some adjacent TOCs will likely be merged anyway).
BR used to use pick up/drop off only on long-distance trains, certainly at Watford and also places like Stockport to/from Manchester.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The issue is picking up at Watford Junction during the morning peak.

Even in BR days it used to be a hit and miss, and only when the announcer in the box used to tell you to go over to 7 were you “allowed” to board an intercity into Euston.

Sectorisation changed that and it became harder to get the permission. That carried on in Virgin days - I think I got on a Pendo only twice in over a decade. We were usually forced to use the DC to get to Euston and the 313 was nearly always rammed on departure.

 

[Tilting007]

AWC Control due to an axle counter failure in Watford Tunnel.

LNR called a few additional 1YXX as Tring services were cancelled.

A simple control decision to move people.

 

[voyagerdude220]

AWC Control due to an axle counter failure in Watford Tunnel.

This was also done Saturday 7th because of the disruption caused by the overhead line issue.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Avanti WC control have you authorise it either due to they think it’s needed or at the request at another operator (WMT in this case) then the station staff at the station before Watford junction have to write a stop order with a copy going to the train manager and driver.

 

[Potteries 323]

In the 1970s all express trains that stopped at Watford, did so to pick up or set down only.

If you were at Euston, a Manchester service would not show a stop at Watford, but if you were 'in the know', you could use it. A "set down only" service that was stopping was advertised at Watford as "The next train at Platform 7 is the xx.xx from Manchester", not the" xx.xx to Euston"

Again, I have known when it was announced that you could use these trains. Whenever I used these trains the tickets had already been collected so you just walked through the unmanned barrier at Euston, so it encouraged non-ticket travel.

 

[Tilting007]

This was also done Saturday 7th because of the disruption caused by the overhead line issue.

Both incidents!
Issues in Kensal Green affecting the DF, and a tree on the them at Kings Langley…

 

[Facing Back]

Is there some form of physical bar on boarding a drop off only train? Or is it just that they dont appear on the screens?

 

[jfollows]

I was once on a London-Manchester evening service, first stop Wilmslow, on which some passenger’s friends boarded “because all trains stop at Watford”. Sadly, we were delayed by the special stop order at Rugby to let them off. Pre-Pendolino of course.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I was once on a London-Manchester evening service, first stop Wilmslow, on which some passenger’s friends boarded “because all trains stop at Watford”. Sadly, we were delayed by the special stop order at Rugby to let them off. Pre-Pendolino of course.

That reminds me of when Virgin used to run the 16:30 London Euston to Glasgow Central as only calling at Preston. It used to often get pax for other Stations joining and sometimes a Special Stop Order for Carlisle was issued.

(Whilst it's the passenger's responsibility to board the correct train, I don't see why it wasn't booked to stop at Carlisle given that line speed is only 20mph, so it wouldn't have made much difference time wise.)

 

[TransportHub]

The issue is picking up at Watford Junction during the morning peak.

Even in BR days it used to be a hit and miss, and only when the announcer in the box used to tell you to go over to 7 were you “allowed” to board an intercity into Euston.

Sectorisation changed that and it became harder to get the permission. That carried on in Virgin days - I think I got on a Pendo only twice in over a decade. We were usually forced to use the DC to get to Euston and the 313 was nearly always rammed on departure.

I imagine some of the reason for pick/drop off only is to make Oyster/contactless not valid on AWC trains, The AWC staff don't have anyway to check if cards have been tapped

 

[GordonT]

Do other countries have examples of the Watford-like "stops to set down/pick up only" practice?

 

[mmh]

I imagine some of the reason for pick/drop off only is to make Oyster/contactless not valid on AWC trains, The AWC staff don't have anyway to check if cards have been tapped

This way predates Oyster and contactless existing.

 

[zuriblue]

Do other countries have examples of the Watford-like "stops to set down/pick up only" practice?

The Zürich - Munich Eurocities are pick-up/ set down only at Zürich Flughafen. I think those are the only ones on the SBB.

 

[Trackman]

Is there some form of physical bar on boarding a drop off only train? Or is it just that they dont appear on the screens?

No, but they can deploy spies despatched in case someone boards (onboard staff if the TM has seen something iffy)

A drop-off dwell is not long at all. Seen it at 30/60 seconds. TM can see what doors are opening.

 

[cornishjohn]

Do other countries have examples of the Watford-like "stops to set down/pick up only" practice?

Yup.

DB Munich->Berlin has München-Pasing as pick up only, and
Berlin Südkreuz & Berlin Hbf both set down only (terminus is Berlin Gesundbrunnen)

 

[Potteries 323]

No, but they can deploy spies despatched in case someone boards (onboard staff if the TM has seen something iffy)

A drop-off dwell is not long at all. Seen it at 30/60 seconds. TM can see what doors are opening.

I cant see a problem joining a Pendolino at Watford if you have got a valid ticket for a journey from Watford to Euston.

 

[jfollows]

This way predates Oyster and contactless existing.

Since 1958 or earlier, my oldest working timetable covering the route being from 1958.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do other countries have examples of the Watford-like "stops to set down/pick up only" practice?

Poland effectively does it by not selling tickets on the long distance services for short journeys. Easier I guess if you have compulsory (or effectively compulsory) reservations.

 

[Starmill]

Do other countries have examples of the Watford-like "stops to set down/pick up only" practice?

There are quite a few in Sweden. SJ allow their use by long-term season ticket holders though, as in as the official word, not a "nod and a wink". It's really just a restriction on booking online and on making a seating reservation. If you use the stop you do so at your own risk.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Is there some form of physical bar on boarding a drop off only train? Or is it just that they dont appear on the screens?

I can't comment on Watford Junction specifically with regards to if set down only trains appear on the departure boards or not, but this is how they are shown at Stevenage for the LNER set down only services:



Picture shows a departure board screen at Stevenage station displaying an LNER service as 'Set Down Only - please do not board this train'.

The dispatch staff also make an announcement when these services arrive telling people not to board them.

I would assume it's done much the same for the AWC services at Watford Junction.

 

[physics34]

Does frustrate me when a lightly loaded AWC service pulls into WJ and the 6 or 7 punters on the freezing cold wet platform get told to not board the service, especially quiet times of the day or night...

 

[Potteries 323]

I imagine some of the reason for pick/drop off only is to make Oyster/contactless not valid on AWC trains, The AWC staff don't have anyway to check if cards have been tapped

Trains stopped at Watford to set down/pick up only in the 1970s before Oyster was even thought of so this cant be the reason.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I cant see a problem joining a Pendolino at Watford if you have got a valid ticket for a journey from Watford to Euston.

There have been reports on here a while ago of very "enthusiastic" Train Managers attempting to charge passengers joining London Euston bound Avanti trains at Watford Junction from the previous Station it officially picked up passengers from.