Northern’s low threshold for skipping stops?

[soraya49]

Even if the train was running, if it skipped your station and you arrived more than 15 or 30 minutes late because of the next train, you are entitled to a refund. Claim this by going to the Northern Railway website.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Even if the train was running, if it skipped your station and you arrived more than 15 or 30 minutes late because of the next train, you are entitled to a refund. Claim this by going to the Northern Railway website.

A refund would not be suitable in this situation, it would be delay repay.
A refund would be for if you returned to your origin and did not travel.

While they might sound like the same thing if you go seeking delay repay and ask for a refund you'd be sent to the wrong place.

 

[Falcon1200]

The North Clyde Line on Scotrail can be similar to this, and sometimes completely the opposite! I’ve seen Balloch trains turned back at Dumbarton Central less than 10 minutes late,

The Balloch branch is single track and there is minimal turnround time at the terminus, so if a train runs late through to Balloch it will return late, therefore delaying the next
train which will also return late, and so on. Why a 20 minute late train was not turned is another thing, perhaps subsequent services were cancelled or it was simply overlooked as Control was overwhelmed!

 

[Bow Fell]

I’m not sure lack of recovery and complex diagrams are entirely the problem. An example of this is the Wigan to Leeds via Atherton and Brighouse service, which often skips stations between Todmorden and Manchester, or stations between Salford and Wigan, despite having nearly an hour turnaround time at Wigan Wallgate. And the service is self contained, with 6 trains going back and forth all day.

To put this into context; There is one such Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service which is worked by a Wigan driver between Manchester Victoria and Wigan.

They are relieved at Wigan and then they are due to relieve the Southport service that’s 10 minutes behind and work it to Southport and back. If the Leeds to Wigan service is late, it simply has to be ahead of the Southport service at Crow Nest Junction, therefore is a prime target for service recovery, otherwise if the Southport service gets ahead it will be stood at Wigan Wallgate with it’s relief on the train behind! The units may have an hour turnaround but the crew on most of these certainly don’t, it’s very inefficient use of crew otherwise.

 

[amahy]

The Balloch branch is single track and there is minimal turnround time at the terminus, so if a train runs late through to Balloch it will return late, therefore delaying the next
train which will also return late, and so on. Why a 20 minute late train was not turned is another thing, perhaps subsequent services were cancelled or it was simply overlooked as Control was overwhelmed!

I agree that Balloch services should be kept on time for this exact reason, but turning back at Dumbarton Central is not the way to do it, in my opinion, as Renton, Alexandria, and Balloch are some of the least served stations on the entire North Clyde network, with 2tph Monday to Saturday. It would be more logical to skip stations between Dalmuir and Hyndland, or between Glasgow Queen Street LL and Airdrie, as all these stations have at least 4tph. I understand its much more difficult on a Sunday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2026 ==

To put this into context; There is one such Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service which is worked by a Wigan driver between Manchester Victoria and Wigan.

They are relieved at Wigan and then they are due to relieve the Southport service that’s 10 minutes behind and work it to Southport and back. If the Leeds to Wigan service is late, it simply has to be ahead of the Southport service at Crow Nest Junction, therefore is a prime target for service recovery, otherwise if the Southport service gets ahead it will be stood at Wigan Wallgate with it’s relief on the train behind! The units may have an hour turnaround but the crew on most of these certainly don’t, it’s very inefficient use of crew otherwise.

This makes it even more bizarre that Leeds to Southport has been ruled out as a service pairing due to tight turnarounds at Southport!

 

[Pinus contorta]

The airport is a headache when trains are late because the trains simply won't always fit into the platforms if they arrive and depart in the wrong sequence ( eg 3 car arrives before 6 car ) and then you have a rapidly evolving problem when the trains go back the other way to slade lane and dont slot into the castlfield corridor. It's not really that surprising that trains skip stop or terminate at Manchester Oxford Road or Manchester Pic if they are late.

 

[Falcon1200]

It would be more logical to skip stations between Dalmuir and Hyndland, or between Glasgow Queen Street LL and Airdrie, as all these stations have at least 4tph.

The problem there is that a late running train will conflict with other services and incur further delay to itself, delay other trains, or both! Turning one train short restores on-time running immediately.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

To put this into context; There is one such Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service which is worked by a Wigan driver between Manchester Victoria and Wigan.

They are relieved at Wigan and then they are due to relieve the Southport service that’s 10 minutes behind and work it to Southport and back. If the Leeds to Wigan service is late, it simply has to be ahead of the Southport service at Crow Nest Junction, therefore is a prime target for service recovery, otherwise if the Southport service gets ahead it will be stood at Wigan Wallgate with it’s relief on the train behind! The units may have an hour turnaround but the crew on most of these certainly don’t, it’s very inefficient use of crew otherwise.

Which makes me wonder why the Leeds to Southport service was cut back to Wigan in the first place. When it could and still should (in my opinion) continue to Southport, as we wouldn't have this skipping of stops on the level that it currently is.

Maybe Northern should look at converting the more quieter stations to request stop level? Walsden and Besscarr Lane are two examples.

 

[M60lad]

What happens in the situation though that the Southport service gets into Wigan ahead of the Leeds-Wigan Wallgate service considering the driver for the Southport service is driving the late running Leeds-Wigan service from Victoria which will now be stuck behind the train they should be driving?

Speaking of Crew from Wigan not to sure whether it still happens but I know that Wigan Conductors have some interesting duties whereby their first bit will be from Manchester or Liverpool and then they will travel "On the Cushions" up to Lancaster to do a turn to Barrow and back so this will be another reason of keeping trains on time.

There's also breaks to take into account as well so if staff come off one train late then obviously their will have to take off their next train late which will delay other services.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What happens in the situation though that the Southport service gets into Wigan ahead of the Leeds-Wigan Wallgate service considering the driver for the Southport service is driving the late running Leeds-Wigan service from Victoria which will now be stuck behind the train they should be driving?

Presumably in that situation the Southport would have to be cancelled and go into the sidings.

 

[308165]

Northern do this with Leeds - Skipton services a lot. At one level I can understand its as running fast Skipton - Leeds makes up enough time to get the unit in place for its next service, IF they can get a sensible path.

What is more irritating is when they tell all the passengers for intermediate stations to get off at Shipley (heading towards Skipton) and then send the train behind a Bradford - Skipton meaning it gets stuck behind that and might as well have called at the intermediate stations anyway! I've asked drivers about this and they say they have to follow controls dictation, however illogical it is.

 

[thealexweb]

This week the 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport only successfully made it to Burnage two out of five times. Poor.

The seven minute turnaround at the other end clearly needs more padding if Northern cannot manage it most of the time.

 

[amahy]

Which makes me wonder why the Leeds to Southport service was cut back to Wigan in the first place. When it could and still should (in my opinion) continue to Southport, as we wouldn't have this skipping of stops on the level that it currently is.

Maybe Northern should look at converting the more quieter stations to request stop level? Walsden and Besscarr Lane are two examples.

As a former 5-6 day a week user of Walsden, it is not quiet enough to justify request stop level. It was only a few times in 5 years of using the station that I was the only passenger boarding/alighting. However, I do agree with you on New Lane, Bescar Line, and Hoscar.

 

[Strathclyder]

The Balloch branch is single track and there is minimal turnround time at the terminus, so if a train runs late through to Balloch it will return late, therefore delaying the next
train which will also return late, and so on. Why a 20 minute late train was not turned is another thing, perhaps subsequent services were cancelled or it was simply overlooked as Control was overwhelmed!

The problem there is that a late running train will conflict with other services and incur further delay to itself, delay other trains, or both! Turning one train short restores on-time running immediately.

As a regular, long-time North Clyde/Argyle line user, this is partly why I've long believed that fully redoubling Dalreoch - Balloch (and Craigdendoran - Helensburgh for that matter) is something that should be done and that singling them has proven a fallacy in the long-term, regardless of any cost savings they may have brought. Yes, delays are inevitable and are a fact of railway life, but single-track bottlenecks do little to help when they do occur and only exacerbate/cause them to snowball out across the entire line.

 

[Bevan Price]

This week the 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport only successfully made it to Burnage two out of five times. Poor.

The seven minute turnaround at the other end clearly needs more padding if Northern cannot manage it most of the time.

The real problem is that "politics" demands theough Airport services from "here, there, and almost everywhere else", when the sensible service would be a shuttle service between the Airport & City Centre, which would be much less susceptible to delays originating remotely. .

 

[Starmill]

The service from Liverpool Lime Street is an especially bad performer on getting through Ordsall Lane Jn on time, and once it runs late after there it has almost no allowance or time at stations which can be recovered. Seven minutes is not sufficient turnaround time for a service which is run on the bare minimum like that.

However, there is no way it's going to be staying there for 67 minutes sat doing nothing and being in the way. The old service of one diagram doing Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport with a slower 319 was much better. However there is no bringing that back either as there's also nowhere else that the service from Liverpool could go. 6 car 323s can't operate the Liverpool service unless the rear three coaches is locked out of use, so inter-working with Blackpool North services also isn't an option.

Some stop changes may be more productive. These create negative press though as they're illogical to the customer and they remove through journey options.

 

[td97]

The xx18 departures originating from Blackpool North have 3½ minutes pathing allowance at Heald Green West Jn, surely that could be used to facilitate an additional call at a local station and remove 1 or 2 stops from the Liverpool - Airport?
Northbound, this may be trickier as the pathing allowance does not exist, but the Blackpool North could depart earlier?

 

[amahy]

However, there is no way it's going to be staying there for 67 minutes sat doing nothing and being in the way. The old service of one diagram doing Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport with a slower 319 was much better. However there is no bringing that back either as there's also nowhere else that the service from Liverpool could go. 6 car 323s can't operate the Liverpool service unless the rear three coaches is locked out of use, so inter-working with Blackpool North services also isn't an option.

Agreed. Around Manchester, there are many services that combine what should be two seperate services, with largely seperate passenger flows, into one, due to lack of terminating platforms and capacity constraints, including Manchester Airport to Liverpool (combines Liverpool to Manchester stopper and Airport to Manchester stopper). Other examples of this include Leeds to Wigan (Manchester to Leeds stopper with Manchester to Wigan via Atherton stopper), and Headbolt Lane to Blackburn. This creates all kinds of issues with punctuality and disruption, with lines that shouldn't have anything to do with each other causing disruption miles down the line.

 

[GordonT]

As a regular, long-time North Clyde/Argyle line user, this is partly why I've long believed that fully redoubling Dalreoch - Balloch (and Craigdendoran - Helensburgh for that matter) is something that should be done and that singling them has proven a fallacy in the long-term, regardless of any cost savings they may have brought. Yes, delays are inevitable and are a fact of railway life, but single-track bottlenecks do little to help when they do occur and only exacerbate/cause them to snowball out across the entire line.

Was the singling of these sections (and also part of the Milngavie branch?) enacted around the time of the establishment of the infamous "single-lead" junctions which sadly brought the suburbs of Bellgrove and Newton into unwanted prominence following collisions?

 

[father_jack]

I frequently notice a TOC who have a 20 late service for whatever reason (and they let it get later because of no intervention when the booby loops it for another TOC that has waiting time at the next stop) so they take stops out on the next working. But the traincrew and station staff and local ops people do a great job and it gets out mega quick but the removed stops aren't reinstated. So it gets to it's first "stop" and sits at a junction waiting time !!! Hasty controllers I say.

 

[TUC]

Any decision to skip stations should be made at the outset of a service, not during the journey. The latter creates significant difficulties for disabled passengers who are confident in their planned destination station being familiar and accessible, and so have not requested assistance, but suddenly find themselves expected to double back from an unfamiliar less/unaccessible station.

 

[VT 390]

Any decision to skip stations should be made at the outset of a service, not during the journey. The latter creates significant difficulties for disabled passengers who are confident in their planned destination station being familiar and accessible, and so have not requested assistance, but suddenly find themselves expected to double back from an unfamiliar less/unaccessible station.

I agree changing the calling pattern mid journey can cause difficulties but what if a significant delay occurs mid journey that was impossible to predict at the start of the service, especially for longer journeys.
The initial post example from LIV (Liverpool Lime Street) to MIA (Manchester Airport) is a good example of this as it departed LIV on time but picked up delays on route that would likely not have been known at the start of the journey.

 

[BG2024]

My journeys to Broad Green from Manchester will often skip stops, necessitating a change at Huyton.

On a good day, that change is a 2 minute connection to an ex-Wigan service, Northern's Delay Repay system doesn't believe that connection was possible, and I end up adding to my ever growing stack of comp tickets.

On a bad day, they'll send the ex-Wigan service first. Not only does that mean a lengthy wait for the next train, but it also means the now "fast" service is now unable to go any faster than it would if it did its regular stops, and everyone is inconvenienced for nothing.

 

[TUC]

I agree changing the calling pattern mid journey can cause difficulties but what if a significant delay occurs mid journey that was impossible to predict at the start of the service, especially for longer journeys.
The initial post example from LIV (Liverpool Lime Street) to MIA (Manchester Airport) is a good example of this as it departed LIV on time but picked up delays on route that would likely not have been known at the start of the journey.

The problem is that does not resolve what a disabled person in these circumstances is meant to do, especially if none of the on-train staff have done a walk-through to check if the skipping of stops is going to cause any particular difficulties for passengers for whom a solution needs to be found.

 

[VT 390]

The problem is that does not resolve what a disabled person in these circumstances is meant to do, especially if none of the on-train staff have done a walk-through to check if the skipping of stops is going to cause any particular difficulties for passengers for whom a solution needs to be found.

Surely a disabled passenger would (in almost all cases) have the same options as all other passengers of either alighting, with assistance is required, at the last station before skip stopping or remain on to until the next call made/terminus and continue back (on the same train if it is on a return working) to their intended station.
I do not see how these options would be much different to non disabled passengers as in almost all cases of skipping booked calls it will be the smaller (therefore often less accessible) stations skipped.
I agree this would not currently be applied in all situations and that some operators need greater staff/assistance present for some passengers with improvements required in how they manage with disabled passengers who may be on an amended service.
There does need to be better assistance offered, especially where booked assistance has been made, when late notice changes to a service are made. However, if overall skipping booked calls will end up benefiting more passengers through recovering from delays then the fact that a disabled passenger is on board should not be the primary consideration for selecting service changes (provided they are notified about what is happening equal to all other passengers).

 

[Urban Gateline]

Turnaround time whilst a factor is not the only one in making service decisions. Another key one is whether if the train continues to run as booked and has lost a path it will lose even more time. Also any crew or infrastructure risks that influence the decision, as well as a myriad of other factors.

Precisely! There are often crew changes at Staines on Reading services, if those crew arrive late at Staines and are due to take over another train in the UP direction that could cause knock on delays, as well as if they are due PNB (break) and as sometimes on the diagrams the PNB's are minimum length the company can get away with, that causes their next working to go late, which in the case of Staines is not great blocking the only line through the station waiting for crew to come back from PNB! So it's definitely not only the turnaround times that need to be considered.

 

[Parallel]

TfW seem to have very low thresholds for skipping stops on their Valleys routes.

Today, the 10:35 Barry Island to Rhymney was delayed by 11 minutes at Cardiff Central, and subsequently did not call at Heath High Level, Llanishen, Lisvane & Thornhill and Pengam (I suspect it missed Hengoed too despite what RTT says).

The 10:59 Caerphilly to Penarth was running 8 minutes late and had the Grangetown stop removed.

A round trip between Cardiff Bay and Cardiff Queen Street cancelled because the train arrived 5 minutes late on its inbound working.

The 11:05 Penarth to Coryton was stuck behind the Rhymney train, and running 7 minutes late, it was terminated at Heath Low Level and did not call at Birchgrove, Rhiwbina, Whitchurch or Coryton.

The 10:49 Barry Island to Bargoed was delayed by 6 minutes and also had stops at Heath High Level, Llanishen and Lisvane & Thornhill pulled out, which was frustrating for passengers who had alighted the previous service and had been told to board this train for these stations.

A number of Valleys services really look to have had their turnaround times slashed in recent years - taking out multiple stops or cancelling trains when services are running 5-6 minute late doesn't seem great from a passenger's perspective. Why couldn't the City Line train terminate at Rhiwbina or Whitchurch? At 7 minutes late, it should've had time to make it to those stations and turn around right time for the next journey. The train is also scheduled to have 5 minutes journey time between Whitchurch and Coryton, yet one minute in the other direction, so there is extra performance risk built into the timetable.

 

[Kite159]

TfW seem to have very low thresholds for skipping stops on their Valleys routes.

Today, the 10:35 Barry Island to Rhymney was delayed by 11 minutes at Cardiff Central, and subsequently did not call at Heath High Level, Llanishen, Lisvane & Thornhill and Pengam (I suspect it missed Hengoed too despite what RTT says).

The 10:59 Caerphilly to Penarth was running 8 minutes late and had the Grangetown stop removed.

A round trip between Cardiff Bay and Cardiff Queen Street cancelled because the train arrived 5 minutes late on its inbound working.

The 11:05 Penarth to Coryton was stuck behind the Rhymney train, and running 7 minutes late, it was terminated at Heath Low Level and did not call at Birchgrove, Rhiwbina, Whitchurch or Coryton.

The 10:49 Barry Island to Bargoed was delayed by 6 minutes and also had stops at Heath High Level, Llanishen and Lisvane & Thornhill pulled out, which was frustrating for passengers who had alighted the previous service and had been told to board this train for these stations.

A number of Valleys services really look to have had their turnaround times slashed in recent years - taking out multiple stops or cancelling trains when services are running 5-6 minute late doesn't seem great from a passenger's perspective. Why couldn't the City Line train terminate at Rhiwbina or Whitchurch? At 7 minutes late, it should've had time to make it to those stations and turn around right time for the next journey. The train is also scheduled to have 5 minutes journey time between Whitchurch and Coryton, yet one minute in the other direction, so there is extra performance risk built into the timetable.

Reminds me of late December when I was on a TfW service to Treherbert which was ~ 30 minutes late leaving Cardiff, calling all stops as booked to Pontypridd before running semi-fast to Treherbert, with the following service (also late) getting spun at one of the passing places.

The timetable linking Merthyr & Aberdare is great as importing delays between the lines,

 

[Mattplans]

It takes as little as 10 minutes before Southeastern slam the skip stopping button. It’s funny because on a good day your train is only 10 minutes late.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The real problem is that "politics" demands theough Airport services from "here, there, and almost everywhere else", when the sensible service would be a shuttle service between the Airport & City Centre, which would be much less susceptible to delays originating remotely. .

In principle that is true - a frequent shuttle with good connections at Manchester Piccadilly ought to work well. I think the problem though is, what would you then do with all the trains along the Castlefield Corridor. They need somewhere to terminate and realistically Manchester Airport is probably the place that produces the least conflicts with other lines. So from a perspective of reducing pathing conflicts and avoiding knock-on delays impacting other lines, perhaps the solution is to send ALL Castlefield Corridor trains (and nothing else) to Manchester Airport

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2026 ==

SWR's threshold seems to be considerably less than nine minutes - and often to no avail as they still have to join the procession of stoppers closer to Waterloo, so fail to make up any time.

And I think this is really the problem. Skip-stopping is understandable and arguably often sensible if it's done just enough to get a train back on time. But if you skip stops to the point where a train actually ends up running early then that is just causing pointless disruption to passengers for no good reason.