Hey 1984 or what ??? :eek:
Not really. You chose to reveal your dates & times of travel. You may now claim the dates were fictional, but only you know that.
I'm travelling on Virgin Trains - what does it say about them ?
The text quoted applies to all operators, obviously you can ignore any text that is specific to SWT (though SWT can claim what they want; a PF is
not appropriate and I am told that the Eastleigh couple successfully appealed their PF).
Thanks Max - I am not attempting to defraud anyone of any revenue.
There is no suggestion that you are (or at least there wasn't at the stage you posted that).
If I elected to got to court and explained the circumstances ie that I got off a train one stop earlier than I had paid for and completed my journey on another train with a valid ticket I'm sure common sense would prevail.
In the highly unlikely event of an Unpaid Fare Notice being issued, if you refused to pay it, then in theory Virgin could prosecute. I would hope a court would apply "common sense" but I am not sure. I'd love to see it tested though!
Has this Megatrain break of journey clause in these circumstances ever been tested in court ? - seems like an unfair term to me.
Not that I am aware of. I am aware of occasions where people have finished or started short and refused to pay the excess on East Coast, but EC chose not to prosecute and cancelled the UPFN, EC obviously did not want to take it to court. I am also aware of the SWT Megatrain case where SWT RPIs issued a Penalty Fare. Many people said at the time this was incorrect and I later was informed by a member of SWT staff that the appeal for the PF was successful.
I appreciate your advice and I did ask if it would be a problem (seems more in peoples minds than in reality in the circumstances )
I am unsure what you meant by "a problem"; clearly you knew it was unenforceable and you have already decided that a court would agree it is unfair. I am not disagreeing with that analysis but it is a bold prediction and I am not as confident as you. The other risk is that, having told Virgin Trains employees on this forum that you intend to break the terms & conditions, they might - just might - take action. Of course if your times & dates are not accurate then such action would fail.
I don't think "common sense" would prevail
To be honest I've asked guards about this, and the general consensus appears to be that guards do not mind passengers finishing short, and that they do apply "common sense". Of course we have no idea who will be allocated the duty of the train in question on the date the OP is travelling and it is the guard at the time who decides, and what other guards would do goes out of the window.
giving that the terms and conditions of the ticket are made easily available and you would be travelling without a valid ticket under either the Railway Byelaws or the Regulation of Railways Act and you would be liable for the unpaid fare (as you did not have a valid ticket) and a fine.
I disagree. It's a breach of a small-print T&C, and The Manual instructs staff to charge an excess of the difference between the fare paid and the "appropriate" single fare that would have allowed break of journey.
I believe the only prospect of the OP receiving a fine, is if the OP is caught finishing short (unlikely), and asked to pay an excess (unlikely) and then the OP refuses to pay (up to the OP) and if the TOC then chose to prosecute for failure to pay the excess (also unlikely, the 2 cases I am aware of on EC were dropped and not prosecuted, though this is with Virgin and am unsure if they would prosecute), and if the court then found the OP guilty and levied a fine.
I do not see the sense of the people in this thread trying to stop you - if you want to do this by all means go and do it - it isn't our problem. We're just telling you that is isn't allowed and you will be liable to pay the full fare from Edinburgh to Wolverhampton if caught. Whether you'll be caught or not is another issue.
Andrew
Not quite...
"Charge the difference between the fare paid and
the appropriate Single fare for the overall journey
being made that allows break of journey."
For this journey, the full fare and the appropriate fare are the same. That is highly unusual (e.g. for Edinburgh to Preston, the
appropriate fare would be £32.90 and the
full fare would be £53.00). Also an excess should be charged, not a new ticket, though in the case of Megatrain (again which is unusual) the fare is so low (£1) that there's negligible difference between the two.
Nevertheless it is important that this difference is made clear, because for someone paying £22 for an Advance to
Preston on the same train, if they got off one stop early, the correct charge would only be £10.90.
Many Virgin TMs are very reasonable. Ask the new TM after Preston if they're happy for you to alight at Wolves onto the Euston Pendo. If they say yes, consider yourslef fortunate. If not, then get the 23:09 back from New St. As others have pointed out, don't disembark at Wolves without asking. .
That is good advice, but I would ask the OP to bear in mind that if the TM does say "yes" then please do not report that fact, as it is quite possible that Virgin may be unhappy at that outcome and speak to the guard.
If a guard shows discretion, I always thank them but I do not make it public, because it could get them into trouble (depending on the company they work for), and if staff are being helpful to passengers that is something I cannot accept.
It's quite simple really - you say...<removed>.
I don't think we should be encouraging people to make things up. If a hoax claim was made along these lines, then I think we could potentially be looking at a criminal case at that stage, rather than the normal action of asking the customer to pay the difference up to the "appropriate" fare.
I can't see how the OP could get caught. .
Neither can I, and neither can the OP, so I can only assume the OP was asking hypothetically, and what would happen if he was caught, so we have answered along those lines.
People are suggesting and providing examples of OBTAINING SERVICES BY DECEPTION, aka Fraud.
I have removed the post in question, if you spot anything like that again, report it using the report button (bottom left of every post).
I also can't see any reasonable way that any restriction would possibly be enforced....
Agreed.
The point about 'unfair terms in consumer contracts' etc. is that onerous restrictions should be pointed out to consumers and not hidden in the small print.
Indeed, this term is what I would consider unfair, and it is hidden in small print. Whether a court would agree remains untested.
Ticking that box can be legally binding. Same as applying for a loan online, courts now accept that ticking that box means the customer accepts liability for ensuring they meet the T+Cs they tick to agree with.
Unfair terms are not binding even if you have to tick a box agreeing to them!
The Foxtons judgement was to ensure that customers did not face surprising or unexpected terms.
I don't think it is a surprising or unexpected term that you have to travel on the booked service throughout.
You can word it how you like. If the OP paid £1, and the cheapest single is the SOS at £99.50, then I think it
would be surprising to be asked to pay £98.50 to leave a train one stop early.
Sounds like youv'e done it for me
I
hope the rolling of eyes was aimed at the person who wrote that suggestion, it is not something I'd encourage and could land you in further trouble.
It has been tested on EC, the result is either being let off, or having the UPFN cancelled. EC won't take these cases to court. Now, I'd expect the outcome to be similar with Virgin but the OP knows it is a risk and that the terms (which may be considered unfair but are untested in court) do allow for a charge of £98.50 to be made. If the OP refuses to pay, then it is unknown what Virgin would do, though if I was asked to place a bet, I know what my money would be on.
