CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Jez]

How many times has the date been pushed back though?

I believe in 2023 they expected the Cambrian to switch to 197s in Mid to Late 2024. This was then put back to December 2025 timetable change and we are still waiting!

 

[tfw756rider]

I believe in 2023 they expected the Cambrian to switch to 197s in Mid to Late 2024. This was then put back to December 2025 timetable change and we are still waiting!

Should actually be in September 2026 though, now that there has actually been some driver training and there will be much more.

 

[Russel]

I believe in 2023 they expected the Cambrian to switch to 197s in Mid to Late 2024. This was then put back to December 2025 timetable change and we are still waiting!

Bad, but pretty standard now though I guess, just look at the new DLR stock, 701s, 730/2s etc.

Should actually be in September 2026 though, now that there has actually been some driver training and there will be much more.

I admire your optimism.

 

[sd0733]

How many times has the date been pushed back though?

As it stands, even if it had been possible, there was little point in racing through and getting them out just to cripple the mainline fleet of 197s which the ERTMS sets are currently filling in for numerous broken ones as well as those covering for 231s in South Wales.
The last unit isnt (or wasnt last time i heard) expected until July then it will have it mileage accumulation and acceptance.
The nature of the Cambrian means that there needs to be lots of diagrams put in place from day 1 with the amount of splitting and joining.

 

[tfw756rider]

I admire your optimism.

Well surely it can't be any later! 5 more months of driver training from April to August, theoretically.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2026 ==

The last unit isnt (or wasnt last time i heard) expected until July

Ah, 197041 will finally appear by July? Going to be quite a significant unit that - the only "2026" 197, the only "2026" pure diesel multiple unit / DMU, and the last "traditional / conventional" (in want of better words) 2-car DMU, which started with the 2-car first-generation DMUs over 60 years ago in the 1960s.

 

[Cambrian359]

As it stands, even if it had been possible, there was little point in racing through and getting them out just to cripple the mainline fleet of 197s which the ERTMS sets are currently filling in for numerous broken ones as well as those covering for 231s in South Wales.
The last unit isnt (or wasnt last time i heard) expected until July then it will have it mileage accumulation and acceptance.
The nature of the Cambrian means that there needs to be lots of diagrams put in place from day 1 with the amount of splitting and joining.

Back in 2018 on these very forums I said Cambrian 197 units would end up propping up other parts of the network (be it stock shortages,events or weather) with nothing able to help out on the Cambrian due to its unique signalling meaning it’s basically a lose lose for Cambrian users whenever there’s problems anywhere on the network.
But to be fair I did expect them to enter service on Cambrian line before being borrowed elsewhere……looks like I was wrong on that bit
Lucky we still have 158s!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah, 197041 will finally appear by July? Going to be quite a significant unit that - the only "2026" 197, the only "2026" pure diesel multiple unit / DMU, and the last "traditional / conventional" (in want of better words) 2-car DMU, which started with the 2-car first-generation DMUs over 60 years ago in the 1960s.

I am trying to remember how long it was after 197039 that 197040 emerged from the CAF factory. It seemed an age. I suspect 197041 won't be quicker than that.

 

[tfw756rider]

Back in 2018 on these very forums I said Cambrian 197 units would end up propping up other parts of the network (be it stock shortages,events or weather) with nothing able to help out on the Cambrian due to its unique signalling

Just out of curiosity, which other thread did you say that in? (as 2018, though the year of the order, predates the start of this thread in 2019)

 

[XFeed]

How many times has the date been pushed back though?

My understanding is that the optimistic initial date was then pretty quickly amended to September 26 and the planning revolves around this.

 

[tfw756rider]

I am trying to remember how long it was after 197039 that 197040 emerged from the CAF factory. It seemed an age. I suspect 197041 won't be quicker than that.

197039 left the factory in September 2025 and 197040 left the factory in November 2025, so about two months between them.

By that logic, 197041 would've left the factory by now (February 2026), but apparently, as long as it leaves the factory by July (!) 2026 (so up to eight months after 197040), that's fine?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2026 ==

My understanding is that the optimistic initial date was then pretty quickly amended to September 26 and the planning revolves around this.

Oh, they were doing that thing where they said 2022, then 2023, then 2024, then 2025, then September 2026, rather than just saying September 2026 from the start?

This has been revealed over in the 398 thread as well for those (..., currently "Spring 2026", then they'll say "late 2026", then "early 2027", rather than just saying "early 2027" upfront).

 

[Cambrian359]

Just out of curiosity, which other thread did you say that in? (as 2018, though the year of the order, predates the start of this thread in 2019)

There have been a number of other threads, this one discussing them back in 2018 and post 921 from this link I made a comment -

Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

Hi all, Not sure if there's a thread already discussing this, and if there is my apologies, but recently Keolis Amey was awarded the Wales & Borders franchise and I'm sure the promise of new trains was one of them. I'm wondering whether they'll order brand new trains or obtain already existing...

www.railforums.co.uk

Post 57 of this current thread I also made a comment and have probably made similar comments elsewhere.

 

[tfw756rider]

There have been a number of other threads, this one discussing them back in 2018 and post 921 from this link I made a comment -

Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

Hi all, Not sure if there's a thread already discussing this, and if there is my apologies, but recently Keolis Amey was awarded the Wales & Borders franchise and I'm sure the promise of new trains was one of them. I'm wondering whether they'll order brand new trains or obtain already existing...

www.railforums.co.uk

Post 57 of this current thread I also made a comment and have probably made similar comments elsewhere.

Many thanks - wow, that thread brings back memories!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197039 left the factory in September 2025 and 197040 left the factory in November 2025, so about two months between them.

By that logic, 197041 would've left the factory by now (February 2026), but apparently, as long as it leaves the factory by July (!) 2026 (so up to eight months after 197040), that's fine?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2026 ==


Oh, they were doing that thing where they said 2022, then 2023, then 2024, then 2025, then September 2026, rather than just saying September 2026 from the start?

This has been revealed over in the 398 thread as well for those (..., currently "Spring 2026", then they'll say "late 2026", then "early 2027", rather than just saying "early 2027" upfront).

Is 197041 still at the factory then?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is 197041 still at the factory then?

Seems 197041 is yet to emerge from the factory, until you see it at Donnington (please).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Seems 197041 is yet to emerge from the factory, until you see it at Donnington (please).

When it's a Donnington (whenever that is) I'll get some photos.

 

[Peter Sarf]

When it's a Donnington (whenever that is) I'll get some photos.

Thanks.

 

[Jez]

There have been a number of other threads, this one discussing them back in 2018 and post 921 from this link I made a comment -

Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

Hi all, Not sure if there's a thread already discussing this, and if there is my apologies, but recently Keolis Amey was awarded the Wales & Borders franchise and I'm sure the promise of new trains was one of them. I'm wondering whether they'll order brand new trains or obtain already existing...

www.railforums.co.uk

Post 57 of this current thread I also made a comment and have probably made similar comments elsewhere.

Reading some of the posts in that thread just highlights how much has changed since 2018! It said the 197s were supposed to start on the North Wales/South Wales to Manchesters as well as Cambrian all in 2022! They did indeed make a start in North Wales in Late 2022 but 4 years late for the Cambrian!

Mind you, it also said 170s would be doing the Heart of Wales from 2022!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

Seems 197041 is yet to emerge from the factory, until you see it at Donnington (please).

Seems to be taking ages for the remaining 197s to be put into passenger service. I think there are 7 out of 77 that have not yet been in service?

 

[sd0733]

Seems to be taking ages for the remaining 197s to be put into passenger service. I think there are 7 out of 77 that have not yet been in service?

Correct and AFAIK none of those 7 are even accepted yet, certainly none show in TfW systems.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Reading some of the posts in that thread just highlights how much has changed since 2018! It said the 197s were supposed to start on the North Wales/South Wales to Manchesters as well as Cambrian all in 2022! They did indeed make a start in North Wales in Late 2022 but 4 years late for the Cambrian!

Mind you, it also said 170s would be doing the Heart of Wales from 2022!

All such a long time ago !.

Seems to be taking ages for the remaining 197s to be put into passenger service. I think there are 7 out of 77 that have not yet been in service?

Correct really, eight unused if you include yet to be delivered 107041 (nine if you include long stored 197003).

In my creaky records, as at 14/02/2026, the nine to wonder about.
197003 Holyhead stored (un-serviceable ?) unused for a long time but was used in service.
197023
197025
107030 Cambrian with 197029 for fitter training, crew training and ERTMS testing, was Crewe.
197032
197038
197039 Emerged from CAF Sep 2025
197040 Emerged from CAF Nov 2025
197041 CAF yet to emerge from the factory.

The other six (023, 025, 032, 038, 039, 040) are at Crewe. Currently South Yard except 040 which has been at Crewe Carriage for most of its existence (since November. 2025).

My guess is TfW do not urgently need the above until Cambrian switches over. The rest of the ERTMS fleet is covering for missing non-ERTMS 197s some long term out of action 197s and some 197s covering other duties prior to a stock cascade when 398s come in. The ERTMS 197s are 197003, 197022 to 197041. So use on Cambrian cannot happen (we believe) until the rest of the ERTMS fleet of 197s are freed up.

 

[ThePeakNed]

Mind you, it also said 170s would be doing the Heart of Wales from 2022!

As much as I would have loved to have signed 170s, I really have to question some TOCs obsessions for running traction on routes and stopping patterns that said traction is absolutely not built for.

 

[vicbury]

All such a long time ago !.

Correct really, eight unused if you include yet to be delivered 107041 (nine if you include long stored 197003).

In my creaky records, as at 14/02/2026, the nine to wonder about.
197003 Holyhead stored (un-serviceable ?) unused for a long time but was used in service.
197023
197025
107030 Cambrian with 197029 for fitter training, crew training and ERTMS testing, was Crewe.
197032
197038
197039 Emerged from CAF Sep 2025
197040 Emerged from CAF Nov 2025
197041 CAF yet to emerge from the factory.

The other six (023, 025, 032, 038, 039, 040) are at Crewe. Currently South Yard except 040 which has been at Crewe Carriage for most of its existence (since November. 2025).

My guess is TfW do not urgently need the above until Cambrian switches over. The rest of the ERTMS fleet is covering for missing non-ERTMS 197s some long term out of action 197s and some 197s covering other duties prior to a stock cascade when 398s come in. The ERTMS 197s are 197003, 197022 to 197041. So use on Cambrian cannot happen (we believe) until the rest of the ERTMS fleet of 197s are freed up.

Us long suffering passengers enduring cancellations due to a shortage of rolling stock, 150s and 153s instead of 197s, which in turn are running instead of 231s, would beg to differ with TfW about the urgency of getting all the 197s in service..

 

[Jez]

Us long suffering passengers enduring cancellations due to a shortage of rolling stock, 150s and 153s instead of 197s, which in turn are running instead of 231s, would beg to differ with TfW about the urgency of getting all the 197s in service..

I think it's more about Chester not being able to cope if they rushed the other 197s into service. Currently several 197s are out of service due to Chester having capacity for so many at a time. Until the Machynlleth is up and running for 197s the extra 197s won't make much difference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

All such a long time ago !.

Correct really, eight unused if you include yet to be delivered 107041 (nine if you include long stored 197003).

In my creaky records, as at 14/02/2026, the nine to wonder about.
197003 Holyhead stored (un-serviceable ?) unused for a long time but was used in service.
197023
197025
107030 Cambrian with 197029 for fitter training, crew training and ERTMS testing, was Crewe.
197032
197038
197039 Emerged from CAF Sep 2025
197040 Emerged from CAF Nov 2025
197041 CAF yet to emerge from the factory

I wondered about 197003..is it out of service long term due to no space at Chester or are there major issues with it ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Us long suffering passengers enduring cancellations due to a shortage of rolling stock, 150s and 153s instead of 197s, which in turn are running instead of 231s, would beg to differ with TfW about the urgency of getting all the 197s in service..

Oh it is urgent. But the log jam is Machynlleth cannot touch 197s until all the 158s go. Because also the Cambrian cannot operate on a mixed 158 and 197 fleet. So currently the 21 ERTMS 197s are "spare" but roughly 15 are used.

As @Jezz says Chester does not have the capacity for all 197s. But I am not sure even with Machynlleth there is enough capacity for all the 197s.

All academic until the 398s take over the TAM lines, cascading 231s and 756s to their planned lines which in turn frees up the the 197s covering for the borrowed 231s & 756s. But there are also ERTMS 197s covering for broken 197s - I think that is getting less of a problem though.

I think it's more about Chester not being able to cope if they rushed the other 197s into service. Currently several 197s are out of service due to Chester having capacity for so many at a time. Until the Machynlleth is up and running for 197s the extra 197s won't make much difference.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==


I wondered about 197003..is it out of service long term due to no space at Chester or are there major issues with it ?

It is open to debate (up thread) if Chester can ever handle enough of the 197s.

197003 has been out of action for a long time. But I *think* TfW are working through the long term sidelined 197s as there seem to be fewer 197s stored/parked at Holyhead - can anyone confirm * ?. So maybe 197003s turn is getting sooner. Maybe it is last because it is ERTMS OR maybe it is last because it was worst (broken or robbed of parts) - I do not know.

* = I think some of the 197s that were stored at Holyhead have ended up in the yard alongside Chester station. Last time I was there you could see missing bits so possibly being robbed for spares. Up (this ?) thread there have been suggestions a spares supply issue is easing. In my book new fleets always suffer a spares shortage until someone coughs up the money for a realistic spares inventory or problem components get re-designed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Oh it is urgent. But the log jam is Machynlleth cannot touch 197s until all the 158s go. Because also the Cambrian cannot operate on a mixed 158 and 197 fleet. So currently the 21 ERTMS 197s are "spare" but roughly 15 are used.

Surely the Cambrian CAN operate on a mixed fleet, since the log trains (97-hauled freight) are able to run, as indeed have the 197s currently on the Cambrian for staff training purposes. Addmittedly the class 197s cannot multi with anything else (except perhaps 196s?) so TfW may not want to run it with a mixed 158+197 fleet (partly due to issues with clearing the line in the event of breakdowns, although they don't seem to mind elsewhere on their network such as between Craven Arms and Shrewsbury). It may also be the case that Machynlleth doesn't have the capacity to maintain both the class 158 and class 197(e) fleets but, that aside (and given that we have seen daylight photos of 197s on the Cambrian), as layman I cannot see why they couldn't run a few standalone AYW-SHR workings with 197s once sufficient crews sign them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Surely the Cambrian CAN operate on a mixed fleet, since the log trains (97-hauled freight) are able to run, as indeed have the 197s currently on the Cambrian for staff training purposes. Addmittedly the class 197s cannot multi with anything else (except perhaps 196s?) so TfW may not want to run it with a mixed 158+197 fleet (partly due to issues with clearing the line in the event of breakdowns, although they don't seem to mind elsewhere on their network such as between Craven Arms and Shrewsbury). It may also be the case that Machynlleth doesn't have the capacity to maintain both the class 158 and class 197(e) fleets but, that aside (and given that we have seen daylight photos of 197s on the Cambrian), as layman I cannot see why they couldn't run a few standalone AYW-SHR workings with 197s once sufficient crews sign them.

The non splitting/joining diagrams might be a possibility, but I am unaware of how many there are.

But I recall the majority of services on the Cambrian involve splitting and joining and the units do not end up coupled back to the same unit as earlier in their day so only diagrams that do not involve splitting and joining all day would be suitable.

A mixed fleet would be difficult for Machynlleth if it involved keeping more spare parts than they have space for.

For Cambrian users I would stick with the 158s until the 197s are very well bedded in elsewhere !.

 

[Class777]

Speaking to a staff member last night, insider info suggests that TfW are in frantic talks with CAF to try and improve the reliability issues and that a giant order of spare parts has arrived. Apparently the software may be cranking out too - I have noticed a lot of glitches on it recently I must say
(may be wibble so I will be cautious)

 

[D365]

But I recall the majority of services on the Cambrian involve splitting and joining and the units do not end up coupled back to the same unit as earlier in their day so only diagrams that do not involve splitting and joining all day would be suitable.

A mixed fleet would be difficult for Machynlleth if it involved keeping more spare parts than they have space for.

Nail on head.

 

[Gordonman]

Four of the ERTMS units which have been working normal services for TFW have not been in service this week.Very unusual for 4 of these units to be OOS for so long.I am just wondering if TFW are starting to store these again or whether they are genuinely stopped for repairs or exam.The units concerned are 197022,197026,197027 and 197033 if anyone is interested.

I always thought that 197003 is only temporarily fitted with ERTMS due to the late delivery of the fleet or possibly to cover for 197025 which TFW refused to accept at Donnington and was returned to CAF Newport.I have often wondered that when 197025 was eventually returned to Donnington whether or not it was actually the same unit or whether numbering of later deliveries was amended.Could well be the reason why the last few ERTMS deliveries have been so late.Obviously if that was the case there would be two additional vehicles spare at Newport or maybe 197041 or another of the more recent deliveries is actually the original 197025.

Other units not in traffic this week are -

197003
197008
197010
197014
197016
197045
197047
197110
197123
197126
as well as the units listed above

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2026 ==

Nail on head.

Not necessarily.Most of the work on the class 158's is carried out at Crewe LNWR,Crewe Electric or Canton.Mach mostly just carries out scheduled exams

 

[tfw756rider]

Speaking to a staff member last night, insider info suggests that TfW are in frantic talks with CAF to try and improve the reliability issues and that a giant order of spare parts has arrived.

Wow, eventually.

Apparently the software may be cranking out too - I have noticed a lot of glitches on it recently I must say
(may be wibble so I will be cautious)

What do you mean by cranking out?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The delay on the Cambrian is very poor considering the December 2022 introduction for the units.