A high-speed rail Loop around UK and Ireland

[kevin_roche]

I saw this article on the newcivilengineer.com website and wondered if it is at all practical.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...d-ireland-inspired-by-saudi-vision-09-02-2026

The president for the Royal Institute of British Architects (Riba) has proposed building a futuristic, interconnected high-speed railway for the North, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland referred to as “The Loop”, akin Saudi Arabia’s The Line.
Chris Williamson’s ambitious £130bn proposal would link Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, Dublin and Bangor in a continuous circuit with high-speed trains.

The 50m trains would run every five minutes at speeds of up to 480km/h on an elevated viaduct and would operate on a point-to-point basis running directly between each city without intermediate stops. For instance, a Liverpool to Glasgow service would not stop anywhere on the way and neither would a Belfast to Manchester service.

 

[321362]

Looks ridiculous. 50m is 2 cars for a normal high speed train. Point-to-point on a loop is also silly.

We do need high speed rail to Ireland, yes, but not like this.

 

[FGWHST43009]

I saw this article on the newcivilengineer.com website and wondered if it is at all practical.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...d-ireland-inspired-by-saudi-vision-09-02-2026

Having nowhere for trains to terminate is not a good idea.

An Irish fixed link is good on paper but expensive, let alone two. Some of these connections need to be HSR, but not built like this. Just build a conventional high-speed network connected with HS2.

 

[35B]

Just as Saudi Arabia's "The Line" project is starting to implode for being fundamentally implausible and undeliverable.

The combination of pure point to point links with a stop in Bangor tells me that this is not a serious project, but a flight of fancy.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is incredibly stupid, and very funny that an organisation like RIBA thinks this guff is worth talking about. That's before we mention the AI slop images which have been lazily crapped out into the article.

I love the idea that the Royal Institute of British Architects think Dublin would like to be "the same global city" as various English ones. Even funnier that the inspiration for this is The Line, a city which has been so vastly reduced in scope the Saudis don't talk about it much lately.

 

[stevieinselby]

Absolutely farcical, so stupid it's barely worth the effort to pull it apart, but briefly:

• 50m trains are barely better than pods, if you're running trains then make them proper sized trains. Financially and logistically illiterate to suggest running 50m trains.
• Point-to-point services that are going through other stations on the loop are plain dumb, if you are going to build a loop like this then the only remotely sensible way to serve it would be trains going round and round the circle calling at each of the 9 stations on the way.
• If HS2 was wildly overspecced at 400km/h, in what possible world could 480km/h for this be a good idea?
• Running an elevated viaduct through those cities and those landscapes would be catastrophically destructive and any government that tried to implement it would win a negative number of seats at every future election.
• Not just one but two Irish Sea crossings
• 8 major metropolises and ... Bangor
• Less than zero chance that any economic benefits from this would pay back the outlay before the heat death of the universe.

 

[Nottingham59]

It's a nonsense, but it gets them talked about.

Always remember that architects are paid a percentage of the cost of the final project. That gives them every incentive to make whatever extravagant proposals they think the client will swallow.

Same danger as giving cost-plus design and build contracts to construction companies who make money building bat tunnels.

 

[FGWHST43009]

• 8 major metropolises and ... Bangor
• Less than zero chance that any economic benefits from this would pay back the outlay before the heat death of the universe.

Why people want to go to Bangor...

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Why people want to go to Bangor...

We had a lovely time the day we went to Bangor.

 

[FGWHST43009]

We had a lovely time the day we went to Bangor.

Sounds like a nice place, but doesn't justify being on an international high-speed line. It seems like the equivalent to Ashford on the CTRL, but is probably far less useful than Ashford International (when the international services are actually running)

 

[35B]

Sounds like a nice place, but doesn't justify being on an international high-speed line. It seems like the equivalent to Ashford on the CTRL, but is probably far less useful than Ashford International (when the international services are actually running)

I think that's a bit of a harsh comparison, but both are better railheads than destinations.

 

[kevin_roche]

I thought it looked crazy, but I wasn't sure, as I'm a beginner, not an expert. I thought maybe there is something in it if RIBA are involved. Thanks for the replies.

 

[birchesgreen]

Sounds like some tech bro nonsense trying to reinvent public transport.

 

[quantinghome]

We had a lovely time the day we went to Bangor.

I suspect the originator of this idea had opened more than one bottle of cider 'as the wheels went round'...

 

[Mikey C]

A giant Circle Line

I'm surprised it doesn't go through the Isle of Man, if you're drawing fantasy sea crossings...

 

[MP33]

Was it drawn up, by someone who draws up the properties. Featured on Grand Designs.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Just as the TGV has its “sugar-beet stations” maybe this line could have a station on Arran!

 

[aron2smith]

Looks ridiculous. 50m is 2 cars for a normal high speed train. Point-to-point on a loop is also silly.

We do need high speed rail to Ireland, yes, but not like this.

I would be happy with any railway to Ireland, but this proposal is so far out there. First thing I thought when I saw a viaduct over the choppy Irish Sea is it wouldn't last 5 minutes in a storm!

The only way I think is maybe possible is via SW Scotland, near Stranraer in a tunnel to Northern Ireland. Possibly resurface near Whitehead. Geography makes the Holyhead to Dublin crossing practically impossible. Be inspired by 'The Line', says it all lol

 

[FGWHST43009]

I would be happy with any railway to Ireland, but this proposal is so far out there. First thing I thought when I saw a viaduct over the choppy Irish Sea is it wouldn't last 5 minutes in a storm!

The only way I think is maybe possible is via SW Scotland, near Stranraer in a tunnel to Northern Ireland. Possibly resurface near Whitehead. Geography makes the Holyhead to Dublin crossing practically impossible. Be inspired by 'The Line', says it all lol

Decent idea but isn't there a load of bombs and radioactive stuff dumped near there? Also isn't the sea really deep there?

 

[DerekC]

After the same "don't be ridiculous" thoughts as the last 18 posts, I took a virtual step back and thought - well, is the UK (somebody else needs to speak for the Republic) going to spend the next generation or three sinking slowly into poverty-stricken bitching at each other about the rights and wrongs of the past whilst any remaining talent and investment money disappears over the horizon, or are we going to try something new? You can have a happy argument about how long the trains should be, the configuration of the route and whether there should be a stop in Bangor (it's clearly to include Wales in the project, which is a good idea in principle, just a pity it's at the wrong end) or you can think, what an amazing concept if only it could be got right and made real. That's my 5p worth - now I'll batten down the hatches and wait for the brickbats to arrive.

PS - well, somebody had to speak up for Chris Williamson - he may not know much about railways but he's being a visionary and we need some of that!

 

[FGWHST43009]

After the same "don't be ridiculous" thoughts as the last 18 posts, I took a virtual step back and thought - well, is the UK (somebody else needs to speak for the Republic) going to spend the next generation or three sinking slowly into poverty-stricken bitching at each other about the rights and wrongs of the past whilst any remaining talent and investment money disappears over the horizon, or are we going to try something new? You can have a happy argument about how long the trains should be, the configuration of the route and whether there should be a stop in Bangor (it's clearly to include Wales in the project, which is a good idea in principle, just a pity it's at the wrong end) or you can think, what an amazing concept if only it could be got right and made real. That's my 5p worth - now I'll batten down the hatches and wait for the brickbats to arrive.

PS - well, somebody had to speak up for Chris Williamson - he may not know much about railways but he's being a visionary and we need some of that!

I think there should be a long-term vision for a national high-speed network, building off the full HS2 network. Most of the connections included in the proposal should be built as high-speed rail, but connected with HS2 and be able to be expanded to include other connections. I would expand to include the HS2 'X' plan and a second north-south high-speed line. Build one Irish connection. Galloway makes sense for being relatively short and close to existing transport routes but has the issue of Beaufort's Dyke being really deep and full of bombs. If that could be sorted or dodged then it would work. Longer trains would be better than running short ones.

 

[kevin_roche]

Just as the TGV has its “sugar-beet stations” maybe this line could have a station on Arran!

I'd love a station there. Looks like it goes right by a distillery!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2026 ==

I would be happy with any railway to Ireland, but this proposal is so far out there. First thing I thought when I saw a viaduct over the choppy Irish Sea is it wouldn't last 5 minutes in a storm!

The only way I think is maybe possible is via SW Scotland, near Stranraer in a tunnel to Northern Ireland. Possibly resurface near Whitehead. Geography makes the Holyhead to Dublin crossing practically impossible. Be inspired by 'The Line', says it all lol

I think I saw a plan way back that Boris suggested a tunnel under the Irish Sea. The shortest distance would probably be from somewhere near there.

 

[ThirteenArches]

Remember, architects aren't engineers, they have to hire them to clean up when they've finished. Remember the Millennium Bridge?

 

[aron2smith]

Decent idea but isn't there a load of bombs and radioactive stuff dumped near there? Also isn't the sea really deep there?

That's what I meant by the geography in the Irish Sea being difficult. There is no easy option in reality. I've heard that too about a lot of bombs under the sea off of Northern Ireland too. Don't know how true it is.

Is frustrating though because rail journey times to both Dublin and Belfast could be like the trains from London to Edinburgh if the sea problem was ever solvable. It might be beyond us in any case. We couldn't even do a tunnel to the Isle of Wight and you'd think that would be a lot easier than anything that deals with the Irish Sea.

 

[35B]

That's what I meant by the geography in the Irish Sea being difficult. There is no easy option in reality. I've heard that too about a lot of bombs under the sea off of Northern Ireland too. Don't know how true it is.

Is frustrating though because rail journey times to both Dublin and Belfast could be like the trains from London to Edinburgh if the sea problem was ever solvable. It might be beyond us in any case. We couldn't even do a tunnel to the Isle of Wight and you'd think that would be a lot easier than anything that deals with the Irish Sea.

Beaufort's Dyke was used as a dumping ground after WWII for unused munitions. Wiki references "well over 1 million tonnes" of munitions being dumped there, of which 14000 are shells filled with phosgene gas. When some of them went bang in the 50s, the shock registered 2.5 on the Richter Scale.

Beaufort's Dyke is in the North Channel, between Northern Ireland and the Galloway coast, south of Stranraer.

Looking at the sketch of what's proposed, I think it will avoid that particular problem by bridging a wider part of the Irish Sea and heading via the Mull of Kintyre and Bute - insofar as anything can be read into that sketch

 

[och aye]

I had to double check it wasn't the 1st of April!

 

[bspahh]

Jon Worth wrote:

Verdict
Total complete bull****
Why propose one ridiculous tunnel when you can propose two? Oh and connect them with lines on viaducts. In a country that can't connect HS1 to HS2.
[...]
The idea is supposed to "inspire" and "provoke" according to this De Zeen piece, but all it managed to provoke here was a groan. You spent time on this?

 

[AlexSJW]

I saw this article on the newcivilengineer.com website and wondered if it is at all practical.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...d-ireland-inspired-by-saudi-vision-09-02-2026

Excellent idea. Most of it is existing lines.

 

[gravitystorm]

Decent idea but isn't there a load of bombs and radioactive stuff dumped near there? Also isn't the sea really deep there?

If you are interested in learning more then I recommend the "Fixed transport link between Great Britain and Northern Ireland: technical feasibility" report from 2021, part of the Union Connectivity Review.

The report considers both bridge and tunnel options, estimated around £335bn and £209bn respectively, along with lots of details on all the previous proposals, channel depths, alternative routes and so on.

 

[yorkie]

This reminds me of...

Does anyone remember a few years ago there was a chap who posted regularly in various forums and the uk.railway usenet group about a proposed high speed ring network, and he also sometimes referred to it as a 'thorn shaped' network. Michael Bell I think it was?

I'm sure @Bletchleyite will remember Michael Bell from the uk.railway newsgroup.

Edit: according to this, he died six and a half years ago:

Michael GrahamBELL (Forest Hall) Surrounded by family on 30th September aged 78 years...

And here is an archive of his website:

Introduction to the Thorn-shaped route and the new city of Ringby

The Japanese shinkansens are no longer new, but they are still being developed and they hold lessons we should learn from here . Most of the route must be new build, but it can run side-by-side...

web.archive.org

The Thorn-shaped route is my name for my proposed alternative to HS2’s proposals for a High-Speed railway to “Birmingham and beyond”. HS2 call their route “the Y-shaped” route because of its shape, and I call my route the “Thorn-shaped route” because it is shaped like the letter Þ, called “Thorn”, used in old English to write the sounds which we now write “th”.

The thorn-shaped route joins together all the main centres of population in Britain east of the Severn, so it will attract the maximum possible traffic (not only traffic to or from London), with the least possible mileage of track, so it is therefore best value for money, and it avoids cutting through the Chilterns.

I submitted this proposal to the DfT’s consultation in July 2011 and you can read it here. A response, here, was sent to me on 18 October 2012. It definitely counts as "left behind" or "overlooked", it would not have been produced at all if a minister had not chased it, and it was followed up later by this.

For this site I have changed the main ideas very little, but I have broken it down into its elements and added a few new things. You can read a summary of it here [FlyerSide1 and FlyerSide2], print it on the two sides of a piece of A4 paper and fold it down the middle to produce an A5 flyer.