Starting service with the front unit off the platform

[nw1]

Not sure if this is the best forum for this - please move if so.

I'm wondering if it is allowed or permitted for the front unit (with the driver) of a long train to start "off the platform". So for example you have a terminal station where the platform can only take 8 cars, but the train is 12 car, with the rear 8 cars on the platform but the front 4 beyond the platform.

I remember Alton used to have some 12VEP formations in the 80s and 90s, the favourite was the 1748 off Waterloo, yet I'm fairly sure Alton's platforms are not so long, maybe 8-car, which suggests the front unit on the corresponding up service was probably off the platform.
Furthermore if you look at some 70s and early 80s CWNs, you find plenty of 10- or 12-car formations down to Alton, and in more recent times (SWT post-2004), a few 10.444 or 12.450 formations.

If it is allowed, do special exceptions need to be made? Is it widespread?

East Grinstead is a similar type of station to Alton (terminal, takes busy commuter services) though I've never visited and thus don't know how long the platforms are. Have only ever seen a max of 8-cars go down there (in the early days of electrification) though I understand that more recently, some longer formations have gone that way.

Thanks.

 

[Horizon22]

Pretty sure some 12-car services at Liverpool Street at certain platforms - I'm sure an expert like @dk1 can confirm - have had to do this because they are slightly beyond the starting signal. I am not sure what the method of work generally is.

 

[dk1]

Pretty sure some 12-car services at Liverpool Street at certain platforms - I'm sure an expert like @dk1 can confirm - have had to do this because they are slightly beyond the starting signal. I am not sure what the method of work generally is.

No not ever known that mate. Platforms 16, 17 & the now abolished 18 were only 8-car platforms so that only happened if a 12-car train was wrongly signalled in. Only other time I’ve known it was if a Thunderbird loco had to attach to a failed Intercity set back in the day. Both instances were obviously not an everyday occurrence in normal operation.

 

[Horizon22]

No not ever known that mate. Platforms 16, 17 & the now abolished 18 were only 8-car platforms so that only happened if a 12-car train was wrongly signalled in. Only other time I’ve known it was if a Thunderbird loco had to attach to a failed Intercity set back in the day. Both instances were obviously not an everyday occurrence in normal operation.

Fair enough, might have been that it was very tight on some platforms then as I heard a story about it.

 

[mmh]

I'm wondering if it is allowed or permitted for the front unit (with the driver) of a long train to start "off the platform". So for example you have a terminal station where the platform can only take 8 cars, but the train is 12 car, with the rear 8 cars on the platform but the front 4 beyond the platform.

That's what used to happen on HSTs between Bristol and Weston-super-Mare - the stop boards were beyond the platforms. Not been along there in many years though so have no idea what happens now.

 

[swt_passenger]

Alton rings a bell. I remember some discussion about a problem that had to be overcome with the ASDO system on long trains made up of 3 x SWT 450 Desiros starting back from Alton, they have to lock out the front few carriages when returning, and there was originally a problem when the driver changed ends. Someone from the TOC might be able to explain it better. I know the starter signals at Alton are about 100m away from the platform ramps, almost as far as the points where the route reverts to a single line.

 

[Kite159]

I'm pretty sure when Greater Anglia had the 321s, a triple set would have the front unit overhanging the platform at Braintree & Southminster when they ran 12 coach units in the peaks.

 

[321362]

I'm pretty sure when Greater Anglia had the 321s, a triple set would have the front unit overhanging the platform at Braintree & Southminster when they ran 12 coach units in the peaks.

iirc, southminster rarely, if ever, had 12 cars (happy to be corrected). no idea about braintree

 

[Kite159]

iirc, southminster rarely, if ever, had 12 cars (happy to be corrected). no idea about braintree

There was at least one Liverpool Street - Southminster service in the evening peak, returned to Shenfield whilst the unit which would have done the Southminster service headed to London to get it out of the way

 

[jazzy]

Longer IET formations have the front carriage not at the platform with two or maybe three doors disabled when departing Bath Spa westbound. This often results in drama from the occupants of the front carriage when they realise they have to be in the second carriage to alight.

 

[dk1]

Both the Southminster & Braintree branches had 12-car 321s prior to the total fleet renewal. Since then both still have regular 10-car 720 operation.

 

[Surreytraveller]

East Grinstead is a similar type of station to Alton (terminal, takes busy commuter services) though I've never visited and thus don't know how long the platforms are. Have only ever seen a max of 8-cars go down there (in the early days of electrification) though I understand that more recently, some longer formations have gone that way.

Thanks.

East Grinstead has 12-car platforms. It was only 8-car at electrification, but the platforms were extended some years ago (about 15?).
The siding at East Grinstead is still only 8-car long, though

 

[Undaunted]

I know the starter signals at Alton are about 100m away from the platform ramps, almost as far as the points where the route reverts to a single line.

Is this not the key point? The difficulty arises only if the front of the train (on departure) is beyond the signal, in which case the signaller will not be able to clear the route and the signal will be held at danger. Then a discussion between driver and signaller, and some manual route setting, will presumably be necessary before the driver can be authorised to move.

 

[nw1]

Can confirm the above, I have a "One" diagrams document from 2007 (downloaded from the UK Modern EMUs group before it disappeared) and can see 12-car 321s from both Southminster and Braintree.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm pretty sure when Greater Anglia had the 321s, a triple set would have the front unit overhanging the platform at Braintree & Southminster when they ran 12 coach units in the peaks.

Both the Southminster & Braintree branches had 12-car 321s prior to the total fleet renewal. Since then both still have regular 10-car 720 operation.

In class 321 days the platforms at Braintree and Southminster were 8 cars but some peak hour trains were 12 cars. The GE class 321/4s 321438-448 had a rudimentary form of SDO and had to be the front and rear units in a 12 car formation.

As far as I can tell the Braintree platform has now been lengthened to take a 10 car class 720, but Southminster has not. RTT suggests that 0648 from Wickford forming 0737 up from Southminster is now the only 10 car train on the Southminster branch. Has anyone been to Southminster to see how it is done?

 

[nw1]

Going further back, at some point (and I can't remember where from, to be honest) I salvaged some 312 diagrams from 2000/01. This also shows a 12-car formation, 312s this time, from Southminster.

The train is 1J05, 0715 off Southminster, basically the same service that was a 12-car 321 formation in 2007.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Southern Electric Group:
11/04/23. A grey day at Alton! Overcast skies and matching trains as 450042 prepares to lead the 12.44 to Waterloo with 450002 having just arrived and due to return at 13.14. 12-car trains do not fit the platform here as can be seen but they are within the signals. How many other terminal locations allow this?

Does seem that a 12car is still within the Starter Signal at Alton, albeit off the platform according to the above post. ASDO would hand that as in the opposite direction the train would have opened with the rear 4 locked out, driver keys on at the other end, door closes and it bogs off.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fairly sure there were special arrangements when the East Coast HSTs went to Glasgow QS; similarly long trains at Kings Cross before the remodelling in the 70s.

 

[nw1]

Does seem that a 12car is still within the Starter Signal at Alton, albeit off the platform according to the above post. ASDO would hand that as in the opposite direction the train would have opened with the rear 4 locked out, driver keys on at the other end, door closes and it bogs off.

Ah ok, interesting, thanks for that.

Looks also like turnaround time at Alton is much greater than it was back in the 80s and 90s. It was always one service in, one service out for many years.

 

[Nammer]

I have witnessed trains formed of 10 or 12 coaches starting from Platform 1 at Portsmouth Harbour (8 coach platform). The signal gantry position allows for this.

 

[dk1]

In class 321 days the platforms at Braintree and Southminster were 8 cars but some peak hour trains were 12 cars. The GE class 321/4s 321438-448 had a rudimentary form of SDO and had to be the front and rear units in a 12 car formation.

As far as I can tell the Braintree platform has now been lengthened to take a 10 car class 720, but Southminster has not. RTT suggests that 0648 from Wickford forming 0737 up from Southminster is now the only 10 car train on the Southminster branch. Has anyone been to Southminster to see how it is done?

And so many went out in the wrong formation so couldn’t proceed onto the branch or had to have stops removed.

 

[ponponjo]

12-car Class 375 formations in platforms 5 and 6 at Charing Cross have the country-end carriage off the end of the platform, but behind the starting signal.

 

[800301]

If terminating an 8car 387 at Theale Platform 3 or Twyford Platform 4 from London, when you change ends the front coaches are off the platform, you are also unable to do reopen the doors at these platforms as after changing ends the ASDO will just open all doors

If terminating a 9/10 car 80x at Didcot Parkway P4 which you aren’t permitted to do as per the operational restrictions of said train, not only do you have doors off the platform, you would be starting beyond the starting signal and need to gain permission from the signaller, despite this, over the last week many 9 cars have been reversed in P4….

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Weren't the Eurostar sets that were used on King's Cross-Leeds services longer than the platforms, at least at one end of the oute?

 

[Magdalia]

Weren't the Eurostar sets that were used on King's Cross-Leeds services longer than the platforms, at least at one end of the oute?

My recollection is that at Kings Cross the Eurostar sets could only use platform 1 or platform 6 which were the only platforms long enough.

 

[Barnsley]

Happens daily at Hull with Hull Trains 10-car services, Platfrorms 6 and 7 can only hold 9, but 12 will fit behind the signals, as they are further back

 

[dodecahedron67]

Redcar Central whenever a double 185 gets up there. Rear 2 carriages off the platform as it arrives, which become the front 2 on departure

 

[TEW]

Alton rings a bell. I remember some discussion about a problem that had to be overcome with the ASDO system on long trains made up of 3 x SWT 450 Desiros starting back from Alton, they have to lock out the front few carriages when returning, and there was originally a problem when the driver changed ends. Someone from the TOC might be able to explain it better. I know the starter signals at Alton are about 100m away from the platform ramps, almost as far as the points where the route reverts to a single line.

The ASDO all works correctly now in normal operations. 9-car 444/450 formations were not permitted to terminate and restart in the opposite direction at a short platform for a long time due to ASDO problems but that restriction no longer applies. Provided the train is not rebooted it will remember where it is and will only release the correct doors, even after the driver has changed ends.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

One time I had a 4 car 158 not fully make it into platform 3 (I assume the driver just stopped a bit short) at Wigan North Western, so the back door was beyond the platform (where the fence is)
The guard opened every door except the back one manually with the emergency entrances, no clue how departure was done.

 

[ajwffc]

Fairly sure there were special arrangements when the East Coast HSTs went to Glasgow QS; similarly long trains at Kings Cross before the remodelling in the 70s.

They could only use one platform (7 I think)at Queen Street. I am sure there were special signals that allowed the driver of a train sitting beyond them to see what it was displaying(Inverness and Perth might have had the same).