[TRIVIA] Impossible Journeys Using Same Set Of Doors

[tbtc]

Obviously some trains are too long to fully stop at certain stations (or stations are too short to accommodate trains), and selective door opening deals with that

But are there any/many direct journeys where it's not possible to use the same set of doors?

i.e. you can only board the train at the rear doors at Ambridge but you must disembark at the rear when it gets to Dibley

There may even be examples where a reversal part way through the journey means that the train continues to use the front doors but the initial front door is now at the rear, if that makes sense, so you'd have to move along

(for avoidance of doubt, I'm not talking about lines with island platforms/ termini that mean you might board on the east side of the carriage and leave on the west, e.g. Durham to Darlington, the doors on each side of the train are "one" for this argument - this is about services using SDO)

 

[saismee]

Might be simpler to say "impossible journey without moving coach"

 

[Kite159]

There will probably be some where a long train will stop with the front coaches off the platform (due to a level crossing) and another stop along the line it's the rear coaches off the platform. Maybe the Clacton line or elsewhere on GA

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will probably be some where a long train will stop with the front coaches off the platform (due to a level crossing) and another stop along the line it's the rear coaches off the platform. Maybe the Clacton line or elsewhere on GA

I can't remember for absolute certain, but isn't there an issue on Northern where a 6 car works the Windermere service of travelling between Burneside and Staveley because the back is off at one and the front off at the other, and it's two units so you can't get between? I might be wrong though, it might be that one is 4 car and one 3 so there is a coach in common.

 

[Lewisham2221]

On a TfW Mk4 service:
Nantwich to Wem
Wem to Abergavenny

(Southbound - Nantwich and Abergavenny are front 2 coaches, Wem is rear 2 coaches)

 

[saismee]

There will probably be some where a long train will stop with the front coaches off the platform (due to a level crossing) and another stop along the line it's the rear coaches off the platform. Maybe the Clacton line or elsewhere on GA

Marks Tey to Sudbury almost does it with the rear coach being off each terminus platform when arriving, though the middle coach is still platformed.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Might be simpler to say "impossible journey without moving coach"

Or "stations where not all doors open"!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Or "stations where not all doors open"!

Not quite, there's obviously loads of stations where some form of SDO is used because not all doors a platformed, but it's usually possible to board an appropriate carriage at the start of the journey. I believe the OP is asking for pairs of stations where none of the doors which are platformed at station A are platformed at station B.

Eg. A 2 car train operating a service where the whole train is platformed at most stations, but there is one station where only the front carriage is platformed, and another station where only the rear carriage is platformed.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Not quite, there's obviously loads of stations where some form of SDO is used because not all doors a platformed, but it's usually possible to board an appropriate carriage at the start of the journey. I believe the OP is asking for pairs of stations where none of the doors which are platformed at station A are platformed at station B.

Aah yes, I see the interpretation.

 

[stadler]

On the 8 car workings between Brighton and Hastings or Ore and vice versa (that remain 8 car throughout) there are a few booked pairs on some services when it is impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

The following are booked for 8 cars which means that these would count:

MO TO FR - 23:43 Collington to Moulsecoomb 00:38
SA - 23:42 Collington to Moulsecoomb 00:39
SU - 07:37 Moulsecoomb to Normans Bay 08:31
SU - 07:37 Moulsecoomb to Collington 08:39
SU - 08:37 Moulsecoomb to Normans Bay 09:31
SU - 08:37 Moulsecoomb to Collington 09:39

The above journeys are impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

These are the only booked services like this that i can find along these routes.

There are lots of other services and station combinations where it would be possible if they were longer but those all seem to be 4 car workings.

There have been occasional 12 car workings between London Victoria and Hastings or Ore and vice versa that stay 12 car all the way. They are not booked but do happen from time to time. I have seen a few dozen in recent years. These have far more combinations where it is impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

These are the carriages that open on these routes:

Eastbound - From London:
• Front 8 - Balcombe
• All 12 - Haywards Heath
• All 12 - Wivelsfield
• Front 7 - Plumpton
• Front 6 - Cooksbridge
• All 12 - Lewes
• Front 6 - Glynde
• Front 7 - Berwick
• All 12 - Polegate
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• Rear 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Rear 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Rear 3 - Normans Bay
• Rear 6 - Cooden Beach
• Rear 4 - Collington
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Rear 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Hastings
• Rear 5 - Ore

Eastbound - From Brighton:
• All 12 - Brighton
• Front 6 - London Road Brighton
• Front 4 - Moulsecoomb
• Front 8 - Falmer
• Front 6 - Lewes
• Front 6 - Glynde
• Front 7 - Berwick
• All 12 - Polegate
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• Rear 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Rear 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Rear 3 - Normans Bay
• Rear 6 - Cooden Beach
• Rear 4 - Collington
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Rear 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Hastings
• Rear 5 - Ore

Westbound - To London:
• Front 5 - Ore
• All 12 - Hastings
• Front 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Front 4 - Collington
• Front 6 - Cooden Beach
• Front 3 - Normans Bay
• Front 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Front 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Polegate
• Rear 7 - Berwick
• Rear 6 - Glynde
• All 12 - Lewes
• Rear 8 - Cooksbridge
• Rear 7 - Plumpton
• All 12 - Wivelsfield
• All 12 - Haywards Heath
• All 12 - Balcombe

Westbound - To Brighton:
• Front 5 - Ore
• All 12 - Hastings
• Front 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Front 4 - Collington
• Front 6 - Cooden Beach
• Front 3 - Normans Bay
• Front 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Front 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Polegate
• Rear 7 - Berwick
• Rear 6 - Glynde
• Rear 7 - Lewes
• Rear 8 - Falmer
• Rear 4 - Moulsecoomb
• Rear 6 - London Road Brighton
• All 12 - Brighton

As you can see there are some combinations of stations on 8 car services (and far more on 12 car services) that make it impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

Note that the rear becomes the front after the Eastbourne reversal. Anywhere that i have written "rear" is actually the "front" once it gets to those stations. It is always the front that opens. Southern do not use SDO from the rear like GA do.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Euston to Fort william (if using the seated accomodation, or you are a bicycle) !

 

[stadler]

Euston to Fort william (if using the seated accomodation, or you are a bicycle) !

But it is still possible to do that journey by boarding and alighting through the same door. The sleeper carriages go all the way. So i am not sure that counts. Even if you are in the seating accomodation or have a bicycle you could always still board the Fort William sleeper coach and walk down and then walk back to the sleeper coach when to alight.

 

[VT 390]

On Great Western Railway services formed of 9 carriage class 800/class 802 when boarding at Worcester Foregate Street, Malvern Link and Great Malvern it is the front 5 carriages but to alight at Ledbury it is the rear 3 carriages. The same applies when boarding at Colwall travelling to Ledbury except Colwall is the front 4 carriages instead of front 5 carriages.
This example only applies in this direction travelling towards Hereford as in the other direction it is the front carriages at all these stations.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

On the 8 car workings between Brighton and Hastings or Ore and vice versa (that remain 8 car throughout) there are a few booked pairs on some services when it is impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

The following are booked for 8 cars which means that these would count:

MO TO FR - 23:47 Cooden Beach to Moulsecoomb 00:38
SA - 23:46 Cooden Beach to Moulsecoomb 00:39
SU - 07:37 Moulsecoomb to Normans Bay 08:31
SU - 07:37 Moulsecoomb to Cooden Beach 08:35
SU - 08:37 Moulsecoomb to Normans Bay 09:31
SU - 08:37 Moulsecoomb to Cooden Beach 09:35

The above journeys are impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

These are the only booked services like this that i can find along these routes.

There are lots of other services and station combinations where it would be possible if they were longer but those all seem to be 4 car workings.

There have been occasional 12 car workings between London Victoria and Hastings or Ore and vice versa that stay 12 car all the way. They are not booked but do happen from time to time. I have seen a few dozen in recent years. These have far more combinations where it is impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

These are the carriages that open on these routes:

Eastbound - From London:
• Front 8 - Balcombe
• All 12 - Haywards Heath
• All 12 - Wivelsfield
• Front 7 - Plumpton
• Front 6 - Cooksbridge
• All 12 - Lewes
• Front 6 - Glynde
• Front 7 - Berwick
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• Rear 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Rear 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Rear 3 - Normans Bay
• Rear 4 - Cooden Beach
• Rear 6 - Collington
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Rear 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Hastings
• Rear 5 - Ore

Eastbound - From Brighton:
• All 12 - Brighton
• Front 6 - London Road Brighton
• Front 4 - Moulsecoomb
• Front 8 - Falmer
• Front 6 - Lewes
• Front 6 - Glynde
• Front 7 - Berwick
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• Rear 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Rear 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Rear 3 - Normans Bay
• Rear 4 - Cooden Beach
• Rear 6 - Collington
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Rear 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Hastings
• Rear 5 - Ore

Westbound - From London:
• Front 5 - Ore
• All 12 - Hastings
• Front 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Front 6 - Collington
• Front 4 - Cooden Beach
• Front 3 - Normans Bay
• Front 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Front 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• Rear 7 - Berwick
• Rear 6 - Glynde
• All 12 - Lewes
• Rear 8 - Cooksbridge
• Rear 7 - Plumpton
• All 12 - Wivelsfield
• All 12 - Haywards Heath
• All 12 - Balcombe

Westbound - From Brighton:
• Front 5 - Ore
• All 12 - Hastings
• Front 8 - Saint Leonards Warrior Square
• All 12 - Bexhill
• Front 6 - Collington
• Front 4 - Cooden Beach
• Front 3 - Normans Bay
• Front 3 - Pevensey Bay
• Front 5 - Pevensey & Westham
• Front 8 - Hampden Park
• All 12 - Eastbourne
• Rear 8 - Hampden Park
• Rear 7 - Berwick
• Rear 6 - Glynde
• Rear 7 - Lewes
• Rear 8 - Falmer
• Rear 4 - Moulsecoomb
• Rear 6 - London Road Brighton
• All 12 - Brighton

As you can see there are some combinations of stations on 8 car services (and far more on 12 car services) that make it impossible to board and alight in the same carriage.

Note that the rear becomes the front after the Eastbourne reversal. Anywhere that i have written "rear" is actually the "front" once it gets to those stations. It is always the front that opens. Southern do not use SDO from the rear like GA

Thanks for being comprehensive. Definite issue for the stations between Wivelsfield and Lewes and the halts east of Eastbourne.

 

[Horizon22]

Or "stations where not all doors open"!

Not quite, because if you were in the middle coach, you might be able to disembark at all stops if it is only the rear/front coaches which aren't platformed / doors don't open.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Not quite, because if you were in the middle coach, you might be able to disembark at all stops if it is only the rear/front coaches which aren't platformed / doors don't open.

Indeed,was corrected upthread!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On the 10 car class 720 operated services on Greater Anglia, there are only three carriages which will be platformed at every station they use ( albeit this does I think involve more than one separate route rather than a service using all the relevant stations - I'll have to check the relevant poster again next time I'm at Liverpool Street ).

 

[Horizon22]

As an aside, what would happen to a wheelchair passenger who wanted to make such a journey? I am going to presume that they assistance would be arranged at the next station for which they can get off from the same coach they boarded and then a taxi to destination.

Bare in mind many of these stations may not be step-free anyway and it is not always possible to traverse the coaches.

 

[Lewisham2221]

As an aside, what would happen to a wheelchair passenger who wanted to make such a journey? I am going to presume that they assistance would be arranged at the next station for which they can get off from the same coach they boarded and then a taxi to destination.

Bare in mind many of these stations may not be step-free anyway and it is not always possible to traverse the coaches.

Depends on the specific situation I guess. Obviously if they were consecutive stations, the journey wouldn't be possible by rail and a taxi would have to be arranged. In other situations, if there's more than one wheelchair accessible carriage, it may be possible for the passenger to transfer between carriages at an intermediate station.

 

[stadler]

As an aside, what would happen to a wheelchair passenger who wanted to make such a journey? I am going to presume that they assistance would be arranged at the next station for which they can get off from the same coach they boarded and then a taxi to destination.

Bare in mind many of these stations may not be step-free anyway and it is not always possible to traverse the coaches.

In many cases (like the East Coastway examples i gave) they could simply be transferred from one carriage to another at an intermediate station (at Eastbourne probably) by the OBS or platform staff.

 

[RetroCrowe]

On the somewhat rare occasion that TfW operate a 6-car (3x158) formation on the Birmingham International - Aberystwyth & Pwllheli services during the peak of the summer tourism season, Caersws to anywhere on the Pwllheli portion of the journey would fit this criteria, as only the doors in the front two units open at Caersws but only the rear unit forms the Pwllheli leg.

 

[Horizon22]

On the somewhat rare occasion that TfW operate a 6-car (3x158) formation on the Birmingham International - Aberystwyth & Pwllheli services during the peak of the summer tourism season, Caersws to anywhere on the Pwllheli portion of the journey would fit this criteria, as only the doors in the front two units open at Caersws but only the rear unit forms the Pwllheli leg.

I suppose there are lots of places where trains divide and therefore would be impossible to get to the destination from the same set of doors if you boarded in the wrong unit!

 

[LittleRedTrain]

There used to be an issue where on Sundays, 4-car Alton-Waterloo services would couple to/split from the rear of an 8-car Basingstoke-Waterloo service at Woking.

Because of the short platforms at at Wimbledon and Clapham Junction, only the front 8 coaches would be opened, meaning anyone wanting Alton-Wimbledon/Clapham had to change carriages.

I understand the 450s now have per-coach rather than per-unit SDO, so might no longer be an issue if some of the coaches on the rear unit can now be opened at these stations.

 

[Hophead]

If I've understood correctly, Sunday services up the Arun Valley qualify. 4 coaches run from Portsmouth & Southsea attaching at Barnham to either one or two units from Bognor. Some stations have platforms accommodating 8 coaches or fewer, so for journeys from west of Barnham to Amberley, Billingshurst or Christ's Hospital, passengers must move forward to alight.