Staff on non-ganwayed sets

[Belperpete]

Southern have been running 171+171+171 formations (three units without gangways) on London Bridge to Uckfield services for over fifteen years with just one guard and the guard has always been allowed to be in whatever unit they want. Sometimes they are in the front and sometimes they are in the middle and sometimes they are in the rear. When they are in the front unit it means that both the middle and rear units have no staff members. But this arrangement works fine. It has never caused any issues.

It is not that long ago that the Southern was running trains without through corridors between coaches, let alone between units.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It is not that long ago that the Southern was running trains without through corridors between coaches, let alone between units.

And London Underground still do!

 

[RiverDon]

This would be the case in any TOC - when it needs to happen is defined in the defective on train equipment parts of the rulebook.

Yes I know, I was just clumsily trying to say that that's the only firm requirement for Scotrail. They don't have the same restrictive policies for staff with non-walkthrough units as the other train companies listed in this thread. Although most guards will stay in the back set by choice anyway.

 

[3141]

It is not that long ago that the Southern was running trains without through corridors between coaches, let alone between units.

And at least one of those coaches consisted of compartments with no side corridor.

Similarly on the trains from Fenchurch Street, and elsewhere.

 

[Krokodil]

I know this isn't a new issue: trains with slip coaches used to have slip guards in each portion.

That was rather different. Firstly the guard would be needed to uncouple, secondly once the slip had happened they were physically two different trains which therefore needed two different guards.

And London Underground still do!

A London Underground driver can get from one end to the other to attend to any emergencies, using the emergency doors. Whereas the trains we're talking of would require the driver to go via the ballast. That used to be perfectly normal of course, but after a few too many incidents (self evacuations for example) the need to have someone on hand to attend to the passengers has become more prominent.

 

[AMD]

Yes I know, I was just clumsily trying to say that that's the only firm requirement for Scotrail.

Indeed, ScotRail are generally flexible - as an extension there is actually one location where the conductor has to be in the front unit - Springfield - as two services are formed of 2x170 but both platforms only fit 3 cars.

 

[RiverDon]

Indeed, ScotRail are generally flexible - as an extension there is actually one location where the conductor has to be in the front unit - Springfield - as two services are formed of 2x170 but both platforms only fit 3 cars.

True but you could say that about any of the stations where there's single door operation.

 

[izvor]

I understand that the Javelin sets on HS1 have to have both sets on a 12-car double-manned (driver+guard) on the coast section due to the tight clearances in Shakespeare Cliff Tunnel. This results in the annoying performance of detaching/attaching the rear unit at Ashford on these trains. I have - I think - only seen 12-cars go through during golf tournaments at Sandwich, although some "extras" go via Canterbury and round the Minster curve.

 

[CarrotPie]

I understand that the Javelin sets on HS1 have to have both sets on a 12-car double-manned (driver+guard) on the coast section due to the tight clearances in Shakespeare Cliff Tunnel. This results in the annoying performance of detaching/attaching the rear unit at Ashford on these trains. I have - I think - only seen 12-cars go through during golf tournaments at Sandwich, although some "extras" go via Canterbury and round the Minster curve.

Interesting — why do they detach the units instead of just putting the guard in the rear set?

 

[Dave W]

Interesting — why do they detach the units instead of just putting the guard in the rear set?

I suspect from the way the poster phrased it, that both a driver AND guard are required in both sets. I always wondered why they detached at Ashford!

 

[CarrotPie]

I suspect from the way the poster phrased it, that both a driver AND guard are required in both sets. I always wondered why they detached at Ashford!

Blimey, that's a lot of crew. Makes sense that they detach at Ashford then!

 

[whoosh]

There were some sort of alteration works that went on in Shakespeare Tunnel, as class 365s in the early 2000s weren't allowed at all* as it was deemed there was no room to evacuate via the normal train doors, and unlike the slam door stock, there were no end gangway doors.

*In passenger service at least. They may have been able to run through ECS.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Blimey, that's a lot of crew. Makes sense that they detach at Ashford then!

I saw recently that during peak times they run without passengers express to/from Ashford.
I had assumed they would have no guard and that's why they couldn't run in passenger service but it seems not!

 

[CarrotPie]

On the Shakespeare Cliff Tunnel restriction, I've found a book of mine that says the following:

The single bores are so narrow that if a stationary train has to be evacuated during an emergency, there is insufficient room to open any side doors against the tunnel walls. Consequently, there has always been a requirement that any passenger train passing through has a corridor connection free from obstruction on at least one end. Non-corridor stock and top and tailing of passenger trains was accordingly banned, although a 1985 railtour did slip through the net. The same prohibition was going to apply to the Class 395 Javelins, depriving Dover of its quickest route to the Channel Tunnel Rail Link. It was only by slewing the track very slightly to one side, to create sufficient room to access the evacuation points that were then created in the tunnel's cross-passages, that the rule could be relaxed for the Javelins.

So TL;DR: anything without through gangways out one end of the train is banned in passenger service, except 395s.

 

[stadler]

Oddly the 377s are also banned through the Shakespeare Tunnels even though the almost identical 375s are allowed through.

 

[Kite159]

Oddly the 377s are also banned through the Shakespeare Tunnels even though the almost identical 375s are allowed through.

Isn't that down to the 377s having cameras installed on the side of the body making them slightly wider?

 

[CarrotPie]

Oddly the 377s are also banned through the Shakespeare Tunnels even though the almost identical 375s are allowed through.

Hmm, that seems very odd. The Sectional Appendix (PDF page 609) states:

Owing to the restricted clearances in Shakespeare tunnel only trains fitted with gangways and end vestibule doors are permitted to convey passengers through the tunnel. Locomotive hauled trains are only permitted to convey passengers through the tunnel with a locomotive at the leading end. However if the train consists of any vehicle that has inward opening doors then it is permitted for such train to operate with a locomotive at each end (top & tailed) if required. See separate instruction for trains formed of Class 395 stock.

...so no mention of the 377s.

Isn't that down to the 377s having cameras installed on the side of the body making them slightly wider?

Edit: Oh, that might explain it.

 

[Highlander1]

Most Scotrail guards seem to stay in the back unit but some will swap between them. The only time they absolutely have to be in the back unit is in some unusual fault situations when they have to stay in the front cab of the second set ready to apply the brakes in an emergency, but in that case all the passengers would have to be moved into the front set.

Scotrail guards can move between the two units but generally don't unless there's a specific reason such as a single door station. In general it's driver in the front unit and guard in the rear. That way there's a member of staff in each unit. Makes it easier if a passenger pulls an alarm, otherwise a line block could be needed for the guard to change units.

It's entirely the guards decision although some depots seem to encourage guards to change units during the journey for revenue protection but most guards don't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Indeed, ScotRail are generally flexible - as an extension there is actually one location where the conductor has to be in the front unit - Springfield - as two services are formed of 2x170 but both platforms only fit 3 cars.

That's not entirely accurate. It also applies to Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Portlethen and Invergowrie. I also believe there's one on the highland mainline but I can't remember which one.

 

[StoneRoad]

Back when I was still a guard on a certain n/g line in Nth Wales (several decades ago, now), two of the sets were made up of six "corridors" plus at least two / three "non-corridors" - the other set had three of each - and all strengthening vehicles were non-corridor. The Guard and catering staff would be in the rear, i.e. 'corridors'

When coming into stations I would try to be adjacent to a brake setter; on one memorable occasion I had to brake, the train to a stop, due to a vac bag collapse - which made me carry on with that personal rule.

The added complication was the requirement to apply the budget locks on all out-ward opening doors.

 

[AdamWW]

That was rather different. Firstly the guard would be needed to uncouple, secondly once the slip had happened they were physically two different trains which therefore needed two different guards.

Did the slip coach also carry a "driver" to brake it into the platform, or did the slip guard do that?

i vaguely thought it was the second one, which would provide another reason the carriage would need its own guard.

 

[Krokodil]

Did the slip coach also carry a "driver" to brake it into the platform, or did the slip guard do that?

i vaguely thought it was the second one, which would provide another reason the carriage would need its own guard.

These days the powers that be would want a driver (just like propelling with the guard in the front isn't considered acceptable any more).

Back then it was just the guard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Come to think of it, some preserved railways now require a second driver on autotrains, it's no longer considered adequate to rely on the fireman to release the brakes.

Under BR a fireman would need to be passed to work autotrains. If one turned up who wasn't the driver might trust the fireman enough to carry on, otherwise the fireman would be told to "stand in the front and look clever" while the driver just drove from the loco.

 

[LowLevel]

These days the powers that be would want a driver (just like propelling with the guard in the front isn't considered acceptable any more).

Back then it was just the guard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2026 ==

Come to think of it, some preserved railways now require a second driver on autotrains, it's no longer considered adequate to rely on the fireman to release the brakes.

Under BR a fireman would need to be passed to work autotrains. If one turned up who wasn't the driver might trust the fireman enough to carry on, otherwise the fireman would be told to "stand in the front and look clever" while the driver just drove from the loco.

The guard can propel and there's TOCs where it happens regularly (including surprisingly South Eastern) but obviously it is something they have to actually do and be assessed on and the number of locations on the national network passed for propelling moves is quite small. Same as in some locations guards can operate ground frames or shunt yards.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is this why, on 10-car GWR IET services, I will often hear over the PA messages to the effect of "would the lead host in the front set please make the next IC call" – presumably the train manager moving between sets

This is generally the buffet staff communicating with each other, can you transfer some lids at the next station etc...

 

[Krokodil]

The guard can propel and there's TOCs where it happens regularly (including surprisingly South Eastern) but obviously it is something they have to actually do and be assessed on and the number of locations on the national network passed for propelling moves is quite small. Same as in some locations guards can operate ground frames or shunt yards.

Sadly not here. Most inconvenient when a cab failed 100yds short of a platform. Rather than propel in and detrain the passengers onto a bus (bus company conveniently located in the former goods yard) we had to change ends and go 10 miles back whence we came.

 

[philthetube]

Sort of off topic but on LUL, (Underground) the guard was trained as an emergency driver and could undertake any defect handling tasks required by the driver, subject to defect handling procedures or drive it out of service in an emergency such as a medical issue.

 

[izvor]

On the Shakespeare Cliff Tunnel restriction, I've found a book of mine that says the following:

It was only by slewing the track very slightly to one side, to create sufficient room to access the evacuation points that were then created in the tunnel's cross-passages, that the rule could be relaxed for the Javelins.

So TL;DR: anything without through gangways out one end of the train is banned in passenger service, except 395s.

That's very interesting, thanks. I had wondered how the 395s were still allowed through at all, having no end doors for emergency evacuation, and remembering the earlier issues when the slam-door stock was replaced.

More broadly, I think that 12-car Javelins can operate with only one guard, and I also believe he/she can be in either set; but again I'd appreciate clarification from someone who knows for sure.

 

[Dave W]

On the Shakespeare Cliff Tunnel restriction, I've found a book of mine that says the following:

So TL;DR: anything without through gangways out one end of the train is banned in passenger service, except 395s.

Very interesting. Maybe they ought to have put an emergency door in the nose cone - would make a fun slide...

 

[louis97]

Indeed, ScotRail are generally flexible - as an extension there is actually one location where the conductor has to be in the front unit - Springfield - as two services are formed of 2x170 but both platforms only fit 3 cars.

Not necessarily, both platforms hold more than exactly 3 carriages. When I used the station a few years ago with a 6 car, a local door on each set was released separately, in the middle of the train.

 

[MichaelTrains]

My Northern train which was 2x195 had a guard in each earlier and the guard in the leading set caught quite a few without tickets.

 

[AMD]

Not necessarily, both platforms hold more than exactly 3 carriages. When I used the station a few years ago with a 6 car, a local door on each set was released separately, in the middle of the train.

It's been made explicit since that it's only the front 3 cars accommodated. (As someone who signs this station.....)