Is Grand Central a burden or benefit on Bradford ?

[Halifaxlad]

Before GC started running services into Bradford the station had 4 platforms for Northern services, now effectively Northern has 3 as GC seem to always be occupying at least one of them.

Bradford has capacity issues apparently, so would Bradford be better off if it didn't have to deal with Grand Central ?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

More use of permissive working, or simply better allocation of platforms for the "Huddersfield" (currently Leeds via Dewsbury) service which has a long layover, would solve the issues without anything needing to be cut. I can appreciate that permissive working may not be desirable due to the gradient, but having a 2-car unit blocking one of the two longer platforms for long periods is far more of a problem than the handful of GC services per day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't overly like GC nor their parent company (Arriva), but I think it'd be hard to argue that a direct service from your town to London was a burden, it is almost certainly going to be an economic benefit.

 

[Noddy]

Before GC started running services into Bradford the station had 4 platforms for Northern services, now effectively Northern has 3 as GC seem to always be occupying at least one of them.

Bradford has capacity issues apparently, so would Bradford be better off if it didn't have to deal with Grand Central ?

Better off for whom? The passenger or the railway?

 

[yorksrob]

Obviously the real cause of this problem was the demolition of Exchange station in 1973.

 

[Andyh82]

I don’t see how there is a shortage of platforms. Even when you’ve got a Grand Central and a “Huddersfield” occupying two platforms, you’ve still got a platform for Halifax and a platform for Leeds. You shouldn’t really have two of those services being close enough together that two are trying to get in at once

 

[Kite159]

And if it wasn't for Grand Central, would LNER have increased their London services beyond the token daily train in an attempt to get rid of the competition to allow them to hike advance fares to Wakefield?

(Because afterall when it's cheaper to buy a London - Wakefield advance & a walk-up single from Wakefield to Leeds compared to London to Leeds, something is amiss)

 

[Manutd1999]

I'd argue that Bradford doesn't really need GC now it has the 1p2h LNER service from Forster Sq. However, the direct Lonodn train is a big benefit for Halifax/Brighouse/Pontefract, with the added bonus of providing a direct service from Bradford to Doncaster/Wakefield, so it should stay.

 

[stevieinselby]

What's interesting is that it's only the early afternoon journey where a GC train comes in from London, waits, and then goes off back in service to London – and in that instance, it lays over in Bradford for about 1h20.
At all other times, the trains are either coming from the depot near Wakefield at the start of the day's service, or heading back to the depot at the end of the day's service, but it is still regularly hanging around in Bradford for half an hour or more. If everything runs according to plan, there will be a GC train watching the world go by at Bradford for about a third of the time. With 9tph Northern services from Bradford Interchange, it doesn't feel like they should struggle to accommodate them even if only 3 platforms are available – the bigger blocker will be the Huddersfield service which sits there for 30 minutes every hour.

 

[357]

GC seem to always be occupying at least one of them.

05:44–06:58 (1h 14m)
08:34–08:57 (23m)
09:59–10:39 (40m)
14:23–15:41 (1h 18m)
16:23–16:58 (35m)
19:36–19:56 (20m)
22:46–23:22 (36m)

Just over 5 hours of the day sees a GC scheduled in the station.

The bigger issue isn't the direct service to London offered by GC but the reluctance to work permissively at BDI.

Points to note: after the the first London service arrives ECS, from memory one of the Huddersfield trains comes into platform 4 and departs before the GC. There is no reason why that could not come on top of the GC.

It's not GC that decide to block up platforms at all - paths are bid for and approved.

Where platform occupation issues are identified at Kings Cross, trains are regularly sent on a jolly to Hornsey and back (other locations are available). If that was an issue here then the GC units would likely go to Holbeck Curves or shunt into one of the two sidings at Bradford. No such issues have been identified.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

I'd argue that Bradford doesn't really need GC now it has the 1p2h LNER service from Forster Sq

There are still reasonable loadings on the GC services from Bradford and they haven't really changed too much with the LNER service.

And if course the other stations haven't been affected at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

Obviously the real cause of this problem was the demolition of Exchange station in 1973.

Exactly.

 

[Palmerston]

I would say the service to London is a benefit but also a burden. The fact there is a service at all, reduces the impetus to provide a much better one. Having a low frequency and slow service (from two separate stations) means the 'London connection' isn't giving the benefit it could. Darlington has 300,000 annual journeys to Kings Cross while Hull has 160,000. These compare to 55,000 from Bradford. If a regular hourly, quick service was in place the numbers would increase very significantly. How you get that quicker, regular service is another matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say the service to London is a benefit but also a burden. The fact there is a service at all, reduces the impetus to provide a much better one. Having a low frequency and slow service (from two separate stations) means the 'London connection' isn't giving the benefit it could. Darlington has 300,000 annual journeys to Kings Cross while Hull has 160,000. These compare to 55,000 from Bradford. If a regular hourly, quick service was in place the numbers would increase very significantly. How you get that quicker, regular service is another matter.

It would be easy enough to argue that the connectional service via Leeds using the frequent EMU services is perfectly adequate. You do not need direct services from everywhere to everywhere.

That's not to say I have a problem with the GC service (though I do have a problem with GC ) - but expecting every medium sized town/city in the entire UK to have a direct London service just isn't realistic. It is probably a parallel to Blackpool in a way.

 

[357]

I would say the service to London is a benefit but also a burden. The fact there is a service at all, reduces the impetus to provide a much better one. Having a low frequency and slow service (from two separate stations) means the 'London connection' isn't giving the benefit it could. Darlington has 300,000 annual journeys to Kings Cross while Hull has 160,000. These compare to 55,000 from Bradford. If a regular hourly, quick service was in place the numbers would increase very significantly. How you get that quicker, regular service is another matter.

It's also worth considering that making the Bradford - London journeys faster would likely come at the expense of other stations direct London services.

It's also worth noting that GC currently have applications with the ORR for further services but keep getting told there is no room.

So there is an impetus to provide a better service but no paths to do it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2026 ==

but expecting every medium sized town/city in the entire UK to have a direct London service just isn't realistic.

Agreed. The best way I've found to look at this issue on routes like the ECML is at how busy the trains are before joining the mainline. GC tends to fill up to very respectable loadings before Doncaster giving a well used path to London

I've got to admit that on the other hand, using LNER there's often just a handful of people in the carriage

 

[321362]

Could GC run into Huddersfield rather than Bradford if LNER's Forster Square services were more frequent? It seems silly to have two different services from two different stations that largely just duplicate each other.

I'm aware that Halifax does deserve its London service (https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/odm/gbr/?dest=all&string_out=Halifax+[8411] King's Cross is the 4th most popular destination after Leeds, Bradford and Manchester) but I think Huddersfield needs it more, since currently it's Brighouse which has the London connection which is a way out of town and not as useful to the majority.

edit: If you add the Brighouse and Huddersfield destinations together London trips make up more than they do for Halifax

 

[MatthewHutton]

I would say the service to London is a benefit but also a burden. The fact there is a service at all, reduces the impetus to provide a much better one. Having a low frequency and slow service (from two separate stations) means the 'London connection' isn't giving the benefit it could. Darlington has 300,000 annual journeys to Kings Cross while Hull has 160,000. These compare to 55,000 from Bradford. If a regular hourly, quick service was in place the numbers would increase very significantly. How you get that quicker, regular service is another matter.

All of these are much higher than Blackpool which has 30,000 one way trips to London.

 

[YorksLad12]

Could GC run into Huddersfield rather than Bradford if LNER's Forster Square services were more frequent? It seems silly to have two different services from two different stations that largely just duplicate each other.

LNER was going to extend some services from Leeds to Huddersfield. Those plans will be pushed back 10-ish years if they happen at all, thanks to the pandemic and TRU. I did get a photo one evening while waiting to go home though...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could GC run into Huddersfield rather than Bradford if LNER's Forster Square services were more frequent? It seems silly to have two different services from two different stations that largely just duplicate each other.

I'm aware that Halifax does deserve its London service (https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/odm/gbr/?dest=all&string_out=Halifax+[8411] King's Cross is the 4th most popular destination after Leeds, Bradford and Manchester) but I think Huddersfield needs it more, since currently it's Brighouse which has the London connection which is a way out of town and not as useful to the majority.

edit: If you add the Brighouse and Huddersfield destinations together London trips make up more than they do for Halifax

Once the rebuild is completed there would probably be space for GC at Huddersfield, depending on time of day and what the pattern of services on the slow lines looks like. However it might require the 7th platform (which the current plan is only providing passive provision for) depending on turnaround times- though stabling at Hillhouse may be an option.

 

[Noddy]

I would say the service to London is a benefit but also a burden. The fact there is a service at all, reduces the impetus to provide a much better one. Having a low frequency and slow service (from two separate stations) means the 'London connection' isn't giving the benefit it could. Darlington has 300,000 annual journeys to Kings Cross while Hull has 160,000. These compare to 55,000 from Bradford. If a regular hourly, quick service was in place the numbers would increase very significantly. How you get that quicker, regular service is another matter.

I’m sure GC would very happily provide an hourly service from Bradford if they were granted the paths. It’s also likely that Arriva would be prepared to invest in the station infrastructure if they were given guaranteed long term track access rights.

On the other hand LNER would no doubt be absolutely aghast at the prospect of running an hourly service. I also suspect the future GBR will happily cut Bradford back to a token service or scrap it altogether when money gets a bit tight, just as BR did.

 

[357]

Could GC run into Huddersfield rather than Bradford if LNER's Forster Square services were more frequent? It seems silly to have two different services from two different stations that largely just duplicate each other.

Im sure GC have applied to Huddersfield before and it never got anywhere?

I don't think it's silly. If the only purpose of a train service was end to end journeys then we would never have any intermediate calling points.

Perhaps one day Huddersfield could see a GC service to London, potentially coupling to the Bradford mid-route.

 

[stevieinselby]

It would be easy enough to argue that the connectional service via Leeds using the frequent EMU services is perfectly adequate. You do not need direct services from everywhere to everywhere.
...
but expecting every medium sized town/city in the entire UK to have a direct London service just isn't realistic.

The Bradford urban area itself has a population of approaching 400,000, or over 500,000 if you're looking at the wider metropolitan borough – not exactly a "medium sized town/city" but definitely a large city.

 

[Bayum]

And if it wasn't for Grand Central, would LNER have increased their London services beyond the token daily train in an attempt to get rid of the competition to allow them to hike advance fares to Wakefield?

(Because afterall when it's cheaper to buy a London - Wakefield advance & a walk-up single from Wakefield to Leeds compared to London to Leeds, something is amiss)

Was this not part of the scheme to reduce long layovers at the platforms in Leeds?

 

[357]

Lots of permissive working in use currently at Bradford. I guess there was disruption last night and units were stabled there.