I travelled from Milton Keynes to London Euston on Monday, 02/02 - On Sunday evening I purchase an advanced ticket for 03:30am to Euston (I work irregular hours) see attached ticket example. I used my Network Railcard which for an extra £0.60 gave me the option to "upgrade" to Anytime Day Single which states on the T&Cs that the ticket is valid to travel any time of day via any permitted route. Terrific I thought and proceeded to purchase. In the end I didn't need to travel at 03.30am but took a later train around 7am in the belief that my Anytime Day Single would be valid. I passed through the barriers at Milton Keynes and boarded. Approaching Euston a Revenue Officer scanned the ticket and informed me it wasn't valid because Network Railcard discount doesn't apply before 10am, I disputed this as the T&Cs stated the ticket was valid anytime of the day. I was issued a penalty fare notice, the attitude of the Revenue Officer was appalling but that is another thread. In a nutshell should I contest this fine? Ticket category attached.
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Anytime Day Single Ticket purchased on Trainline (same ticket also available on LNW App) using Network Railcard.
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We need to see the penalty fare notice in full. Redact personal details but we need to see dates, times, stations etc. Despite the below, there may be a technical issue with the penalty fare that gives you grounds to appeal.
Your ticket wasn’t valid because the Network Railcard wasn’t valid, even on an Anytime ticket. It’s confusing and catches a lot of people out. The Network Railcard FAQ says:
Your ticket wasn’t valid because the Network Railcard wasn’t valid, even on an Anytime ticket. It’s confusing and catches a lot of people out. The Network Railcard FAQ says:
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WesternLancer
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I don’t think the t&c s of the ticket over ride the t&c of the Railcard.
FWIW a Penalty Fare is the least worst sanction you can get for this sort of thing.
An appeal would be worth making if the Penalty Fare was not correctly issued in the circumstances. Others will advise on that. An appeal based on it being ‘unreasonable’ won’t succeed.
Be mindful of the prompt payment discount. An appeal pauses the clock on that.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Network Railcard is not valid for travel before 10am. In the electronic restrictions this is implemented as 0430-0959 hence why it comes up as valid on the 0330 (and thus it can be used on that train with that itinerary as an itinerary has been issued for it and that gives contractual validity). The ticket is called an Anytime Day Single but the Railcard modifies its conditions. The Penalty Fare was therefore on the face of it correct.
Arguably no sales site shows particularly well that this is the case. I've not seen one that does, but you're expected as a Railcard holder to know the Railcard's restrictions and you've signed (virtually or physically) to say you do.
Therefore, the only chance of getting out of this is if there is a technical error with the issue of the Penalty Fare. If you post it we can advise if there is.
Arguably no sales site shows particularly well that this is the case. I've not seen one that does, but you're expected as a Railcard holder to know the Railcard's restrictions and you've signed (virtually or physically) to say you do.
Therefore, the only chance of getting out of this is if there is a technical error with the issue of the Penalty Fare. If you post it we can advise if there is.
Many thanks to your responses, got your point that the t&c of the ticket don't overide the t&c of the railcard but when it states on the TOC T&Cs that there are no time restrictions on this ticket, see attached, then I believed I had purchased a ticket with value and not deliberately tried to avoid a fare. I basically feel like I've been duped.
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WesternLancer
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You won’t be the first person with that view.
No harm in appealing with that. I just don’t think it will be upheld.
That’s perfectly understandable but very unlikely to win an appeal. But if you show us the penalty fare you might have a technical ground to appeal on.
There is no time restriction on the ticket.
There is a time restriction on when you can use your Network Railcard. You were going to use it at the correct time (03:30) but then used it when it wasn't valid to be used.
If you had an Anytime single without the NR, it would have been valid. Understandably you believe you had a valid ticket, but unfortunately you did not. Chalk it up as a lesson learnt to be aware of the time restrictions of your Railcard, as frustrating as that may feel.
WesternLancer
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If you can’t do it as a new member you can report post to mods and they will help
Please upload a redacted copy of the Penalty Fare notice.
There are several angles to this.
One starting point is NRCOT 9.5 under which you should have been charged the difference:
You should therefore appeal quoting this (and perhaps with other arguments too), all three times if need be.
If you still lose, you could also take it up with the retailer as a case of misselling and ask them to reimburse you for the penalty due to the incorrect information they gave you.
Or you could take the view that the additional restriction is unenforceable as it was not given sufficient prominence at the time of purchase and no further payment is due and no penalty applied.
Reproduce the booking process you went through, as a video if possible, and show that you were (presumably) not informed of the restriction in violation of the NRCOT 2.3
The description of "Anytime" could not be clearer. They knew you were using a railcard when showing you that text yet did not qualify the description with a footnote saying it's a lie because you're using a railcard.
I put this in the same category as the "minimum fare" debacle a couple of years ago - where, after a lot of publicity, they eventually backed down. See for example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dy8l8edpxo
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It sounds like you were as are many other people probably on a daily basis!
A ticket marked 'Anytime' is obviously valid at any time! Any exceptions to that must be so prominent that the purchaser can be left in no doubt as to their existence or they risk being impossible to enforce.
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Is your railcard paper or electronic? When you view it what does it state about its time restrictions? How does this deal with the nuance that it was seemingly valid to use it before 10am on a weekday?
There are several angles to this.
One starting point is NRCOT 9.5 under which you should have been charged the difference:
You should therefore appeal quoting this (and perhaps with other arguments too), all three times if need be.
If you still lose, you could also take it up with the retailer as a case of misselling and ask them to reimburse you for the penalty due to the incorrect information they gave you.
Or you could take the view that the additional restriction is unenforceable as it was not given sufficient prominence at the time of purchase and no further payment is due and no penalty applied.
Reproduce the booking process you went through, as a video if possible, and show that you were (presumably) not informed of the restriction in violation of the NRCOT 2.3
The description of "Anytime" could not be clearer. They knew you were using a railcard when showing you that text yet did not qualify the description with a footnote saying it's a lie because you're using a railcard.
I put this in the same category as the "minimum fare" debacle a couple of years ago - where, after a lot of publicity, they eventually backed down. See for example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dy8l8edpxo
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It sounds like you were as are many other people probably on a daily basis!
This is just the railway attempting to play with semantics to avoid spending money on its retail and ticketing systems so they correctly inform purchasers of the restrictions on validity that were intended to apply buried in the small print.
A ticket marked 'Anytime' is obviously valid at any time! Any exceptions to that must be so prominent that the purchaser can be left in no doubt as to their existence or they risk being impossible to enforce.
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Is your railcard paper or electronic? When you view it what does it state about its time restrictions? How does this deal with the nuance that it was seemingly valid to use it before 10am on a weekday?
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While I agree with @furlong, OP should be aware that the railway is very unlikely to accept any of those arguments.
You should appeal anyway as it both stops the clock on the reduced payment deadline and (should) stop them prosecuting. If all 3 appeals are denied you have a number of options if you still want to contest it. There are a few cases on here with similar situations but iirc basically: try transport focus, pay up then sue them for it back, leave it unpaid and defend it if they sue you for it. The last option being the most risky since they might cancel the PF and prosecute you instead (even though this would be unlawful imo).
Tbh in this case the railway's practice is fairly clear even if you or I think it's unfair so I don't rate your chances with any of these options. As @SCDR_WMR says the easiest options is to just chalk it up as a mistake.
You should appeal anyway as it both stops the clock on the reduced payment deadline and (should) stop them prosecuting. If all 3 appeals are denied you have a number of options if you still want to contest it. There are a few cases on here with similar situations but iirc basically: try transport focus, pay up then sue them for it back, leave it unpaid and defend it if they sue you for it. The last option being the most risky since they might cancel the PF and prosecute you instead (even though this would be unlawful imo).
Tbh in this case the railway's practice is fairly clear even if you or I think it's unfair so I don't rate your chances with any of these options. As @SCDR_WMR says the easiest options is to just chalk it up as a mistake.
Had the OP not selected the 3am train, which was a valid itinerary there would be no issue.
Their issue is because they did not travel on the itinerary they were planning. Had they tried to purchase said ticket for the actual train they caught, they would not have been able to apply the Network Railcard.
That isn't an issue with the retail system, that's an unfortunate situation where the OP changed their itinerary to one that wasn't valid (unbeknownst to them)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I do sort of sympathise in that "Anytime" is a misleading name in this context. An interesting question is whether the original poster would have been confused if it was called "Flex" instead or something.
I do think it would be worth retailers improving this e.g. by adding a yellow banner "RAILCARD RESTRICTIONS APPLY".
Nonetheless the Penalty Fare is correct for the situation (there is no entitlement to excess away a Railcard discount).
Only if the ticket is dated the preceding day, which we know these systems can't handle properly. Then 3am would be after 10am in the (extended) railway day.
A ticket dated the same day is absolutely not valid until 10am under condition 4.2 of the railcard. If they didn't want to fix the retail systems to issue tickets for the preceding day, then all they needed to do was update that railcard condition to make the restriction 4.30am to 10am instead of midnight to 10am but they have obviously chosen not to do this. (Many a time after midnight a late night ticket office used to issue me with discounted tickets dated the preceding day for this reason - standard practice without ever having to specifically ask.)
The system gave no indication that they needed to revalidate any alternative itinerary.
Read those words again: "Travel any time of day". No caveats whatsoever! What could be clearer?
It is a longstanding issue with multiple retail systems for which no passenger should be penalised. These tickets should be accepted without further payment or penalty until such time as the retail systems are fixed to display the intended validity in compliance with consumer and contract law. The system already knows there's a railcard involved so why couldn't it show an alternative line of text that correctly summarises the railcard restriction in place of the incorrect "Travel any time of day"?
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So I detect some cherry-picking here!
A ticket dated the day of travel with a network railcard is absolutely not valid for travel at 3am under the terms and conditions of the railcard.
However, because the retail system has incorrectly informed the purchaser it was valid for travel at 3am, it must be treated as valid contractually.
In just the same way, the retail system has incorrectly informed the purchaser it was valid for travel any time of day, so it must similarly be treated as valid contractually.
You can't say in the first case the retail system overrides the railcard conditions, yet in the second case the railcard conditions override the retail system!
In both cases information provided at (or after) the time of purchase upon which the purchaser relied would be expected to be binding on the company.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The Railcard restrictions are set up electronically as from 0430 (you can see them on brfares.com). As a result, because an itinerary is issued, it's contractually valid for that sold itinerary regardless of whether it should have been sold or not.
Ticket inspections on the WCML are pretty much nonexistent at that time anyway.
I suspect updating the text on the Railcard materials is just one of those "didn't think of that" things, simply because there is so little of the railway where one can actually start a journey between 0001 and 0429, though admittedly most such places are within the Network Railcard area. And of the people who are starting a journey at that time, almost none of them are doing so on an outward portion. And of the ones who are, almost none of them are doing so without an itinerary. Thus this presumed oversight is probably affecting very few people, and if you add into that the low chance of a ticket inspection at those times it becomes a bit of a non issue.
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An itinerary is contractual. The brand name of a ticket is not.
Edit: That "travel any time of day" note might well be, though. The poster would have to seek legal advice about whether they could sue Trainline for the cost of the Penalty Fare minus the difference between the discounted and full Anytime fare (because that's Trainline's mistake in putting a misleading line there, which should really say something like "Travel any time of day, subject to conditions of your Railcard"). The trouble is that it probably isn't worth taking paid legal advice over about £60, it's hardly even worth the Small Claims Track fee given the risk of losing.
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But at the same time, a physical Network Railcard has "Not valid before 10:00 Mondays to Fridays" printed on it, and it's in the Terms & Conditions that you agree to when buying one (either at a Ticket Office or Online.)
I don't have a Network Railcard to hand, but the analogous restriction isn't at all obvious on my digital 16-25 Railcard (in the TrainSplit app) - it's there, but I have to click an "info" button in the top right.
I'm far from an expert on UK consumer law - hence the question - but I would hope that there's a protection against selling products with prominent unambiguous claims contradicted by fine print.
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Whenever and wherever you purchased your Network Railcard you would have been made aware of all the conditions of its use in order for the discount to be valid. It would have been your choice if you didn't read them.
It’s exactly the same with other railcards, I can buy two all line rovers with a Two Together Railcard and I know we can’t use them before 09:30 on weekdays, just as one example.
It’s about reading and understanding the terms and conditions of using a railcard, rather than not bothering or forgetting or inventing different rules.
Yes, it’s complicated. As are other things in life.
It’s about reading and understanding the terms and conditions of using a railcard, rather than not bothering or forgetting or inventing different rules.
Yes, it’s complicated. As are other things in life.
How true, but for 33% discount and protection against expensive mistakes its well worth reading what you have agreed to.
Consumer law means that the retailer must provide their services with reasonable care and skill. I don't think that test would be met here, they know that the ticket is being sold alongside a railcard and they are in a better position to understand how retailing of rail tickets works. That may mean a civil claim against the retailer would be successful.
Unfortunately I'm not convinced that this makes a difference to a prosecution as the offence is strict liability.
Unfortunately I'm not convinced that this makes a difference to a prosecution as the offence is strict liability.
It is complicated but it need not be. I agree with everything @Alex C. has said above.
It really isn't hard to warn users of the restrictions; if you purchased an ALR at a ticket office with a 2Together railcard you'd absolutely expect the clerk to inform you of the extra restriction beyond the standard ALR exclusions.
I’m not disagreeing, either, but last time I bought an ALR from a ticket office the clerk had never heard of the ticket, so getting him to be able to issue it at all was my main focus! Of course, I happened to know about the 09:30 restriction also.
Yet the system has disregarded that condition and nevertheless issued them a ticket with the discount with an itinerary for travel at 3am which is before 10:00! How is a typical passenger expected to behave? Even the printed restriction forgets the qualification that it's wrong if it's a Bank Holiday and assumes you understand how the extended railway day works! The worst that should have happened in this situation was a request to pay the difference under NRCOT 9.5, and even that should have been waived on presentation of the evidence of the flaw in Trainline's system.
Meanwhile I still think the railcard condition should be updated to match the electronic restriction.
Adam Williams
Established Member
And for the avoidance of any doubt (and as I suspect you may have guessed), the placement of this button and its behaviour is stipulated by Rail Delivery Group.
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