Alternatives to the new refund rules for flexible fares?

[AdamWW]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #8 originally in this thread.

I really quite strongly object to the loss of flexibility on what are premium priced tickets which I purchase precisely because they are flexible, just because we have an issue with guards failing to get round and scan tickets that have been used, particularly on WMT where a check is still very rare.

It does rather feel as if there might be a workable solution that's a bit more passenger friendly.

If they're playing the "it's what other countries do" card, maybe one could point them to countries where the staff are a bit more diligent about ticket checking?

Aside from that, I wonder if a refund route with a bit more friction might be enough.

I suspect that far more people get a refund on unscanned but used e-tickets by clicking a button than would go to a ticket office or post a physical ticket off for a refund.

If you just required people to give a plausible reason for not travelling and didn't ask questions whatever you got, it might be enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

I presume it's to try and reduce the potential fraud of someone travelling with an e-ticket with no checks at either station or on the train submitting it for a refund after travel saying they changed their mind etc. Probably more so for the more expensive anytime tickets if barriers are thrown open at the destination station due to overcrowding.

Indeed but it's a solution with a potentially large impact on those who do pay for their tickets.

And it does seem a shame that while e-tickets have many advantages for passengers as well as the railway, they've led to this situation arising.

 

[Haywain]

I presume it's to try and reduce the potential fraud of someone travelling with an e-ticket with no checks at either station or on the train submitting it for a refund after travel saying they changed their mind etc.

It probably is but I object to punishing the many for the sins of the few.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does rather feel as if there might be a workable solution that's a bit more passenger friendly.

If they're playing the "it's what other countries do" card, maybe one could point them to countries where the staff are a bit more diligent about ticket checking?

Aside from that, I wonder if a refund route with a bit more friction might be enough.

I suspect that far more people get a refund on unscanned but used e-tickets by clicking a button than would go to a ticket office or post a physical ticket off for a refund.

If you just required people to give a plausible reason for not travelling and didn't ask questions whatever you got, it might be enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==



Indeed but it's a solution with a potentially large impact on those who do pay for their tickets.

And it does seem a shame that while e-tickets have many advantages for passengers as well as the railway, they've led to this situation arising.

I think it's something that could be solved a different way, yes. I note using DB's example that they charge a relatively high fee for on the day refunds (EUR30) but no fee before the day of travel. I think that would be a reasonable compromise given that much of the issue is people refunding lows value tickets on Trainline which has a sliding scale of fees so you always get something back. £30 is a lot, but if you're talking about a £350 fare it's collateral damage.

There are lots of middle ground options bar "no, go away".

If this is mostly happening with low value fares for short journeys on Trainline, as I suspect it is, then just requiring all vendors to apply the £10 fee might even be enough!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

It probably is but I object to punishing the many for the sins of the few.

Not only the many, but people buying very expensive, premium tickets.

Losing a fiver is one thing, losing £350 is quite another.

 

[Haywain]

Not only the many, but people buying very expensive, premium tickets.

Especially when it's the low value tickets that are more likely to not be check during a (short) journey. As you say, a fee wouldn't be so bad - perhaps 20% subject to a minimum of around £10?

 

[LowLevel]

I think it's something that could be solved a different way, yes. I note using DB's example that they charge a relatively high fee for on the day refunds (EUR30) but no fee before the day of travel. I think that would be a reasonable compromise given that much of the issue is people refunding lows value tickets on Trainline which has a sliding scale of fees so you always get something back. £30 is a lot, but if you're talking about a £350 fare it's collateral damage.

There are lots of middle ground options bar "no, go away".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==



Not only the many, but people buying very expensive, premium tickets.

Losing a fiver is one thing, losing £350 is quite another.

I think it's using two extremes.

For one, I doubt a huge number of people refund the full whack several hundred people Anytime tickets on the day or after due to just not using them. A large amount of that kind of journey these days are made on Advance tickets and of that small proportion of tickets I imagine few of them are subject to refund requests.

On the other hand, I would expect cumulative refund fraud for lower value fares is huge. I know no end of people who freely admit refunding tickets if they don't get scanned.

I'm not saying it's good service, but I expect it will affect a tiny handful of people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not saying it's good service, but I expect it will affect a tiny handful of people.

It's not something I've done often, but it is good to have the ability to do it, particularly with single fare pricing increasingly in place.

 

[ainsworth74]

It does rather feel as if there might be a workable solution that's a bit more passenger friendly.

I think it's something that could be solved a different way, yes. I note using DB's example that they charge a relatively high fee for on the day refunds (EUR30) but no fee before the day of travel. I think that would be a reasonable compromise given that much of the issue is people refunding lows value tickets on Trainline which has a sliding scale of fees so you always get something back. £30 is a lot, but if you're talking about a £350 fare it's collateral damage.

If it was me I'd simply say that up until the date of travel tickets are fully refundable for no fee if done online or for £5 fee if done at a ticket office. Once the ticket is valid for travel then up to, say, seven days after its original validity began it can be exchanged, once, to be valid on another day for a small fee (say 10% of the face value capped at £5) and once exchanged cannot be refunded (excluding for the usual disruption based reasons).

This means that the current wheeze of refunding a ticket that wasn't checked is no longer possible as that ticket can only be exchanged to be valid on another date. As you are only allowed to exchange it once you also can't just keep exchanging the same ticket again and again until it's finally checked at a barrier or onboard. And an exchange gets rid of your refund ability as well meaning you can't exchange and then refund.

However it also protects the passengers interests as before travel if you have a change of heart you can just refund it and get your money back. Or if plans change on the day of travel you can exchange it to be valid on a different day so you don't have to just throw it away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it was me I'd simply say that up until the date of travel tickets are fully refundable for no fee if done online or for £5 fee if done at a ticket office. Once the ticket is valid for travel then up to, say, seven days after its original validity began it can be exchanged, once, to be valid on another day for a small fee (say 10% of the face value capped at £5) and once exchanged cannot be refunded (excluding for the usual disruption based reasons).

This means that the current wheeze of refunding a ticket that wasn't checked is no longer possible as that ticket can only be exchanged to be valid on another date. As you are only allowed to exchange it once you also can't just keep exchanging the same ticket again and again until it's finally checked at a barrier or onboard. And an exchange gets rid of your refund ability as well meaning you can't exchange and then refund.

However it also protects the passengers interests as before travel if you have a change of heart you can just refund it and get your money back. Or if plans change on the day of travel you can exchange it to be valid on a different day so you don't have to just throw it away.

That seems a fair compromise.

Or if it is mostly low value tickets, which I suspect it is, just whack up the fee and make it mandatory. I genuinely think a lot of the issue is Trainline charging a percentage based fee rather than the flat £5. And secondarily that £5 probably isn't enough to be a deterrent, but £20 might be, while still meaning you aren't losing a fortune if you find yourself unable to use an expensive fare on the day.

 

[ainsworth74]

That seems a fair compromise.

Well that's the kiss of death to my idea! The industry/DfT/HMT never believe in fair compromises only total victory for them and defeat for the passenger!

 

[Haywain]

Once the ticket is valid for travel then up to, say, seven days after its original validity began it can be exchanged, once, to be valid on another day for a small fee (say 10% of the face value capped at £5) and once exchanged cannot be refunded

This sounds much like the Advance refund rules, apart from the timing. Which is great if it's a regular journey but less so if it's a one off that you won't be likely to make again, or can't plan a date for within 7 days of the original.

 

[ainsworth74]

This sounds much like the Advance refund rules, apart from the timing.

I actually took my inspiration from SNCF that famous paragon of good customer service

Which is great if it's a regular journey but less so if it's a one off that you won't be likely to make again,

Indeed in that scenario you will likely still lose out but I reckon it's still fairer than just saying "Nope, we're very sorry your appointment in town was cancelled on the morning of travel but your ticket is now worthless".

or can't plan a date for within 7 days of the original.

I didn't mean imply that the exchanged ticket would have to be used within seven days, only that the application for the exchange would have to be made within seven days. I would propose that the exchanged ticket could be for travel anywhere within the usual sales window for a flexible ticket.

 

[blimmo]

The problem I see is that purchasing in advance is obviously strongly encouraged... until it suddenly isn't once advances no longer offer significant savings.

After these rule changes I'd really like a retailer to offer the ability to prepurchase the ticket (and go through all the payment process etc.) but not actually give me the eticket until I later request it. Then they could (hopefully, I don't know the accreditation rules) still offer fee-free or low-fee refunds as long as the ticket hadn't been "activated". I'm sure the argument against will be that this is too complicated but making online payments can take a while especially if the card issuer asks for authentication.

 

[Adam Williams]

The problem I see is that purchasing in advance is obviously strongly encouraged... until it suddenly isn't once advances no longer offer significant savings.

After these rule changes I'd really like a retailer to offer the ability to prepurchase the ticket (and go through all the payment process etc.) but not actually give me the eticket until I later request it. Then they could (hopefully, I don't know the accreditation rules) still offer fee-free or low-fee refunds as long as the ticket hadn't been "activated". I'm sure the argument against will be that this is too complicated but making online payments can take a while especially if the card issuer asks for authentication.

Would you expect a retailer to hold reservations for you, if it did this?

 

[Haywain]

I didn't mean imply that the exchanged ticket would have to be used within seven days, only that the application for the exchange would have to be made within seven days.

I understood that, I was just saying that 7 days may not be long enough to come up with alternative plans (for example, football matches being re-arranged).

I would propose that the exchanged ticket could be for travel anywhere within the usual sales window for a flexible ticket.

If you mean as credit for a different journey(s), then it makes more sense and removes most of the problem I have with the suggestion. Or they could just refund as vouchers. However, that wouldn't get rid of the short journey problem so an admin fee would still seem to be an appropriate part of the solution.

 

[signed]

I actually took my inspiration from SNCF that famous paragon of good customer service

The worst thing is the fee doesn't stop increasing, I found tickets from 2016 with a €3 fee if changed <= 3 days, now it's €19 if changed <= 6 days.

With the wish of the gov and SNCF anyways, 30% of all French TGV services will become non-refundable, and only changable if buying a €10 option at purchase time, in a few years as they switch to OUIGO.

Bit off-topic, but SNCF does have quite great customer support.
I have never had any issue regarding G30 (delay repay) compensation, including them:
- paying for a taxi and a meal deal multiple times
- a routing on a region's service (non RRB) bus to catch another train, paying the taxi on arrival as well.
- paying for people's taxis going to far destinations, served by region bus, at night, after disruption when they have no duty to do so...
- holding a TER for the massively delayed Rodalies at Cerbère so that people could catch up to the Night train we had missed. Especially knowing the touchy relationship with the Spanish. And that includes being allowed to travel even after having rushingly cancelled our tickets knowing we wouldn't make it.
On top of the food boxes, which are better than nothing, given on TGV once past 1h sitting
People on the ground at SNCF are honestly great, as usual it's the higher ups that messes with it

 

[AdamWW]

After these rule changes I'd really like a retailer to offer the ability to prepurchase the ticket (and go through all the payment process etc.) but not actually give me the eticket until I later request it. Then they could (hopefully, I don't know the accreditation rules) still offer fee-free or low-fee refunds as long as the ticket hadn't been "activated". I'm sure the argument against will be that this is too complicated but making online payments can take a while especially if the card issuer asks for authentication.

Ah. I was trying to think of some kind of way that an "activation" scheme could be implemented for tickets already downloaded, but that sounds like a much better approach.

After all it's presumably e-tickets that have caused the problem, so why not use e-tickets to fix it in a fair way?

I wouldn't have thought continuing to permit refunds on paper tickets would be much of a problem. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Incidentally e-tickets in some European countries already work like this - once you've generated the pdf a refundable ticket becomes non-refundable - so it even ties into the idea of coming in line with other countries argument...

Not so nice for advances where you have to choose at what point you download rather than taking the risk that something fails if you do it at the last minute, but not so bad for walk-up tickets where it you couldn't generate the ticket you would normally be able to just buy again at the same price.

 

[blimmo]

Would you expect a retailer to hold reservations for you, if it did this?

No, I am thinking of journeys that do not involve seat reservations at all.

 

[signed]

After these rule changes I'd really like a retailer to offer the ability to prepurchase the ticket (and go through all the payment process etc.) but not actually give me the eticket until I later request it. Then they could (hopefully, I don't know the accreditation rules) still offer fee-free or low-fee refunds as long as the ticket hadn't been "activated". I'm sure the argument against will be that this is too complicated but making online payments can take a while especially if the card issuer asks for authentication.

That already exists at öbb, if you download your PDF, your ticket is not modifiable

 

[AdamWW]

Would you expect a retailer to hold reservations for you, if it did this?

What would be the problem with this, as opposed to somebody buying a ticket with a reservation then being able to refund the ticket?

I can quite imagine that the refundable-until-ticket-generated scheme is impractical for a retailer to do off their own bat at present, but it sounds as if it's something that could (in the fullness of time, once people have had the chance to re-program systems, etc. etc.) become a requirement across the board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem I see is that purchasing in advance is obviously strongly encouraged... until it suddenly isn't once advances no longer offer significant savings.

After these rule changes I'd really like a retailer to offer the ability to prepurchase the ticket (and go through all the payment process etc.) but not actually give me the eticket until I later request it. Then they could (hopefully, I don't know the accreditation rules) still offer fee-free or low-fee refunds as long as the ticket hadn't been "activated". I'm sure the argument against will be that this is too complicated but making online payments can take a while especially if the card issuer asks for authentication.

It's a bit M-ticket-esque, but one option that did spring to mind for me was that, optionally, you could select not to download your e-ticket at purchase and instead download it once you were sure you would not want to refund it, and while it was not downloaded it could be refunded in full at any time.

It does I suppose pose a risk of fraud still though, in that people would just not download them until they saw the guard. But then that would be enforceable in the exact same way as buying an e-ticket, in that if it was downloaded after departure it would be considered invalid on that train.

 

[ainsworth74]

I understood that, I was just saying that 7 days may not be long enough to come up with alternative plans (for example, football matches being re-arranged).

Ah gotcha, I'd have no problem with a 28 day window to exchange (as with current refund rights) just figured the industry would be reluctant to agree considering how harsh the new rules are!

If you mean as credit for a different journey(s), then it makes more sense and removes most of the problem I have with the suggestion. Or they could just refund as vouchers. However, that wouldn't get rid of the short journey problem so an admin fee would still seem to be an appropriate part of the solution.

That's not what I was driving at. I meant you would quite literally be issued a replacement ticket for the same journey just on the new travel date. I think keeping an admin fee for anything post the start of validity is reasonable enough hence why I included one (and for a lot cheaper than what SNCF would charge when they do ticket exchanges 6 days or less before travel!).

The worst thing is the fee doesn't stop increasing, I found tickets from 2016 with a €3 fee if changed <= 3 days, now it's €19 if changed <= 6 days. With the wish of the gov and SNCF anyways, 30% of all French TGV services will become non-refundable, and only changable if buying a €10 option at purchase time, in a few years as they switch to OUIGO.

That would be worry for sure.

Bit off-topic, but SNCF does have quite great customer support.

I have never had any issue regarding G30 (delay repay), including them:
- paying for a taxi and a meal deal multiple times
- a routing on a region's service (non RRB) bus to catch another train, paying that taxi on arrival as well.
- paying for people going to far long destination served by region bus when they have no duty to do so...

Yes in fairness I've had similar good experiences. I managed to buy a ticket for use on an Intercités service for the wrong day, spotted it instantly and was able to exchange the ticket online instantly and got a small refund as my actual travel date was cheaper. And on a heavily delayed service I didn't incur any additional costs but they paid out the delay compensation quickly and with no quibble (despite the delay being outside their control, which I know can be a sticking point for some Continental operators). It was even pretty easy to apply for.

Perhaps I should revise my meanness about SNCF

 

[blimmo]

It does I suppose pose a risk of fraud still though, in that people would just not download them until they saw the guard.

If the "purchase time" encoded in the eticket became a "download time" this would not be a problem. It would need to be made clear to the customer that they had to download before boarding I suppose.

 

[AdamWW]

It's a bit M-ticket-esque, but one option that did spring to mind for me was that, optionally, you could select not to download your e-ticket at purchase and instead download it once you were sure you would not want to refund it, and while it was not downloaded it could be refunded at any time.

It does I suppose pose a risk of fraud still though, in that people would just not download them until they saw the guard.

At which point presumably it becomes obvious that the ticket wasn't downloaded before boarding and the usual penalties kick in.

Is it any worse than travelling on a pay-when-challenged basis?

Might need the NRCoT to be tweaked a little I suppose to avoid arguments over it being purhased before boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, I am thinking of journeys that do not involve seat reservations at all.

I can't see why I'd buy a walk up ticket in advance that didn't involve reservations, to be honest. When I go to London, because that's cheaper as two singles than a return, I buy the return once I know which train I'm taking home (primarily because it allows me to choose whether I'm going to Bletchley or MKC without paying over the odds for the longer journey if I may not want it). It does pose a small risk of having no rights in disruption, but knowing how the railway behaves in disruption at the moment I'm not sure you have any meaningful rights even if you do have a ticket bar the ability to claim Delay Repay.

 

[AdamWW]

If the "purchase time" encoded in the eticket became a "download time" this would not be a problem. It would need to be made clear to the customer that they had to download before boarding I suppose.

This all sounds like a practical idea in principle but I can quite imagine the costs of actually implementing it aren't justified when there's already a solution that's much better from the railway's point of view.

Besides which they'd be throwing away the revenue from people who currently get their money back just because they aren't able to travel...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

It does pose a small risk of having no rights in disruption, but knowing how the railway behaves in disruption at the moment I'm not sure you have any meaningful rights even if you do have a ticket bar the ability to claim Delay Repay.

Just the potential ability to get more out of them afterwards if you're willing to really push the point, I imagine.

 

[blimmo]

I can't see why I'd buy a walk up ticket in advance that didn't involve reservations, to be honest.

Downloading a ticket on the platform when you know you aren't going to miss it is a lot easier than doing the whole purchase flow.

 

[Adam Williams]

What would be the problem with this

Politics. You are not allowed to make and keep reservations without a valid ticket. Yes, I'm aware of what many train operators are doing here with tools that allow for exactly that.

From a technical perspective they're completely identical in terms of what happens with the reservation system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Besides which they'd be throwing away the revenue from people who currently get their money back just because they aren't able to travel...

I must admit that that no doubt does enter consideration and is very Ryanair.

I'm still of the view, though, that this is mostly going to be lowish value tickets and is mostly caused by Trainline giving you something back regardless of the ticket value (as they apply a percentage but max £5, not just a flat fee), and simply mandating the application of the admin fee and increasing it to say £20 if requested after validity starts (£0 if before as a compromise) would probably largely get rid of this fraud without ripping people off who find themselves unable to use an expensive long distance walk up fare they've booked in advance to get reservations on the day.

In effect what you're doing is caning premium long distance passengers to solve a problem that is largely based around people refunding singles to the nearest town on Trainline because they haven't been scanned (and secondarily people thinking refunds and Delay Repay are the same thing, so potentially not even wilful fraud). When we see these on Disputes, which we fairly often do, it's almost always low value tickets (though often large settlements because they've been at it for months), I don't even recall a single one involving something like a London-Edinburgh Anytime Single.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2026 ==

An Anytime Return is already valid for up to 5 days later without making any changes

Good point, I forgot about that. There are still some fairly high value Off Peaks though, and those are not. I've bought £160 Off Peaks before and I don't think the idea of losing that due to finding you need to go a day later is a very good way to make friends with customers.

but my understanding is the new rules only apply to refunds, so tickets can still be amended for £5.

Walk up tickets cannot be amended to a different date. You refund and repurchase. They can be excessed, but not to change the date.

Being able to amend the date instead of refund is another thing that would be a reasonable compromise, as that's the main use-case for this. Being able to only amend it once and by doing so forfeit the right to refund (as suggested above) would seem to fully solve the problem while dealing with most use cases.

Although I disagree with the changes most problems can be solved just by not buying in advance, I already buy my tickets immediately before travel anyway regardless of the distance. It does seem like from a fraud perspective this shouldn't be applied to uncollected ToDs or station-issued tickets returned within a reasonable time frame though.

Bit of an issue for people who want seat reservations though...

Wanting a decent reserved seat (priority seat with window view, or Coach A Seat 45 on a Pendolino specifically) is the main reason I purchase them in advance, as is wanting any reservation on a known busy train. I don't generally for journeys not involving reservations, and certainly won't once this policy comes into effect. Of course with LNER you can reserve a seat without a ticket (just make a ticket number up) but no other TOC offers that with seat selection, and they probably don't want to offer it, it's just that they can't practically do otherwise because there's no central database of paper tickets. I suspect they will want to get rid of that "feature" as soon as technology permits because people will be using it for all sorts of "naughty" purposes like attempting to block the seat next to them or opposite.

 

[Mainline421]

There's certainly a lot of fraud, but equally it is extremely bad to say to someone who's bought a 350 quid Anytime Return from Manchester to London and needs to travel tomorrow that they've lost all that money. This is in my view even more customer unfriendly than the LNER fare increase trial - a truly awful policy decision applying major restrictions to someone who has bought a premium priced ticket.

An Anytime Return is already valid for up to 5 days later without making any changes, but my understanding is the new rules only apply to refunds, so tickets can still be amended for £5.

Although I disagree with the changes most problems can be solved just by not buying in advance, I already buy my tickets immediately before travel anyway regardless of the distance. It does seem like from a fraud perspective this shouldn't be applied to uncollected ToDs or station-issued tickets returned within a reasonable time frame though.

 

[ainsworth74]

Although I disagree with the changes most problems can be solved just by not buying in advance, I akready buy my tickets immediately before travel anyway regardless of the distance.

Bit of an issue for people who want seat reservations though...