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Air India crash at Ahmedabad on flight towards Gatwick - 12/06/2025

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mpthomson

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An entirely unhelpful (but sadly almost inevitable) intervention from India's legal system...


If it's paywalled for people then India's Supreme Court has stated that the AAIB's view that the pilot operated the fuel switches was 'nasty' and that he wasn't to blame for the accident...
 
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AlterEgo

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To be exact, the media reporting was described as "nasty" in most sources I've seen, not the AAIB itself.
 

LYuen

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An entirely unhelpful (but sadly almost inevitable) intervention from India's legal system...


If it's paywalled for people then India's Supreme Court has stated that the AAIB's view that the pilot operated the fuel switches was 'nasty' and that he wasn't to blame for the accident...
This is a nasty reporting from Telegraph. Every other outlet reported that the court reiterate the preliminary report.

Sky
India's Supreme Court said the preliminary report into the Air India crash does not insinuate anything against the captain, but judges will consider a plea from the pilot's father for an independent investigation.
Reuters
India's top court said on Friday that a preliminary report on an Air India crash that killed 260 people in June does not insinuate anything against the captain, but it will hear a plea from the pilot's father on November 10 for an independent probe.

I think the court took the correct position. But look at how some media interpret this, shows that even if they did the right thing (i.e. let the investigation do their work independently), it will not stop the speculations.
 

mpthomson

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This is a nasty reporting from Telegraph. Every other outlet reported that the court reiterate the preliminary report.

Sky

Reuters


I think the court took the correct position. But look at how some media interpret this, shows that even if they did the right thing (i.e. let the investigation do their work independently), it will not stop the speculations.
India’s hugely corrupt legal system shouldn’t be anywhere near this for reasons that have been explained at length already.

That they’re interfering already means that the report will lack credibility.
 
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Cloud Strife

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The BBC also reported on this:


Nearly five months after a plane crash in India which killed 260 people, the investigation has become mired in controversy – with the country's Supreme Court the latest to weigh in.

Flight 171 was en route to London from Ahmedabad in western India on 12 June. It crashed into a building just 32 seconds after taking off. An interim report was released in July, but critics argue it unfairly focused on the actions of the pilots, diverting attention away from a possible fault with the aircraft.

On Friday, a judge in India's Supreme Court insisted that nobody could blame the aircraft's captain. His comments came a week after the airline's boss insisted there was no problem with the aircraft. During a panel discussion at the Aviation India 2025 summit in New Delhi in late October, Air India's chief executive Campbell Wilson admitted that the accident had been "absolutely devastating for the people involved, for the families of those involved, and the staff".

But he stressed that initial investigations by Indian officials, summed up in a preliminary report, had "indicated that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, the engines or the operation of the airline".

It's certainly becoming more and more problematic, what with people looking to take a shot at Boeing by coming up with theories that aren't backed up in the slightest. With India's Supreme Court now seemingly being determined to interfere in the investigation, the odds increase that the final report will be desperately lacking on information that the aviation community needs.
 

Jimini

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Some more info / insight from the WSJ:


First third(ish) of the article here:

Officials Clashed in Investigation of Deadly Air India Crash​

Tension, suspicion and poor communication between U.S. and Indian experts have marked the continuing inquiry into crash of Boeing 787 Dreamliner​

When two American black-box specialists landed in New Delhi in late June, urgent messages arrived on their phones.

Don’t go with the Indians, their colleagues told them.

Earlier that day, Indian authorities had told their American counterparts of a new plan to unlock the mysteries behind the first deadly crash involving a Boeing 787 Dreamliner.
They wanted the U.S. technical experts to take a late-night flight on a military plane and then drive to a remote area. At an aerospace company’s lab there, the experts were supposed to analyze flight-data and cockpit voice recorders pulled from the wreckage of the Air India jet that crashed nearly two weeks prior, killing all but one of the 242 on board.
But that plan for the recorders—commonly called the black boxes—worried Jennifer Homendy, a top U.S. transportation official. She and other American officials were concerned about the safety of U.S. personnel and equipment being taken to a remote location amid State Department security warnings about terrorism and military conflicts in the region.
The National Transportation Safety Board chairwoman made a flurry of calls, including to Sean Duffy, President Trump’s transportation secretary, as well as the chief executives of Boeing and engine-maker GE Aerospace.
At her request, the State Department sent embassy officials to intercept the NTSB recorder specialists at the airport, and the Americans stayed in Delhi.
The previously unreported episode marked a high point of tension between Indian government officials, who are leading the probe into the June 12 crash, and the American experts assisting them. The investigation has been marked by points of tension, suspicion and poor communication between senior officials of the two nations, according to interviews with more than a dozen people familiar with the probe and internal documents.
In June, in the crucial early days of the investigation, Homendy complained about delays in downloading data from the Air India flight and insisted Indian officials extract information from the Air India black boxes at their facility in Delhi or at the NTSB’s lab in Washington, according to the draft of an unsent letter from Homendy to Kinjarapu Ram Mohan Naidu, India’s minister of civil aviation, reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.
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Jennifer Homendy is the chairwoman of the National Transportation Safety Board. Kinjarapu Ram Mohan Naidu is India’s minister of civil aviation.jonathan ernst/Reuters; Sonu Mehta/Hindustan Times/Getty Images
“I urge you to give our team the best chance of success at helping your government understand what occurred on Air India Flight 171 and prevent it from happening again—our only goal,” she wrote.
Instead of sending the letter, she wound up making the same points in phone calls and also threatened to pull American support for the probe, according to people familiar with the matter. Indian officials relented and agreed to download the black-box data in Delhi instead of the remote lab.
The friction has been fed by each country’s high stakes in the investigation, which is continuing and could take a year or more. The private view among many American government and industry officials is that the evidence so far points to Air India Flight 171’s captain, Sumeet Sabharwal, who died in the event, having deliberately crashed the plane.
While some are optimistic Indian authorities will conduct a thorough and transparent probe, others said they worried the Indian government wouldn’t accept such a scenario, or would instead raise the prospect of aircraft or engine problems being major factors, as some countries have with other suspected pilot suicides that result in mass death.
Some Indian observers, meanwhile, have faulted the West for emphasizing pilot moves, whether accidental or intentional, and overlooking potential flaws in the American-made planes. Seven years ago, Boeing pointed to pilot and maintenance slip-ups while playing down problems with a faulty flight-control system in deadly crashes of its 737 MAX jets in Indonesia and Ethiopia. Accident investigators later determined the design flaws in the jet played major roles in the crashes, leading to a global grounding of the MAX fleet, as well as a federal criminal investigation, congressional probes and billions of dollars in costs for Boeing.
The Dreamliner, the model in the recent crash, is one of Boeing’s most successful products, giving it an edge over its European rival Airbus in the market for wide-body jets. The jets are popular among the world’s airlines and are commonly used on international, long-haul flights.
An association of Indian pilots called for a review of electrical systems on Boeing planes and the grounding of 787s operating in the country after an emergency power system deployed in early October on another Air India Dreamliner. The same system had deployed on the June flight that crashed. India’s aviation regulator asked Boeing for more information about unexpected deployments of the device.

Push for data​

Air India Flight 171 crashed shortly after takeoff from an airport in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad. The plane appeared to lose thrust before plummeting into a hostel for medical students. In all, 260 people died, including 19 on the ground.

While Indian officials are leading the crash probe, the NTSB has played a supporting role under international protocols because the jet and its engines were manufactured in the U.S. and American regulators certified it for passenger service. The U.S. agency led a team of investigators and technical experts that included representatives from the Federal Aviation Administration, Boeing and GE Aerospace.

But friction quickly surfaced after the first Americans arrived in Ahmedabad on June 15. Inside a government building at the airport, G.V.G. Yugandhar, chief of India’s Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau, wanted the Americans to know Indian authorities were capable of handling the complex probe. Yugandhar said India was a proud country and touted its new lab for reading black boxes in Delhi.

“We’re not a Third World country,” Yugandhar told them, according to people familiar with his remarks. “We can do anything you all can do. We have the same capabilities.”

Rescue officials carry a victim's body from the Air India Flight 171 crash site.
The plane crashed into a residential area, killing a total of 260 people. SAM PANTHAKY/AFP/Getty Images
At the crash site, Indian authorities initially wouldn’t let American investigators take their own photos of the wreckage, according to people familiar with the matter. They also moved some of the wreckage before U.S. investigators could examine it.

The Indian investigators also were proceeding with certain aspects of the probe in sequence, rather than concurrently.

The Americans thought the Indians weren’t prioritizing downloading and analyzing the black-box information. U.S. investigators thought that was the most important to exposing a broader safety threat, if one were to exist. The data could reveal the need for fast action, up to potentially grounding the Dreamliner fleet. In 2013, the FAA had halted flights of Dreamliners for about three months after a pair of battery fires.

A person familiar with India’s investigation process disputed that, and said officials pursued various aspects of the investigation simultaneously.

In the U.S., FAA and airline officials grew frustrated with the slow pace of information emerging from the investigation. “We’re champing at the bit to get the data,” one FAA official in Washington said at the time, as days stretched on after the crash without a black-box readout.

An analysis of the plane’s flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders was needed for investigators to determine why the engines appeared to lose thrust quickly after takeoff. When Indian investigators showed their U.S. counterparts the accident plane’s throttle assembly, the fuel-cutoff switches were in the run position, indicating the jet’s engines were getting fuel at the time of impact. Switches can move on impact, so investigators would need to check their position as reflected in the flight data.

Homendy attempted to reach out to her counterpart, Yugandhar, for updates on the black boxes, but her attempt went unanswered, according to people familiar with the matter. The NTSB also tried to set up a virtual meeting between Yugandhar and a U.S. safety official, but Yugandhar didn’t log on.

Indian authorities released little public information and limited access to the materials. False information, some apparently generated with artificial intelligence, filled the void online.

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Left, an example of undamaged fuel-control switches. Right, the damaged fuel-control switches from the Air India crash. Investigators studied the position of the switches in the wreckage and flight-data recorders.AAIB
Theories swirled among aviation experts about what might have led to the crash. Why did both the 787’s engines simultaneously lose thrust right after takeoff? Could fuel have been contaminated? Did computer systems in the highly automated wide-body jet somehow malfunction?

At one Western airline, officials sought to re-create the accident in a simulator but couldn’t. “Was it some weird electric quirk we didn’t know of?” said a person familiar with the airline’s tests. After seeing no other explanation, the person said, the officials wondered whether the Air India crew might have simply shut off the engines shortly after takeoff.
 

Cloud Strife

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Another day, and more adventures in India with the 787.


  • Major development in AI-171 mystery as Air India grounds a Boeing-787 after the fuel control switch shifted uncommanded to CUTOFF position in flight — precisely what happened seconds before the Ahmedabad tragedy last year.
An Air India Boeing 787 Dreamliner operating from London Heathrow to Bengaluru was grounded today, 2 February, after the crew reported that a fuel control switch moved from the normal “RUN” position to “CUTOFF”, a failure mode that can cut fuel supply to an engine and cause it to shut down.
The incident occurred on flight AI132, a scheduled flight from Heathrow, London, to Kempegowda International Airport in Bengaluru. According to Air India, the issue was flagged by the pilots, who reported a possible defect in the fuel control switch.
The airline immediately grounded the affected aircraft — a Boeing 787-8 with registration VT-ANX — as a precautionary measure and informed the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA). Boeing, the aircraft manufacturer, has been brought in for priority technical checks.
In a statement, Air India said: “We are aware that one of our pilots has reported a possible defect on the fuel control switch of a Boeing 787-8 aircraft. After receiving this initial information, we have grounded the said aircraft and are involving the OEM [original equipment manufacturer] to get the pilot’s concerns checked on a priority basis. The matter has been communicated to the aviation regulator, DGCA.”
The airline added that it had previously carried out fleet-wide inspections of fuel control switches on all its Boeing 787 aircraft following a DGCA directive issued last year, and that no anomalies were found at that time.

Echoes of the AI171 Crash
The development has drawn immediate attention because of its similarity to events described in the fatal crash of Air India flight AI171 on June 12, 2025.
That Boeing 787-8, operating from Ahmedabad to London, crashed shortly after take-off, killing 241 people on board and 19 people on the ground — a total of 260 fatalities. The accident remains one of the deadliest aviation disasters in recent years.
The preliminary investigation by the Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) revealed that fuel supply to both engines was cut off almost simultaneously seconds after departure. Cockpit voice recorder audio captured one pilot asking the other why the fuel switches had been moved to CUTOFF, with the second pilot responding that he had not done so.
Those findings led to widespread speculation which in many instances degenerated into calumny against the pilots—that the crash may have involved deliberate pilot action. In some quarters, this escalated into suggestions of pilot suicide.
Pilot associations and many aviation professionals strongly rejected such claims, describing them as premature, insensitive, and unsupported by evidence at the time. Alternative explanations were also discussed, including possible electrical disturbances, inadvertent switch movement, or a latent mechanical fault.

Renewed Scrutiny
Sunday’s incident has revived scrutiny of those alternative explanations.
Fuel control switches on the Boeing 787 are spring-loaded levers designed to remain securely locked in the RUN position once selected. An uncommanded movement to CUTOFF is considered a serious anomaly that could, under certain circumstances, lead to engine flameout in flight.

Safety Concerns Raised
Aviation safety groups have also flagged concerns. The Safety Matters Foundation stated that the left-engine fuel control switch on the aircraft involved in the latest incident reportedly failed twice to remain locked in the RUN position during engine start at Heathrow, drifting toward CUTOFF.
The group described the behaviour as “abnormal” and urged regulators and the airline to examine whether the issue could indicate a recurring or systemic problem.
Air India has reiterated that passenger and crew safety remains its top priority and that it is cooperating fully with the DGCA, AAIB, and Boeing.

What Comes Next
Regulators and investigators will now examine the reported defect in detail. Among the key questions under review are whether the incident represents an isolated malfunction or points to a broader design, manufacturing, or maintenance issue.
Investigators will also assess whether any similar vulnerabilities were identified or addressed after the 2025 crash, and whether the same failure mode could have contributed to the loss of both engines on AI171.
As investigations continue, the possibility of a mechanical explanation — previously dismissed by some — is likely to receive renewed attention. Further updates from the DGCA, AAIB, Boeing, and Air India are expected in the coming days.

To be blunt: I'm very cynical about this. I'm not going to go as far as suggesting that Air India have fabricated this incident, but I have my grave doubts, especially after this latest news from a few days ago:


India’s probe into last year’s Boeing Co. 787 jet crash is increasingly homing in on deliberate pilot action as the probable cause, according to people familiar with the findings, marking a concession by authorities previously resistant to that scenario.

Investigators have ruled out mechanical failure and not found evidence of sabotage either, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the findings aren’t yet public. This leaves pilot action as the strongest line of inquiry.

Regulation requires that a final report on the causes of the crash be issued by June — a year after the tragedy — and investigators plan to publish it ahead of that deadline, the people said. A trip to the US in December to analyze cockpit and flight data recordings marked one of the final stages of the investigation, they added.

The report’s definitive pronouncement on the cause is expected to draw a line under the June 12 tragedy, which saw the London-bound Dreamliner aircraft crash 32 seconds after takeoff from Ahmedabad. A preliminary report a month later concluded the engines shut down after fuel switches moved to the off position, but did not establish why or by whom.

The US trip by a team from India’s Aircraft Accidents Investigation Bureau was aimed at determining whether fuel switches were intentionally moved to cut-off position. The National Transportation Safety Board, which has the technology to analyze the distinctive sound these switches make when toggled manually, examined the recordings, though heavy cockpit noise during takeoff complicated the analysis, the people said.

Although Indian investigators previously found no evidence that would warrant action against the Boeing aircraft or its GE Aerospace engines, a Wall Street Journal report earlier suggested authorities resisted findings that pointed to pilot culpability.
If the final report lays clear blame on the pilot, it will likely receive backlash in India where the flight commander’s father and a pilots’ federation have petitioned the Supreme Court to block investigators from looking into the pilot-fault angle and called instead for an independent probe.
A spokesperson for the NTSB referred any questions about the investigation to AAIB. Requests for comments sent to the AAIB, India’s Ministry of Civil Aviation, and the Directorate General of Civil Aviation weren’t immediately answered.

Taboo Subject​

Murder-suicide by professional pilots remains a taboo subject. The Germanwings flight 9525 crash in 2015 — when co-pilot Andreas Lubitz deliberately nosedived into a mountain slope in the French Alps — is the most recent clear case. Earlier, US investigators pointed to likely intentional pilot action in the 1997 SilkAir flight 185 crash, though Indonesian authorities contested the finding.

Other disasters where pilot intervention has been under scrutiny include 2014’s Malaysia Airlines flight 370 and China Eastern flight 5735 in 2022, which killed 132 people and still has no final report, with authorities reportedly citing national security for withholding information.

Recordings from the doomed flight AI171 had previously suggested confusion in the cockpit, with one pilot asking the other why he had cutoff fuel and the other denying it. The preliminary report did not identify which of the pilots asked the other about the fuel switch. The preliminary crash report withheld the cockpit transcript from the crucial 10 seconds before impact, suggesting Indian authorities’ reluctance to assign blame to the pilots until the final report is complete.
Read: Ten Lost Seconds: The Ominous Gap in the Air India Crash

‘Oh S — !’​

The WSJ reported the captain remained calm while the first officer panicked, exclaiming “Oh s — !” in the final moments. The aircraft was under the control of First Officer Clive Kunder, with Captain Sumeet Sabharwal monitoring the flight.
The report also noted that Sabharwal did not pull back on the yoke in the final moments, while Kunder did so at the end.
The crash has weighed heavily on India’s aviation growth and passenger demand. Air India’s turnaround plan, which targeted operational profitability by the end of the current fiscal year, has been derailed, with the carrier now expected to post record losses for the year ending March 31, separate people familiar with the matter said earlier.
The mounting losses are now a concern for Air India’s owners, Tata Group and Singapore Airlines Ltd. The Indian conglomerate has begun scouting for a new Chief Executive Officer to replace Campbell Wilson, though the search may not conclude until the crash report is released, people familiar with the matter said earlier.

My commentary:

For me, the first story reads very much like something in response to the second story. It's hard to believe that out of over 1000 deliveries, only Air India have experienced something unique happening with the fuel switches, while no-one else has reported anything similar across a wide range of operators. It just doesn't sound plausible, especially given that we haven't heard a single word confirming that the fuel switches on any 787 have been found to move by themselves, while pilots have confirmed that these switches are simply not moving by themselves, even with pressure applied unless they're operated correctly.

The problem is that we're now seeing massive interference in the investigation, not only by the Indian media, but also by the Indian Supreme Court and the Indian pilots association. The situation in the first story apparently happened, then they flew on for 8 hours (!) after identifying it. It doesn't add up, and it screams of something invented to take the attention away from the second story.

But speaking of the Indian Supreme Court...


Supreme Court to hear Air India crash plea early as NGO flags silence from govt, AAIB

The batch of petitions, includes one filed by 91-year-old Pushkar Raj Sabharwal, the father of Commander Sumeet Sabharwal, one of the pilots on the ill-fated aircraft.

The Supreme Court on Wednesday (January 28, 2026) agreed to give a short date of hearing in petitions seeking an independent, judicially-monitored probe into the reasons behind the Air India Flight 171 crash at the Ahmedabad Airport, killing 12 crew members and 229 passengers on June 12, last year.

The case was listed before a Bench headed by Chief Justice of India Surya on January 28. The batch of petitions, includes one filed by 91-year-old Pushkar Raj Sabharwal, the father of Commander Sumeet Sabharwal, one of the pilots on the ill-fated aircraft, the Federation of Indian Pilots, and an NGO, Safety Matters Foundation.

Advocate Prashant Bhushan, appearing for the NGO, made an oral mentioning that the Bench may not be able to hear the case on Thursday (January 29, 2026) as petitions challenging the Special Intensive Revision (SIR) exercise were scheduled later in the day.

Mr. Bhushan submitted that there has been no responses from the Union government or the Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) on the petitions filed in the Supreme Court.

“The pilots are saying the 787s are totally unsafe. That there is an electronic problem. A Court of Inquiry has to be appointed,” Mr. Bhushan submitted.

The petitioners have argued previously that they had not moved the apex court to “apportion blame” but to unearth “what” caused the accident and to safeguard the future against such tragedies. The court had also made it clear that the purpose of an AAIB inquiry under Section 4C of the Aircraft Act 1934 and the Aircraft (Investigation of Accidents and Incidents) Rules, 2017 was not to assign blame.

Mr. Sabharwal had approached the court, shocked by the “nasty” reportage about his son and rumours of pilot error. He had argued that the AAIB investigation was flawed.

His petition had followed a preliminary report, published in the media, containing what was believed to be a brief verbal exchange between the two pilots, caught on the flight’s black box. In this, one of them had reportedly asked about the fuel switch being cut off, while the other had replied he had not switched it off. The reason for the crash was said to be the sudden stoppage of the fuel supply to both the engines.

The Union government, represented by Solicitor General Tushar Mehta, had submitted that the investigation was in compliance with international conventions and mandatory steps required by the International Civil Aviation Organisation to be taken in cases of air accidents. He said there was a statutory regime under Section 4C in place. The government cannot turn its back on the law. Besides, he said, foreign nationals were killed in the accident, which made it all the pertinent that India followed international standards.

The good thing here is that it seems that both the Indian government and the AAIB appear to be ignoring these people. The pilot union can hardly be taken seriously at this point, because if they were really so unsafe, they wouldn't be flying the planes. It's also notable that no other pilot union has made such claims.
 

TravelDream

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To be blunt: I'm very cynical about this. I'm not going to go as far as suggesting that Air India have fabricated this incident, but I have my grave doubts, especially after this latest news from a few days ago:

For me, the first story reads very much like something in response to the second story. It's hard to believe that out of over 1000 deliveries, only Air India have experienced something unique happening with the fuel switches, while no-one else has reported anything similar across a wide range of operators. It just doesn't sound plausible, especially given that we haven't heard a single word confirming that the fuel switches on any 787 have been found to move by themselves, while pilots have confirmed that these switches are simply not moving by themselves, even with pressure applied unless they're operated correctly.

Hate to say this, but can't disagree here.

The whole thing is just bizarre.
If the switches do have issues, why is only Air India having them? Boeing has used this type of design for decades and the 737 Max switches are near identical. 1000s and 1000s of aircraft have them.
If the switch was actually faulty and didn't latch in place properly, why the hell did they continue to Bangalore? It is a critical system failure and under no circumstances should they have continued. Correct action would have been to be pulled back onto stand and get the engineers out. Even the most poorly trained/ laziest/ most incompetent crew should have basic self-preservation instincts that that isn't right - especially at an airline which has 'issues' with said switches.

That just leads to your point about it being fabricated.
 

Cloud Strife

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If the switch was actually faulty and didn't latch in place properly, why the hell did they continue to Bangalore? It is a critical system failure and under no circumstances should they have continued. Correct action would have been to be pulled back onto stand and get the engineers out. Even the most poorly trained/ laziest/ most incompetent crew should have basic self-preservation instincts that that isn't right - especially at an airline which has 'issues' with said switches.

It's even more unrealistic when you consider that the pilots (allegedly!) say that the 787 is unsafe. You'd think that if this was genuinely the case, then they would immediately shut the plane down and get it checked by ground crews at Heathrow. Being cynical, I'd suggest that the reason it wasn't done is because the UK would have to investigate it.

I checked the flight path, and the plane flew a route that would be exceptionally risky with a switch that was malfunctioning in such a way: through Turkey, down through the eastern side of Iraq, over the Persian Gulf and then out over the Arabian Sea. The plane wasn't tracked for part of the route over the Arabian Sea as well, so if they had an emergency there, it might have ended badly.

And of course, just so coincidentally, the plane was only scheduled to fly a domestic route from Bangalore to Delhi and back before doing another long haul flight. Very convenient when you want to make some sort of statement, as they wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of cancelling a long haul flight.

A picture of the tech log has been published too:

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I used Google Gemini to try and transcribe it:

Defect Report / Maintenance Entry (Left Column)​

This section contains the complaints written by the pilot:

1) A/C [Aircraft] moving to left
2) LEFT FUEL CONTROL SWITCH SLIPS FROM RUN TO CUT OFF WHEN PUSHED DOWN SLIGHTLY. IT DOES NOT LOCK IN ITS POSITION
(Note: There is a signature and date written over the next line, appearing to read "Nil Defects C/F" - meaning "Carried Forward")
3) EOT 06.00 MIN

Signature Block (Next to the defect):

  • Signature: [Illegible signature]
  • Auth No: 5912
  • Date/Time: 21/2/16 06:43 (Date appears to be February 21, 2016)

Crew Details (Bottom Left Box)​

  • P1 (Captain): KUMAR GAURAV
  • P2 (First Officer): KUNAL CHAUDHARI
  • P3: ANUP MEHTA

Header Information (Top Section)​

  • Airline: AIR INDIA
  • Aircraft Registration: VT-ANF (This registration belongs to a Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner).
  • From: DEL (Delhi)
  • To: BLR (Bangalore) (Hard to read, but looks like BLR)
  • Date: 21 FEB 16
Original source: https://avherald.com/h?article=5342238e

I'd take the dates here with a pinch of salt as it's an AI transcription, but the tech log as a whole is clear: the switch isn't locking in position. On PPRuNe, they confirm that the plane left only 14 minutes late, which would be nowhere near long enough to get it checked by someone on the ground. So either they flew with a broken switch which most definitely isn't permitted, or they made it up. Either scenario is quite damning, as these switches were supposedly all checked last year. The switches themselves can be easily replaced by a mechanic, and from what I understand, it wouldn't be much of an issue to get it done in Heathrow. There are quite a lot of 787s based at Heathrow, it's a major hub, the spare parts would be available there or easily obtainable, and yet they chose to fly on without even having a local mechanic look at it?

And all this happened just as the media was reporting that the accident investigation is leaning towards deliberate action of one of the pilots?

Also worth pointing out that the captain is an Air India lifer with nearly 20 years of experience at the airline. Exactly the kind of person who can be told quietly that given the media attention, he needs to report a potentially broken switch to change the narrative. Or exactly the kind of person who has his eye on a Chief Pilot position and knows that a cancellation of a domestic flight is no big deal for Air India.

I think the only thing here is that there are serious questions over Air India's competence if this story is true.
 

edwin_m

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It's possible there's a one in a million chance of this switch moving by itself if, say, the latching mechanism is faulty. But both of them doing so within a few seconds?
 

pug1

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It's even more unrealistic when you consider that the pilots (allegedly!) say that the 787 is unsafe. You'd think that if this was genuinely the case, then they would immediately shut the plane down and get it checked by ground crews at Heathrow. Being cynical, I'd suggest that the reason it wasn't done is because the UK would have to investigate it.

I checked the flight path, and the plane flew a route that would be exceptionally risky with a switch that was malfunctioning in such a way: through Turkey, down through the eastern side of Iraq, over the Persian Gulf and then out over the Arabian Sea. The plane wasn't tracked for part of the route over the Arabian Sea as well, so if they had an emergency there, it might have ended badly.

And of course, just so coincidentally, the plane was only scheduled to fly a domestic route from Bangalore to Delhi and back before doing another long haul flight. Very convenient when you want to make some sort of statement, as they wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of cancelling a long haul flight.

A picture of the tech log has been published too:

View attachment 197286

I used Google Gemini to try and transcribe it:

Original source: https://avherald.com/h?article=5342238e

I'd take the dates here with a pinch of salt as it's an AI transcription, but the tech log as a whole is clear: the switch isn't locking in position. On PPRuNe, they confirm that the plane left only 14 minutes late, which would be nowhere near long enough to get it checked by someone on the ground. So either they flew with a broken switch which most definitely isn't permitted, or they made it up. Either scenario is quite damning, as these switches were supposedly all checked last year. The switches themselves can be easily replaced by a mechanic, and from what I understand, it wouldn't be much of an issue to get it done in Heathrow. There are quite a lot of 787s based at Heathrow, it's a major hub, the spare parts would be available there or easily obtainable, and yet they chose to fly on without even having a local mechanic look at it?

And all this happened just as the media was reporting that the accident investigation is leaning towards deliberate action of one of the pilots?

Also worth pointing out that the captain is an Air India lifer with nearly 20 years of experience at the airline. Exactly the kind of person who can be told quietly that given the media attention, he needs to report a potentially broken switch to change the narrative. Or exactly the kind of person who has his eye on a Chief Pilot position and knows that a cancellation of a domestic flight is no big deal for Air India.

I think the only thing here is that there are serious questions over Air India's competence if this story is true.
You have heard of a thing called maintrol haven’t you?

When there are unusual and otherwise minor (without hindsight!) issues often the first course of action is to contact a 24/7 maintenance department usually via satcom or phone. They help to diagnose tech issues and offer support to inform a Flight Crew decision making process.

Ultimately if this is a switch issue that went undiagnosed, which is NOT impossible, then there is a good chance that the issue was believed to have been resolved at that time. The tech log has been actioned as you can see. This is something that Boeing will be looking into I’m sure, but it’s inappropriate to sensationalise in my view.

With the above said, it’s unlikely that the fuel cut off switches are an MEL item owing to their safety critical role. It is however otherwise unusual and if the TLP is correct could have simply been a transient problem that they realised pretty quickly. It happens a lot.
 
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gabrielhj07

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I'm struggling to think of a less believable story.

We are asked to believe that the fuel control switches twice failed to stay in 'Run', and the crew somehow thought that was acceptable to go flying with?

Either the story's fabricated, or AI is a cowboy operation.
 

Royston Vasey

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It's been clear from the start that the Indian authorities at all levels will do absolutely anything not to blemish the reputation of India or Indians. In doing so they are achieving the polar opposite.

This is a quite transparent ploy, probably a fabrication (possibly by the pilot himself, possibly the airline, who knows) to fit the narrative.

It's not the first air accident investigation that has ended in a stalemate of disagreement between competent aviation authorities/investigators/OEMs and dogmatic deluded national authorities who will save face rather than learn the real causes, implications and learnings from a tragic event. It does the victims an immense disservice.
 

TravelDream

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You have heard of a thing called maintrol haven’t you?

When there are unusual and otherwise minor (without hindsight!) issues often the first course of action is to contact a 24/7 maintenance department usually via satcom or phone. They help to diagnose tech issues and offer support to inform a Flight Crew decision making process.

Ultimately if this is a switch issue that went undiagnosed, which is NOT impossible, then there is a good chance that the issue was believed to have been resolved at that time. The tech log has been actioned as you can see. This is something that Boeing will be looking into I’m sure, but it’s inappropriate to sensationalise in my view.

Not sure if you do to be honest.

There's no way their maintrol could have dealt with it as quickly as they did. There'll be someone on duty who'll need to check their maintenance documents and MEL which takes time.

Then, before departure, the captain would have to right in the techlog and the HIL (hold item list) (not seen a photo) about it quoting the MEL number than allows them to fly with this condition. Now, I don't have Air India's MEL, but I am pretty certain you can't fly it with the start switches repeatedly falling down.

I can assure you that for even the simplest issue, you are talking at least 30 minutes for that to happen.

And I am not sure how it can be undiagnosed when it seems clear from what is written in the techlog.

Air India almost certainly has maintenance at Heathrow given it's such a big outstation. More likely would have been to contact them on their frequency than maintrol anyway.

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this story gets.

It's not the first air accident investigation that has ended in a stalemate of disagreement between competent aviation authorities/investigators/OEMs and dogmatic deluded national authorities who will save face rather than learn the real causes, implications and learnings from a tragic event. It does the victims an immense disservice.

We are certainly heading that way. It was always likely, but once the Indian courts became involved, the chance of a fair safety-focused report became basically zero.
 

Annetts key

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Given the design of the fuel run/cut-off switch, for It to move on it's own or fail to stay in its last operated position, even if subjected to mild vibration, it would require a failure of both the toggle mechanism AND a failure of the mechanical locking mechanism.

Taking the above into account and given that as far as we know, there have been no other problems reported by any other airlines, and as far as we know, no reported issues from the checks and tests carried out since the crash of the Air India flight, I think that the likelihood of both parts of the switch mechanism failing simultaneously is rather unlikely.

The first toggle switches were developed in 1916 so the principles and technology are hardly something new.
 

Cloud Strife

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You have heard of a thing called maintrol haven’t you?

Of course. It seems rather unlikely that it would be resolved within 14 minutes at Heathrow of all places, not least because they would have almost certainly missed their slot as a result. With something so serious and given the suspicion of switch failure at the same airline, it seems incredibly unlikely that it was resolved via a quick chat over the phone or radio. Even if it did happen, which I strongly doubt, it would be bordering on criminal to fly with it without it being checked by a mechanic.

Air India almost certainly has maintenance at Heathrow given it's such a big outstation. More likely would have been to contact them on their frequency than maintrol anyway.

Even if they don't have maintenance there, they're in an alliance with United who do and who fly the same planes. Someone would have supplied the spare part if needs be, and it's not like Heathrow is lacking in qualified mechanics who can deal with such things. The airlines cooperate a lot on such things, so there's absolutely no reason to fly off with a potentially faulty fuel switch.

This is a quite transparent ploy, probably a fabrication (possibly by the pilot himself, possibly the airline, who knows) to fit the narrative.

What's interesting is that it's all over the Indian news, while the news about how the report is pointing at pilot culpability has been somewhat quashed. It's textbook Indian politics, and I wouldn't be even surprised if this is a quiet agreement between Air India and the Indian AAIB to have a story for the Indian media in order to save face. The end result, of course, is that India is now convinced that the fuel switch was to blame and that a pilot couldn't possibly have done it. It won't change anything in terms of business for Boeing or Air India, but it achieves the aim of saving face.

The only thing that I can think of is that there might be some level of understanding that Air India will be allowed to quietly push the "broken switch" narrative in exchange for dealing with Air India's huge structural problems. It's not a secret that the airline is still in bad shape, and using the disaster to carry out badly needed internal reforms is cynical, but also needed.

The tragic thing here is that it seems nothing will be learnt from the disaster in terms of crew welfare. It will be simply allocated (in the mind of Air India and the travelling public) that the switch was to blame, and Air India's rather catastrophic reputation will continue. It's not an airline that I would fly on, and even their own CEO has been quite open about the terrible state of some of their facilities after privatisation.

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this story gets.

It is completely ridiculous. The pilots were/are so concerned about the safety of the Dreamliner fleet, but they missed an open chance to have an independent UK-based investigation into the very thing that they're concerned about? It's about as absurd and unbelievable as it gets.

Taking the above into account and given that as far as we know, there have been no other problems reported by any other airlines, and as far as we know, no reported issues from the checks and tests carried out since the crash of the Air India flight, I think that the likelihood of both parts of the switch mechanism failing simultaneously is rather unlikely.

It is really rather unlikely, and even more unlikely that the same thing happened to the same fleet belonging to the same airline.

In defence of the captain and crew here here: I wonder if this hasn't been rather misunderstood? Is it possible that the pilot was simply concerned about how secure the mechanism was, and what was written in the tech log was an exaggeration in order to get it checked properly? I'm thinking about Indian culture in particular: you have to make a big noise to get anyone to do anything, otherwise it'll be ignored. Perhaps they were being paranoid about the switch, and that it didn't move all the way at all, but perhaps there was just some looseness in the switch that spooked them?
 

gabrielhj07

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Perhaps they were being paranoid about the switch, and that it didn't move all the way at all, but perhaps there was just some looseness in the switch that spooked them?
Spooked them enough to want the switch checked, but not enough to stop them taking the aeroplane airborne?
 

Cloud Strife

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Spooked them enough to want the switch checked, but not enough to stop them taking the aeroplane airborne?

Not very plausible, is it? But I'm trying to understand their thought process: they might have thought "okay, this isn't good, there's some movement in the switch", they used it twice as it was meant to be used to check it, then decided that it was fine and they could continue. Then they played up the story in Bangalore so that it would be checked thoroughly, knowing that Air India's outsourced maintenance (which wasn't privatised) is known to be terrible.

I don't believe a word of what I'm writing there, but it's one plausible scenario, no?
 
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Not very plausible, is it? But I'm trying to understand their thought process: they might have thought "okay, this isn't good, there's some movement in the switch", they used it twice as it was meant to be used to check it, then decided that it was fine and they could continue. Then they played up the story in Bangalore so that it would be checked thoroughly, knowing that Air India's outsourced maintenance (which wasn't privatised) is known to be terrible.

I don't believe a word of what I'm writing there, but it's one plausible scenario, no?
if you (ie the Pilots) honestly thought that the cause of the previous crash was dodgy fuel switches, and you discovered your plane had what appeared to be the same issue, then I wouldn't want it off the ground until the switches were checked changed, guaranteed.
 

gabrielhj07

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Not very plausible, is it? But I'm trying to understand their thought process: they might have thought "okay, this isn't good, there's some movement in the switch", they used it twice as it was meant to be used to check it, then decided that it was fine and they could continue. Then they played up the story in Bangalore so that it would be checked thoroughly, knowing that Air India's outsourced maintenance (which wasn't privatised) is known to be terrible.

I don't believe a word of what I'm writing there, but it's one plausible scenario, no?
The alleged sequence of events is as follows:
1. Start the engine
2. Shut it down
3. Start the same engine a second time
4. Shut it down again
5. Start it for a third time, leaving it running.
6. Having done all that, arrive at the extraordinary conclusion that the aeroplane requires maintenance attention, just not before they’ve flown themselves home?

If I were a betting man I’d say that the captain has made up this fault to take the public’s attention off his colleagues.
 

pug1

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Not sure if you do to be honest.

There's no way their maintrol could have dealt with it as quickly as they did. There'll be someone on duty who'll need to check their maintenance documents and MEL which takes time.

Then, before departure, the captain would have to right in the techlog and the HIL (hold item list) (not seen a photo) about it quoting the MEL number than allows them to fly with this condition. Now, I don't have Air India's MEL, but I am pretty certain you can't fly it with the start switches repeatedly falling down.

I can assure you that for even the simplest issue, you are talking at least 30 minutes for that to happen.

And I am not sure how it can be undiagnosed when it seems clear from what is written in the techlog.

Air India almost certainly has maintenance at Heathrow given it's such a big outstation. More likely would have been to contact them on their frequency than maintrol anyway.

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this story gets.



We are certainly heading that way. It was always likely, but once the Indian courts became involved, the chance of a fair safety-focused report became basically zero.
I think it depends on when it was noticed. A 14 minute delay assumes it was noted at the point they went to start engines and noted in the tech log later. It’s not clear that this is the case, although admittedly I’m unsure why this would be noticed before that point by an outgoing crew. The TLP suggests the crew made the entry on arrival to BLR. Possible questions to ask there, but it’s been subsequently signed off as nil defect. I’ve seen this before if there’s been something embarrassing occur, something performed incorrectly etc. Could maintrol have been contacted before the ‘embarrassing’ situation was noticed and rectified, with the Captain making an arse covering entry on arrival? Again it’s speculation but there’s nothing to definitely suggest the crew shouldn’t have taken off here.

I’m as skeptical as anyone on this. Hence I don’t see the need to sensationalise it at this time. As I also said it wouldn’t feature in the MEL due to it being a safety critical element. Nor indeed could I envisage it being a hold over item, a return to stand definitely. AOG almost certainly unless there was a clear cause of the switch being unable to lock (debris etc). Is there a suggestion that the aircraft was AOG when it returned to its destination? This could have been a very minor issue that was discussed with whomever AI have in place to discuss with and determined not to be an issue - if indeed this TLP is real.

That said there was an issue with these cut off switches that also impacted some 738 variants, I know because my employer completed checks on them fortunately with no findings. This was not mandated by Boeing (SB as opposed to AD) from what I gather, and there are suggestions that Air India did not complete these checks. That is all I know on the matter, but it makes me uneasy sensationalising and speculating too much in these instances, as tempting as it might be. Afterall, we know that on AI171 BOTH switches turned to cutoff, id suggest that’s statistically unpalatable where it to be a switch problem.

I say all this as someone who’s been on the periphery of FOQA in the past, it’s easy to assume but the context from the flight crew in question is always the best source of information. Sadly in the case of AI171 it’s impossible for obvious reasons.

EDIT: to add after reading subsequent replies to yours @TravelDream that people think highly trained professionals would construct some elaborate (probable non) issue to take the heat off. My bet in this instance was brain fart, but then I’d be speculating again
 
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Annetts key

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EDIT: to add after reading subsequent replies to yours @TravelDream that people think highly trained professionals would construct some elaborate (probable non) issue to take the heat off. My bet in this instance was brain fart, but then I’d be speculating again
I have never worked in or been involved with the aviation industry, but within the railway industry, yes, some highly trained professionals do sometimes either give misleading information, or actually lie about what happened. I know this because the technical evidence (data from data recording / logging systems says different or a full detailed investigation into the equipment that an allegation was made against finds no evidence of the alleged malfunction, and no further issues occur when the equipment is returned to service). In at least one case, it resulted in disciplinary action.

What happened in this case, I don't know for certain and I doubt we will ever find out the truth. But I stand by my previous comments about the toggle switch.
 

pug1

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I have never worked in or been involved with the aviation industry, but within the railway industry, yes, some highly trained professionals do sometimes either give misleading information, or actually lie about what happened. I know this because the technical evidence (data from data recording / logging systems says different or a full detailed investigation into the equipment that an allegation was made against finds no evidence of the alleged malfunction, and no further issues occur when the equipment is returned to service). In at least one case, it resulted in disciplinary action.

What happened in this case, I don't know for certain and I doubt we will ever find out the truth. But I stand by my previous comments about the toggle switch.
To be clear, a Captain is unlikely to make a Tech Log entry at the end of the sector for something that would likely get them into serious trouble just to take the heat off his unfortunate colleagues on AI171, as this is what is being suggested.

We may question the decision making process, but we’re doing so with a TLP that provides very little context and some sensationalised media. So unless some serious breach of safety has occurred, I’d prefer to stick to my flight deck brain fart theory on this particular event for now.
 

gabrielhj07

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To be clear, a Captain is unlikely to make a Tech Log entry at the end of the sector for something that would likely get them into serious trouble just to take the heat off his unfortunate colleagues on AI171, as this is what is being suggested.
Unlikely indeed, but more or less likely than accepting the aeroplane with this serious defect?

Two things I noted this morning:
No defect found in switch of jet grounded by Air India - regulator
India's aviation regulator said it found no defect in the fuel control switch of a Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner jet grounded by Air India based on a pilot's report.


UK aviation regulator seeks answers from Air India over Boeing 787 fuel switch incident after DGCA finds ‘no defects’

In a letter dated Tuesday, the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) sought a detailed explanation from Air India over the London–India flight and warned that regulatory action could follow if the airline does not submit a complete response within a week. The aircraft was grounded after landing in India for safety checks following a pilot report of a potential defect.​

 

pug1

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Suggestion being that it’s not a serious defect at all and was indeed a flight crew brain fart.

To put it into context ‘the regulator’ used to frequently contact my former department to ask for all sorts of information regarding things that you will have never heard of but nontheless were reported, often via MOR or other means, for ‘answers’. In other words what analysis has been conducted to determine the root cause, what preventative controls have been implemented etc etc. It’s standard process and doesn’t suggest that the U.K. regulator has any pre-conceived ideas as to why this event (which in all likelihood is a non-event in the absence of crucial context) even occurred.

TLP entries are made and signed off frequently. Yes an issue with the fuel cutoff switch might sound the alarm bells in isolation, but the most plausible answer is that whatever it was was resolved on the flight deck, probably whilst in contact with their maintrol dept in India. If it was resolved on the flight deck then it will have been someone having a slip up in all likelihood. Questions could be asked of the crew as to whether they felt any commercial pressure to continue, all reasonable questions to ask as part of any safety investigation. But like I say unless there is additional evidence that raises concern then it is a non event.

It is most certainly not uncommon for a piece non safety critical kit (like satcom) to be incorrectly installed (sim card put in the wrong way around). This will be noted in the TLP by the captain with the engineers signing off as no defect without actually elaborating on why the thing didn’t work. Again, brain fart.
 
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gabrielhj07

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but the most plausible answer is that whatever it was was resolved on the flight deck
I certainly hope so.

Question remains: did the aeroplane depart with this defect? The answer shouldn’t be yes if the TL entry is correct. If not then why the TL entry?
 

pug1

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I certainly hope so.

Question remains: did the aeroplane depart with this defect? The answer shouldn’t be yes if the TL entry is correct. If not then why the TL entry?
Like I said, it appears it was entered into the tech log on arrival into BLR. It’s quite possible this was an arse covering exercise by the captain following a discussion with their 24/7 engineering ops/maintrol department. However this will be part of the investigation. If there is any inkling of unsafe practices the the regulator could blacklist them from operating within the uk, but based on only having the TLP there is not necessarily a suggestion of unsafe practices at the moment.
 
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