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Delayed due to failure of Tesco daventry - coatbridge DRS service (17/12)

bahnause

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I accept that Network Rail might find it difficult to stipulate these details but, by not doing so, they transfer the financial risk (having to provide an expensive second loco just-in-case) to their customer.
Running a business always involves an element of risk. However, it is possible to insure against almost any risk. Whether this is through insurance or a service provider offering compensation is not that important. However, both types of insurance come at a cost, whether it's a straightforward insurance policy or in a contract with a supplier. Compensation for delivery delays is common in contracts. However, it is usually capped for large investments. Otherwise, no one would offer a product, or only at unacceptably high prices. The other contracting party also wants to protect itself.
 
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ajp999

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4S43 seems to have had a few problems in the Oxenholme area yesterday losing 40 minutes. Two following Avanti services, one to Glasgow and one to Edinburgh were both delayed by 30 minutes whilst a northbound TPE service to Glasgow picked up a 15 minute delay. When we went by it at Kingmoor it appeared to have two 88's on the front.
 

Freightmaster

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4S43 seems to have had a few problems in the Oxenholme area yesterday losing 40 minutes. Two following Avanti services, one to Glasgow and one to Edinburgh were both delayed by 30 minutes whilst a northbound TPE service to Glasgow picked up a 15 minute delay. When we went by it at Kingmoor it appeared to have two 88's on the front.
It was a single 88 as far as Kingmoor.

I still don't understand why DRS keep trying to 'get away' with going back to a using a single loco;
don't they realise by now that it's a false economy??



MARK
 

AndrewE

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It was a single 88 as far as Kingmoor.

I still don't understand why DRS keep trying to 'get away' with going back to a using a single loco;
don't they realise by now that it's a false economy??

MARK
maybe the savings on fuel and maintenance are more than the fines for delaying other trains?
 

High Dyke

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Some people roll their eyes at the 'in the olden days' logic, but occurrences like this show that management down really understand the correlation between train weights and topography.

Yes, locomotives have developed over time, but you have to wonder why operators don't plan correctly. How long before NR say enough is enough, and suggest the issue is resolved or the train won't be permitted to run.
 

Freightmaster

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maybe the savings on fuel and maintenance are more than the fines for delaying other trains?

No fuel usage to consider with a class 88 running on AC!


However, I'm not sure if two 88s would consume more electricity than a single loco,
if running at exactly the same speeds - does anyone know?




MARK
 

38Cto15E

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What I do know is that I arrived at Edinburgh to catch the 1451 Avanti to Euston and I eventually reached Carlisle at 1925 with the failure very troublesome to me.
 

AndrewE

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No fuel usage to consider with a class 88 running on AC!

However, I'm not sure if two 88s would consume more electricity than a single loco,
if running at exactly the same speeds - does anyone know?
MARK
but do they run on electric?
I am sure that just this morning I read an article about barriers to the UK getting away from using fossil fuels and how even railfreight was part of the problem - as NR charged so much for electricity that the companies were using diesel. Of course I can't find it now, but it's cleearly not new. Googling found https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2021/10/14-railfreight-goes-back-to-diesel.html from 2021 :
As a result, Freightliner has taken the difficult decision to temporarily replace electric freight services with diesel-hauled services, in order to maintain a cost-effective option for transporting vital goods.'
Direct Rail Services, which is not privatised, said it was 'committed to low carbon rail freight'. However, it is also able to run its dual traction locomotives only in diesel mode for now, saying: 'Our fleet of locomotives offers the flexibility to adapt to changing market conditions while maintaining a safe, secure and reliable service. That might mean we change the type of traction we use on our train services in response to temporary fluctuations in energy prices.'
The Rail Freight Group said: 'The current significant increase in the wholesale cost of electricity for haulage means that some operators have had to take the regrettable decision to temporarily move back to diesel locomotives. A 200 per cent increase in electricity costs for each train cannot be absorbed by the operators, or customers.
 

Class15

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but do they run on electric?
I am sure that just this morning I read an article about barriers to the UK getting away from using fossil fuels and how even railfreight was part of the problem - as NR charged so much for electricity that the companies were using diesel. Of course I can't find it now, but it's cleearly not new. Googling found https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2021/10/14-railfreight-goes-back-to-diesel.html from 2021 :
Yes. They run on electric. That was 2021.
 

D1511

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However, I'm not sure if two 88s would consume more electricity than a single loco,
if running at exactly the same speeds - does anyone know?




MARK
Yes, as both locos would be drawing power from the OHLE, but it wouldn't be double, unless both locos were at full power, such as starting a heavy train from a standstill on an incline. I'm sure someone will provide the right answer, but most of the time, I'd expect it to be around 1.5 times the power drawn by a single loco, but it might be lower than that. I'd be surprised if it's any higher.
 

AndrewE

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Yes. They run on electric. That was 2021.
I know, but the point in that article today was that NR "charge" so much per kWh for freight traction that even when it is possible the operators are still using diesel instead.
I'm glad to hear that the OLE is being used here for freight wherever possible...
 

dave59

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4S44 which for some reason is diagrammed for a single 66 causes regular delays to passenger service around Beattock due to lack of power. This evening it cost 1S72 and 9S77 both over 11 minutes here and took 24 minutes on the bank. 4S43 generally takes half that time with a single 88. Very good value electricity it would seem and the same goes for Freightliner using 2x90, spending much less time in the loops than the diesels.
 

D1511

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4S44 which for some reason is diagrammed for a single 66 causes regular delays to passenger service around Beattock due to lack of power. This evening it cost 1S72 and 9S77 both over 11 minutes here and took 24 minutes on the bank.
This is what infuriates me, because it seems such a basic and fundamental calculation for a FOC to make.......and these daft diagramming decisions cost the railway money. Six or seven hundred people on these two Scottish services will be getting some money back because of this nonsense.
Don't they know the weight of their train, the power of the allocated loco, and that Beattock is about the toughest drag on the whole UK rail network??
 

800001

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This is what infuriates me, because it seems such a basic and fundamental calculation for a FOC to make.......and these daft diagramming decisions cost the railway money. Six or seven hundred people on these two Scottish services will be getting some money back because of this nonsense.
Don't they know the weight of their train, the power of the allocated loco, and that Beattock is about the toughest drag on the whole UK rail network??
No delay repay due to any customers on either train, as both terminated under 15 minutes late (not disputing the inconvenience to this customers for the delay).
 

edwin_m

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Yes, as both locos would be drawing power from the OHLE, but it wouldn't be double, unless both locos were at full power, such as starting a heavy train from a standstill on an incline. I'm sure someone will provide the right answer, but most of the time, I'd expect it to be around 1.5 times the power drawn by a single loco, but it might be lower than that. I'd be surprised if it's any higher.
If they keep to the same speeds, as suggested by the original question, then the energy consumption of a freight with two electric locos will be quite similar to if there was just one. Most of the energy goes to overcoming rolling and aerodynamic resistance, accelerating the train, and lifting it up hills. These will be slightly more because the train has one locomotive worth of extra weight and resistance. It also has two sets of auxiliary equipment drawing power. On the other hand, when braking regeneratively it would return more energy to the line because more of the braking will be done by locomotive wheels instead of just creating heat in the wagon brakes.

I think the net result is a bit more power consumption, but not much.
 

dave59

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This is what infuriates me, because it seems such a basic and fundamental calculation for a FOC to make.......and these daft diagramming decisions cost the railway money. Six or seven hundred people on these two Scottish services will be getting some money back because of this nonsense.
Don't they know the weight of their train, the power of the allocated loco, and that Beattock is about the toughest drag on the whole UK rail network??
Indeed. It is typical and far from an isolated incident. We all want "the railway" to do well but lack of joined up thinking like this causes extra costs and negativity from passengers. the 88's might slip occasionally but the single 66's and 68's are an issue year round.
 

D1511

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No delay repay due to any customers on either train, as both terminated under 15 minutes late (not disputing the inconvenience to this customers for the delay).
So, they dodged it this time, but the point of principle remains.....
If they keep to the same speeds, as suggested by the original question, then the energy consumption of a freight with two electric locos will be quite similar to if there was just one. Most of the energy goes to overcoming rolling and aerodynamic resistance, accelerating the train, and lifting it up hills. These will be slightly more because the train has one locomotive worth of extra weight and resistance. It also has two sets of auxiliary equipment drawing power. On the other hand, when braking regeneratively it would return more energy to the line because more of the braking will be done by locomotive wheels instead of just creating heat in the wagon brakes.

I think the net result is a bit more power consumption, but not much.
Thank you for the clarification. Seems odd that they don't pair them up in that case......it's not as if they're short of them.
They seem to be fond of 68/88 consists, despite them being under wires all the way. Never quite understood that......
Indeed. It is typical and far from an isolated incident. We all want "the railway" to do well but lack of joined up thinking like this causes extra costs and negativity from passengers. the 88's might slip occasionally but the single 66's and 68's are an issue year round.
You'd think that working out if your loco can pull your train is in the Ladybird Book 1 of Freight Operations, wouldn't you?
 

Rail Quest

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Indeed. It is typical and far from an isolated incident. We all want "the railway" to do well but lack of joined up thinking like this causes extra costs and negativity from passengers. the 88's might slip occasionally but the single 66's and 68's are an issue year round.
Agreed. Given the 99s will be entering service with GBRf this year, perhaps GBRf can work with NR on getting some WCML paths specifically booked for flake haulage, in a similar way as I believe has been made on the ECML. It's a great opportunity for NR (and eventually GBR) to start giving preferential treatment to FOCs that are able to consistently provide adequate traction for the route in the interest of reliability, whether that be 99 or double 88/90 hauled services.
 

edwin_m

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Agreed. Given the 99s will be entering service with GBRf this year, perhaps GBRf can work with NR on getting some WCML paths specifically booked for flake haulage, in a similar way as I believe has been made on the ECML. It's a great opportunity for NR (and eventually GBR) to start giving preferential treatment to FOCs that are able to consistently provide adequate traction for the route in the interest of reliability, whether that be 99 or double 88/90 hauled services.
It does suggest GBRf may be onto something by going for the 99 instead of more 88s or 93s. Despite the energy consumption being fairly similar, double heading does cost more in other ways particularly if it means the second locomotive can't be earning money somewhere else. With a greater weight and therefore tractive effort, the 99 is probably going to be able to handle a bigger load than a single Bo-Bo on this key freight route.
 

D1537

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No delay repay due to any customers on either train, as both terminated under 15 minutes late (not disputing the inconvenience to this customers for the delay).
For 4S44 today, yes, although 4S43 yesterday delayed three trains by 15-29 mins. Though to be fair, that's nothing like the chaos it's inflicted on the WCML previously.
 

Zontar

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What I do know is that I arrived at Edinburgh to catch the 1451 Avanti to Euston and I eventually reached Carlisle at 1925 with the failure very troublesome to me.
Yes I feel your pain. I was also delayed several hours, which is what prompted the start of this thread. Seems like it's just a tolerated expectation.
 

38Cto15E

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Zontar, What made matters worse was that I had travelled from Inverness and was going to get the 1251. However due to problems the previous evening the Highland Chieftain could not leave INV until 0955 so we missed a connection at Haymarket, at least it didn't mean I missed a flight from Edinburgh or Manchester, and also I got my fare back. :)
 

bahnause

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You'd think that working out if your loco can pull your train is in the Ladybird Book 1 of Freight Operations, wouldn't you?
The condition of the tracks is neither a constant factor nor can it be determined comprehensively in real time. This means that the only options are to base timetables on the worst-case scenario (which limits capacity and increases journey times), to oversize traction equipment (which is expensive and reduces competitiveness), or to accept occasional operational issues. The first two options have an impact on every single day of the year, whereas the last option does not.

It is by no means only heavy freight trains that are affected, but also passenger trains.
 

Adrian Barr

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What puzzles me is why Network Rail, as infrastructure supplier, seem to have no obligations to specify the state of the infrastructure that they are providing. For instance, a guarantee of the minimum co-efficient of friction of their railhead.

The condition of the tracks is neither a constant factor nor can it be determined comprehensively in real time.

This is my understanding of some of the issues surrounding adhesion and the responsibility for associated delays, although anything involving delay attribution is rarely straightforward or simple:

The responsibility for performance issues caused by low adhesion (freight trains slipping to a stand, or passenger units delayed by defensive driving necessary because leaves are causing poor braking) is usually determined by whether railhead conditions are considered unusually bad due to "railhead contamination" - I think the precise wording for this state of affairs has recently been changed from "exceptional railhead conditions" to "reportable railhead conditions." If a train slips to a stand due to very poor railhead conditions (rather than a fault with the train), the driver would report that to the signaller and it would be an important factor in determining the responsibility for the delay. As an example, if a Railhead Treatment Train was supposed to operate on a route but didn't for some reason, and the resulting poor railhead conditions cause delays because a train slips to a stand, Network Rail would be responsible for those delays.

This publication from the Rail Delivery Group "Managing Low Adhesion" is quite interesting, and includes a table reproduced below:
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/publications/13003-managing-low-adhesion-edition-7-0/file.html

Adhesion LevelTypicallyDescription
High>15%Clean rails wet or dry
Medium10-15%Damp rails with some contamination
Low5-9%Typical autumn mornings due to dew / dampness often combined with light overnight rust
Exceptionally Low<5%Severe rail contamination often due to leaves but sometimes other pollution

Based on this scale, Network Rail do have a sort of "minimum co-efficient of friction" they are supposed to provide - I think the general idea is that they are responsible for taking preventative measures to avoid "exceptionally low" adhesion levels (which are a safety risk in addition to a cause of delays).

Adhesion issues caused by typical wet & windy Cumbrian weather in winter (outside of leaf fall season) are unlikely to be considered "exceptional" and it's the responsibility of the freight operator to ensure that the locos they use are capable of hauling their trains. A "fair weather only" loco is not much use, especially in Cumbria!

When pairs of class 90s were being used by DB on the heavy Daventry - Grangemouth service for Malcolms (1600 tons trailing) there would occasionally be times when it had to run with a single class 90. In that case traffic would be left behind to keep the train within the published weight limit for a class 90 (970 tons trailing up Shap and Beattock) rather than risk the train slipping to a stand - even though a class 90 could probably manage a higher load on a dry rail. If a single class 66 had to substitute for a pair of 90s, it could manage 1600 tons without risk of slipping to a stand, but would not be able to maintain the booked timings for a pair of 90s over Shap and Beattock.

The class 88s have an authorised max load on this route of 1400 tons trailing, a 44% increase over the class 90 but still relying on 4 axles to transfer the power to the rail.

A Modern Railways article on the class 88s has a telling sentence regarding adhesion issues on this route with these locos:

Just a couple of times the orange Catherine wheel flashes, meaning wheelslip, but it is automatically corrected almost instantly. It isn’t always this easy, witness a large bag of sand in the back cab.
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/class-88-over-shap

The Freight train loads book says the following:

The manual assumes standard train resistance and adhesion parameters. Train resistance can alter significantly due to atmospheric conditions such as headwinds. Adhesion can be significantly reduced by adverse railhead conditions.

...Seasonal variations may also be required in certain sections based on historic issues.

Autumn weather conditions sometimes require freight trains to be "downloaded" (i.e. have their maximum weight reduced). Network Rail monitor leaf fall (to the extent of having statistics on the % of leaves left on the trees in different areas of the country) and predict how bad conditions will be, due to factors like predicted winds bringing down more leaves. The conditions for different areas are colour coded depending on how bad they are expected to be, with "red" days being bad and "black" being the worst.

For example, trains from South Wales to Dee Marsh (Shotton steel works) can be affected by leaves on the steep climb north of Abergavenny (Llanvihangel bank, with a sustained climb of about 4 miles at 1-in-82 easing to 1-in-95). The normal load is usually 25 wagons of steel coil, but this can be reduced depending on predicted conditions, to 22 or 20 or even 16 on the absolute worst days. This mitigates against "historic issues" where trains have been known to slip to a stand in previous years. Stubbornly persisting with a load of 25 wagons during Autumn despite knowing the risk of slipping to a stand would not really be an option, especially considering that delays to other trains can cost upwards of £50 per minute of delay to each train involved, which can then snowball as those late trains delay more trains in turn, including their return workings and so on...

A quick glance at the delays to trains stood behind the failed 4S43 on 17th December showed at least 500 minutes delay even before any subsequent knock-on delays to other services are considered. Operators often have a "cap" on the maximum amount of delay minutes for a particular incident that they can be charged for, which works a bit like an insurance policy to limit the financial blow from any single incident.

The issues with 88s over Shap and Beattock are well known. I think the problem with using single 88s on 4S43 is that the timing load - the "tonnage which a nominated train is deemed as being able to convey in order to maintain point to point running times" is evidently quite close to, and sometimes exceeds, the absolute maximum that the loco can cope with in poor weather conditions.

1400 tons is not a particularly heavy load, even up Shap, so having regular issues with this weight has to be considered as an issue with the type of loco used. Unlike a heavy steel train to Dee Marsh which normally runs close to its maximum possible weight, 1400 tons over Shap can be considered a moderate weight which a modern freight loco should be able to handle on its own all year round, including autumn and winter.

I think single 88s are more suitable for less steeply graded routes such as Tilbury to Daventry or Daventry to Trafford Park, but that geographical limitation seriously limits their usefulness as a freight loco when the WCML from London to Scotland is the main artery for electric freight. I suppose the underlying issue is that the freight operators as a whole don't currently have the right mix of traction for Anglo-Scottish intermodal, with the 88s and 90s having weight and adhesion limitations when used singly, and 66s being reliable but too slow up the gradients. It would be interesting to know how the class 93s would have performed with the same train in the same conditions - when doing a google search I read an AI summary (which appeared to be drawing on info from a paywalled article) which said that the class 93 wheelslip prevention system is better than the one on the otherwise similar class 88s. The new 99s should be great over Shap and Beattock, but GBRF don't currently have the contract for the trains from Daventry to Scotland - although having more reliable and capable locos will be a good bargaining chip when contracts are renewed.
 

bahnause

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1400 tons is not a particularly heavy load, even up Shap, so having regular issues with this weight has to be considered as an issue with the type of loco used.
How often is "regular" issues due to adhesion?

We already have some information in this posting:
Looking at the information that is publicly available for this year, I can see that 4S43 appears to have had a problem at Beattock Summit on 14.04.2025 and 17.12.2025.

What I also observe is that in the past 100 days, 4S43 has been delayed on 85 occasions by late running of either Avanti West Coast’s 9S47 (1S45 Saturdays) or TransPennine’s 1S46.
 
Last edited:

Adrian Barr

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How often is "regular" issues due to adhesion?

Every autumn, with the train requiring double-heading! Even if incidents like the one discussed in this thread are infrequent, they are regular in the sense of being a known issue with the same train in the same place with the same loco type, which gives a feeling of deja vu. Occasional failures and disruptions are inevitable, but this kind of "service meltdown" incident which blocks an important main line and causes multi-hour delays to passenger trains is something that operators normally try to avoid wherever possible. If there was bi-directional signalling it wouldn't be so bad as you could at least route trains around the failed one.

My point is that the class 88s are not really suitable for the train. No UK operator would deliberately purchase new locos to work a service from A to B knowing that they would require double-heading during autumn - as you've pointed out it's not financially viable, and for most UK operators autumn already requires the maximum amount of locos to be in use (covering railhead treatment train work). There's no easy solution - if DRS priced the contract on the basis of using a pair of 88s (or 88 + 68) all year round, or for the entire autumn and winter, they might not have the traffic in the first place.

Having to make a judgement call between the regular expense of double-heading and the infrequent, but very costly expense of bringing the West Coast Main Line to a stand, or reducing the weight of the train, is not a position you want to be in as an operator. You want a loco that can do the job in all weather conditions.

The electric-hauled intermodal and freightliner trains on the northern end of the WCML are usually timed for either 1250 tons (Freightliner services from Crewe to Coatbridge with 2 x 90), 1400 tons (DRS Tesco intermodals with the 88s) or 1600 tons (Freightliner's Daventry to Grangemouth service with 2 x 90). Single 88s would probably do OK on the Freightliner trains to Coatbridge (which are usually a bit lighter than the 1250 timing load) and in an ideal fantasy world - ignoring the fact that the services are operated by different companies - you'd be able to swap the traction over so that the pairs of 90s worked the heavier 4S43 and 4S44. I assume the economics of pairing class 90s are better because they are an older asset which has already been "paid off."

I do like the look of the 88s though... 88008 double-heads 4S43 with 68007 on 8th October 2025:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/75784477@N08/54843360050/ (Photo: Dave McDigital)
 

aaronspence

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Is there a reason these trains don’t run at night which might cause less effect on passenger trains? Cost I assume?
 

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