How do you solve a problem like Bradford?

[WAO]

If immediate walking access to the centre isn't critical and a through station to Leeds is needed, then the crayons suggest reopening the Bowling Jn - Laisterdyke, avoiding line, with a main station at Bowling Jn, 1 mile south of Bradford Centre. With Interchange closed to NR/GBR, a tram-train shuttle from this new station could connect to the centre perhaps branching off through Vicar Lane and Well St to Kirkgate and Forster Square. Yes, some industrial property might be needed but relevant land prices (and relocation options) are for Bradford, not Mayfair. How you would teleport from Bowling Jn to Huddersfield, I leave to others!

Not my first choice.

WAO

 

[NCT]

Fares have very little to do with infrastructure business cases.

Fares have a lot to do with infrastructure business cases. A reliance on low fares means a large proportion of travellers being Leisure, as opposed to Commute and Business. Leisure trips attract the lowest Value of Time valuations so the business case will struggle. Revenues that fail to cover operating costs will also drag the business case down.

St James Market isn't 1km away from most of Bradford City Centre.

Straight-line distances from the centre of St James Market:

• Entrance of Interchange - 477m
• Centre of the Broadway - 746m
• Entrance of Forster Square - 1080m
• Furthest point of the city centre (subjective) but within 1400m

Straight-line distances from Stockport station entrance.

• Centre of the bus station - 307 metres
• Centre of the Merseyway - 607 metres
• Centre of The Light - 682 metres
• Furthest point of the town centre - 900 metres

So Stockport is slightly closer to some amenities but its also a smaller city than Bradford. The north end of Bradford City Centre also has far better access to Forster Square so I would argue is less of an issue. Stockport is clearly comparable and clearly shows that the distances and height difference is clearly acceptable.

OK, we are not talking about the same location.

St James market was from the era of the Great Delusion of 8 minutes to Leeds and 22 minutes to Manchester. That Delusion is well and truly over (though not in all heads). This is a scheme that is chasing zero benefit, so it will be designed to be the most Minimum Viable Product (MVP) you can imagine. When the first HMG sponsored detailed alignment drawings get published, I would not at all be surprised to find the proposed station location to be on the disused avoiding line, over Wakefield Road near Rutland Street.

Bradford council won't be subsidising it directly. It'll be up controlled by the combined authority. A minute or two of journey time is not going to require significant subsidy.

I think its pretty likely the road network will be changed to support the new development. Again let's see the details of the proposals before arguing about that. Its difficult to say that's an issue until there's detailed proposals.

So the scheme-with-no-benefits is chasing even more costs.

 

[Grimsby town]

Fares have a lot to do with infrastructure business cases. A reliance on low fares means a large proportion of travellers being Leisure, as opposed to Commute and Business. Leisure trips attract the lowest Value of Time valuations so the business case will struggle. Revenues that fail to cover operating costs will also drag the business case down.

That's not really fares is it, its journey purpose. It frees up space for business pax on the faster Dewsbury route. Anyway there's people being paid to produce the business case. I'll leave it to them to see what they come up with.

 

[NCT]

That's not really fares is it, its journey purpose. It frees up space for business pax on the faster Dewsbury route. Anyway there's people being paid to produce the business case. I'll leave it to them to see what they come up with.

What I forgot to say is that in strategic transport modelling it's rare that you consider differential fares. Through passenger just won't get assigned to overtaken opportunities to travel (there will be edge cases of course).

 

[Noddy]

OK, we are not talking about the same location.

St James market was from the era of the Great Delusion of 8 minutes to Leeds and 22 minutes to Manchester. That Delusion is well and truly over (though not in all heads). This is a scheme that is chasing zero benefit, so it will be designed to be the most Minimum Viable Product (MVP) you can imagine. When the first HMG sponsored detailed alignment drawings get published, I would not at all be surprised to find the proposed station location to be on the disused avoiding line, over Wakefield Road near Rutland Street.

Yep I’d put money on it being between Wakefield Road and Hall Lane with them likely closing Barnard Road. Approximately here (blue crayonista) on the Southern Gateway masterplan area:


(image shows Southern Gateway area with my predicted location highlighted)

 

[357]

Yes can we please fund a 3rd platform for Halifax!

I don't think anyone will argue over it's proposed location (although some may argue if it should be a through platform or a central turnback) but that is neither here nor there.

To free up platform space at Bradford how about terminating GC at Halifax, obviously after it has ventured back from Bradford. That way we free up platform capacity without having to spend millions on a new platform which may later get demolished anyway if this new station goes ahead!

Generally in agreement

Halifax - easy solution is to make the "nursery platform" the new Bradford bound platform. The new middle road can be used for terminating trains or as a passing loop.

Bradford - the obvious place to send GC trains is towards Leeds and Whitehall curves if there isn't capacity at Bradford. In a similar way to Hornsey reversing siding is used when there isn't space at Kings Cross

 

[Halifaxlad]

If immediate walking access to the centre isn't critical and a through station to Leeds is needed, then the crayons suggest reopening the Bowling Jn - Laisterdyke, avoiding line, with a main station at Bowling Jn, 1 mile south of Bradford Centre. With Interchange closed to NR/GBR, a tram-train shuttle from this new station could connect to the centre perhaps branching off through Vicar Lane and Well St to Kirkgate and Forster Square. Yes, some industrial property might be needed but relevant land prices (and relocation options) are for Bradford, not Mayfair. How you would teleport from Bowling Jn to Huddersfield, I leave to others!

Not my first choice.

WAO

Most of the land of the Bradford Avoiding line (around 75%) of it is owned by the goverment!

 

[Bantamzen]

You don't know that. I don't know that. We simply don't have access to where people are coming from.

I do know that. I lived there. I worked there. I know lots of people there. I travel there regularly. You see having spent most of my childhood and adulthood there, I can get a feel about the place and it's people that no amount of data could ever hope to achieve. And as I've said I know all the areas and what they are like, and I promise you without being developed before any station is built would put a lot of people off. The Southern Gateway is just the smoking remains of the high speed Trans-Pennine line through Bradford dream. It lives only in the minds of a few airhead councillors, and on some PowerPoint presentations sitting untouched on a server somewhere. There are no firm plans for it to be redeveloped, and there is no evidence that shunting the Interchange station out there will make a jot of difference.

1) Improve Manchester and Leeds capacity

How? Services will still have to travel along the same infrastructure beyond Bradford, will still have the same limitations as the Interchange does.

2) Have better accelerating battery units would reduce speed differential between fast and slow services.

That's happening regardless, Northern are ordering new units that will include multi mode versions. And one of the priorities that is likely to happen is the Leeds - Bradford section being wired, which means MMUs are likely to find their way onto the route in the next decade.

3) I'd still look at building a line to Huddersfield

Maybe, but that doesn't justify spending hundreds of millions or more moving the station.

Step 1 is going to take a while, particularly Manchester. I think there's two solutions. A station at Bradford that provides that capacity for more services over the coming decades.

See above.

Bus routes can change. I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand that a station won't just put there without the associated improvements to access routes and urban realm. Again Derby has a similar 6 lane road dividing the station from its city. They've provided improved crossings to improve the access to the station. Active Travel England has a whole list of requirements to make walking/cycling routes comfortable that Bradford council have followed with its Town centre development.

They can, but you're not going to route all of them along Wakefield Road. As for Derby, was the station moved away from the centre to "improve capacity"?. Apples and pears again.

Just for avoidance of doubt, I don't work for a company involved with these proposals. My personal opinion is that it could work if affordable and that some of the opposition on here is vastly overstating the barriers and issues. That's human nature with change though.

Fair enough.

Yep I’d put money on it being between Wakefield Road and Hall Lane with them likely closing Barnard Road. Approximately here (blue crayonista) on the Southern Gateway masterplan area:

View attachment 196955
(image shows Southern Gateway area with my predicted location highlighted)

I'd say this would be far more likely to be proposed than a new alignment going through St James Market, which for those unfamiliar with the area is the large white building in the centre of the picture just underneath the bottom left corner of your highlighted site.

And as everyone can see, it's even further away from the centre, which would make it even harder to reach and thus even dafter. I don't believe for a moment that the government is going to throw 9 or 10 figure sums at a new alignment for this, it would throw up so many objections when there are many other potential improvements that can be made around the region. And there isn't going to be a new NPR line from Manchester so the clowns at City Hall will probably be left with something like this to choose from. Most of the area you've highlighted in red is light industrial, and not particularly pleasant to walk through even for people working there, let alone people walking to catch a train. So unless the entire area was redeveloped before the station opened, it would be very badly received and would certainly generate a lot of opposition.

 

[Noddy]

I'd say this would be far more likely to be proposed than a new alignment going through St James Market, which for those unfamiliar with the area is the large white building in the centre of the picture just underneath the bottom left corner of your highlighted site.

And as everyone can see, it's even further away from the centre, which would make it even harder to reach and thus even dafter. I don't believe for a moment that the government is going to throw 9 or 10 figure sums at a new alignment for this, it would throw up so many objections when there are many other potential improvements that can be made around the region. And there isn't going to be a new NPR line from Manchester so the clowns at City Hall will probably be left with something like this to choose from. Most of the area you've highlighted in red is light industrial, and not particularly pleasant to walk through even for people working there, let alone people walking to catch a train. So unless the entire area was redeveloped before the station opened, it would be very badly received and would certainly generate a lot of opposition.

Just for clarity the area highlighted in red is the so called Southern Gateway area - ‘a 126 hectare regeneration site’ according to the council. It’s taken from the snazzy Southern Gateway website that has next to no useful information but it does have some pretty pictures! As you noted St James market is the large white building. I’ve added a green arrow to point it out. In my opinion there is zero chance of a station happening here, it simply won’t have the business case.

 

[Grimsby town]

Just for clarity the area highlighted in red is the so called Southern Gateway area - ‘a 126 hectare regeneration site’ according to the council. It’s taken from the snazzy Southern Gateway website that has next to no useful information but it does have some pretty pictures! As you noted St James market is the large white building. I’ve added a green arrow to point it out. In my opinion there is zero chance of a station happening here, it simply won’t have the business case.

View attachment 196970

All the information points to St James Market currently though. I'm going to step away from being as deeply involved now because it's clear there's a million different ideas about what this station is and we simply don't know that currently.

If the location was the blue area then I'd certainly be leaning towards other people opinions that it's an unsuitable. The St James Market site is easily walkable to most of the city centre for most people. It'd likely to be a 1km walk just to reach interchange for the Wakefield Road/Hall Lane site.

 

[Halifaxlad]

If the location was the blue area then I'd certainly be leaning towards other people opinions that it's an unsuitable. The St James Market site is easily walkable to most of the city centre for most people. It'd likely to be a 1km walk just to reach interchange for the Wakefield Road/Hall Lane site.

Are you referring to the Interchange in its current location ?

 

[Grimsby town]

Are you referring to the Interchange in its current location ?

Yes it would be around 1km walking distance to the entrance of the current Interchange station on Bridge Street.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Yes it would be around 1km walking distance to the entrance of the current Interchange station on Bridge Street.

You do realize that the Interchange is going to move ?

 

[Bantamzen]

Just for clarity the area highlighted in red is the so called Southern Gateway area - ‘a 126 hectare regeneration site’ according to the council. It’s taken from the snazzy Southern Gateway website that has next to no useful information but it does have some pretty pictures! As you noted St James market is the large white building. I’ve added a green arrow to point it out. In my opinion there is zero chance of a station happening here, it simply won’t have the business case.

View attachment 196970

Of course even putting aside the issues with it's distance from the centre, that site would have other issues too. You couldn't use the existing line for the station without digging out a considerable hole as the line at that point has dived into the deep cutting as it drops towards the Interchange. So any station would have to use the old avoiding line, which whilst the alignment just about survives, would effectively be like building a new one as roads & building has encroached across parts of it. Plus the bridge across Wakefield Road looks like it's seen better days, and could well need replacing. All this and a new station is again going to leave the project needing nine figure sums at least.

With the St James Market idea, it would require a new alignment getting from the incline at the top left of the shaded area, then through a new station, down and swinging around to the south to join the line out towards the top right of the shaded area. This would probably need some tunnelling, cuttings, or bridges to get under / over some of the obstacles and gradient changes. Again this is going to be a hugely expensive job. So is it really good value just to save a few minutes further down the line, because this is literally all it will deliver without significant changes along the Calder Valley?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

 

[Palmerston]

Leaving aside whether it's value for money, if a new station was 5 minutes walk (400m) away from the current station, does that help people from Halifax? The annual flow of journeys Halifax-Bradford are about 110,000, but Halifax-Leeds is 257,000. Hebden Bridge is 55,000 to Leeds; 19,000 to Bradford. Overall, it probably would save time, if it speeds up the journey to Leeds, given more people benefit. Clearly, that doesn't benefit those specifically going to/from Bradford so it would seem reasonable to make central government fund this. If a tram was also in place that joined the two stations together that seems to offset some of the downside, but not so much if it doesn't open for 10 years (or never).

 

[Bantamzen]

Leaving aside whether it's value for money, if a new station was 5 minutes walk (400m) away from the current station, does that help people from Halifax? The annual flow of journeys Halifax-Bradford are about 110,000, but Halifax-Leeds is 257,000. Hebden Bridge is 55,000 to Leeds; 19,000 to Bradford. Overall, it probably would save time, if it speeds up the journey to Leeds, given more people benefit. Clearly, that doesn't benefit those specifically going to/from Bradford so it would seem reasonable to make central government fund this. If a tram was also in place that joined the two stations together that seems to offset some of the downside, but not so much if it doesn't open for 10 years (or never).

But are these few minutes saved worth spending hundreds of millions on?

 

[Palmerston]

But are these few minutes saved worth spending hundreds of millions on?

No. On their own, clearly not.

If you want a much busier station e.g. more trains down the Calder Valley, a fast Manchester service down the new route to Huddersfield, direct services to Sheffield and maybe hourly quick trains to London, that's worth spending money on.

If Interchange can't handle all of this, something new might be needed. I'm not sure if you could keep it open as a small terminal just for traffic in one direction, presumably from Leeds, which would stop at both stations. A bit like Cannon Street and London Bridge.

 

[Bantamzen]

No. On their own, clearly not.

If you want a much busier station e.g. more trains down the Calder Valley, a fast Manchester service down the new route to Huddersfield, direct services to Sheffield and maybe hourly quick trains to London, that's worth spending money on.

If Interchange can't handle all of this, something new might be needed. I'm not sure if you could keep it open as a small terminal just for traffic in one direction, presumably from Leeds, which would stop at both stations. A bit like Cannon Street and London Bridge.

Well aside from a vague line drawn on a map, we are a long way from even a new Huddersfield line, which in itself would cost many big bags of money. And for Bradford to Huddersfield? Would that be worth it, probably not.

The best thing for Bradford would be to help reduce times a bit by ditch the RailUK Bradford Avoiding Fantasy Line for once and for all, instead concentrating on getting the full route wired. It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility, and certainly for far less cash to expand the Interchange with another island platform in due course, especially if the bus station is moved or reconfigured.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Well aside from a vague line drawn on a map, we are a long way from even a new Huddersfield line, which in itself would cost many big bags of money. And for Bradford to Huddersfield? Would that be worth it, probably not.

The best thing for Bradford would be to help reduce times a bit by ditch the RailUK Bradford Avoiding Fantasy Line for once and for all, instead concentrating on getting the full route wired. It would not be beyond the bounds of possibility, and certainly for far less cash to expand the Interchange with another island platform in due course, especially if the bus station is moved or reconfigured.

Building a new line between Bradford & Huddersfield is more worth while than spending billions to save 10 miniutes off Leeds to Manchester. Which will be a quarter of the journey time post TRU. Bradford - Huddersfield is over 40 miniutes, but could be halved!

What's the point causing untold amount of disruption to wire the line when Northern are procuring bi-modes ?

Actual track infrastructure like a 3rd platform for Halifax, loops on the Calder Valley would be much more value for money than wiring the route to change the traction from diesel to electric!