London Cannon Street barriers at fault

[ngood77]

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Hi all,

I thought I’d create a separate thread for a topic that I initially started in the main Rail Uk Tickets thread (see link above), because I’d like your informed and considered responses to the response that I’ve received today from Southeastern (attached) which, to me, is simply wrong. But I’m sure you can put it better than that !

I will then send them a link to this thread and ask that they pursue the matter further.

Many thanks in advance for your help.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes they are definitely wrong, restrictions such as off-peak restrictions do not mean it's invalid to get a train under the minimum connection time, even if the train would not have been able to be made without that connection.
The ticket is valid for any trains departing a station on a valid route after the restricted time, that same ticket would be valid on the 10:02 from London Bridge to Cannon Street, for example if you only needed to go from London Bridge in the morning, and go to Tonbridge on the way back, it's only 5p more than a single to buy a return and not use most of the outbound portion.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hopefully they read this thread too. That's sheer incompetence, they are wrong. How a fares team cannot interpret a restriction code is staggering really.

 

[Mattplans]

So - according to them - the ticket is valid at London Bridge but not Cannon Street?

 

[MrJeeves]

Hopefully they read this thread too. That's sheer incompetence, they are wrong. How a fares team cannot interpret a restriction code is staggering really.

I'd like to think that either (a) the fares team weren't asked about the earlier train part of the query and the support team tried to work it out themselves, or (b) the fares team weren't given the full picture, and were rather addressing that it's an "invalid itinerary/connection" in the concept of compensation eligibility rather than it not being permitted to make that earlier connection with the ticket...

It's still an incredibly incompetent response on the whole, though.

 

[ngood77]

that same ticket would be valid on the 10:02 from London Bridge to Cannon Street, for example

Great point

 

[MotCO]

More precisely, the other thread referred to the restriction F4 as follows:

Restrictions​

Applicable Days​

Monday to Friday
Mondays to Fridays

Outward Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 03:59 and before 10:00, except:

• 09:50 from Hastings to Charing Cross
• 09:53 from St. Leonards Warrior Square to Charing Cross
• 09:57 from West St. Leonards to Charing Cross

Also valid on the connecting 08:25 Southern service from Ashford to Hastings

• 09:58 from Paddock Wood to Charing Cross
• 09:08 from Ramsgate to St Pancras
• 09:22 from Sandwich to St Pancras
• 09:28 from Deal to St Pancras
• 09:32 from Walmer to St Pancras
• 09:37 from Martin Mill to St Pancras
• 09:50 from Dover Priory to St Pancras
• 09:47 from Margate to St Pancras
• 09:53 from Broadstairs to St Pancras
• 09:53 from Ramsgate to Victoria
• 09:56 from Dumpton Park to Victoria

• Return Travel​

  Not valid on trains timed to depart after 03:59 and before 10:00

The train at 10.40 from London Bridge to Cannon Street is 2T71 which is a Cannon Street to Cannon Street via Bexleyheath, which is not one of the trains listed above, so the ticket is valid on the 10.40 London Bridge to Cannon Street train.

​

 

[ngood77]

More precisely, the other thread referred to the restriction F4 as follows:



The train at 10.40 from London Bridge to Cannon Street is 2T71 which is a Cannon Street to Cannon Street via Bexleyheath, which is not one of the trains listed above, so the ticket is valid on the 10.40 London Bridge to Cannon Street train.

​

Hi. I don’t follow that argument I’m afraid, could you expand ? Thanks.

 

[MotCO]

Hi. I don’t follow that argument I’m afraid, could you expand ? Thanks.

Based on the previous thread, your ticket had a restriction code of F4. My previous post listed those trains which you cannot use with a ticket with restriction code F4, and the train from London Bridge to Cannon Street was not on that list. Therefore you should be able to use your ticket on the 10.40 from London Bridge to Cannon Street.

 

[MrJeeves]

My previous post listed those trains which you cannot use with a ticket with restriction code F4

You've listed trains which you can use with the ticket, despite falling outside the time restrictions of the restriction.

It's much simpler to say that the ticket is valid on services on or after 10am, and boarding the 10:40 from London Bridge is clearly taking a train after 10am.

 

[redreni]

This really is not good enough.

It makes you think, is it reasonable of us to worry as much as we do about LLMs getting stuff wrong and hallucinating things, when one contemplates some of the people it might be about to replace, and some of the claptrap they come out with?

 

[MotCO]

You've listed trains which you can use with the ticket, despite falling outside the time restrictions of the restriction.

It's much simpler to say that the ticket is valid on services on or after 10am, and boarding the 10:40 from London Bridge is clearly taking a train after 10am.

Apols - I misread the list.

 

[MikeWh]

So - according to them - the ticket is valid at London Bridge but not Cannon Street?

No. The train from Tonbridge doesn't go to Cannon Street so you have to change. What they're saying is that if you allow the minimum connection time at London Bridge, the first Cannon Street train you can catch is the 1051. They are saying that that will be valid. If the trains are all on time then it's possible to get the 1040, especially if you're positioned next to the escalators when you arrive at London Bridge and are happy to join the next train next to the escalators.

I must admit that checking the time to such a degree seems overkill. @ngood77: Have you tried using the 1040 but waiting at Cannon Street until the 1051 gets in? I wonder where the cut off is?

None of the above changes the fact that as long as you board a train departing at or after 1000, the ticket is valid.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No. The train from Tonbridge doesn't go to Cannon Street so you have to change. What they're saying is that if you allow the minimum connection time at London Bridge, the first Cannon Street train you can catch is the 1051. They are saying that that will be valid. If the trains are all on time then it's possible to get the 1040, especially if you're positioned next to the escalators when you arrive at London Bridge and are happy to join the next train next to the escalators.

I must admit that checking the time to such a degree seems overkill. @ngood77: Have you tried using the 1040 but waiting at Cannon Street until the 1051 gets in? I wonder where the cut off is?

None of the above changes the fact that as long as you board a train departing at or after 1000, the ticket is valid.

Mike - I wonder if they are looking only at the start time for 2T71, which is 09.15 from Cannon Street on the outbound leg of the loop, and applying that to the inbound bit as well? Unlike a Thameslink loop service, these Cannon Street rounders keep the same headcode for the whole journey... so if they aren't looking properly...?

 

[MikeWh]

Mike - I wonder if they are looking only at the start time for 2T71, which is 09.15 from Cannon Street on the outbound leg of the loop, and applying that to the inbound bit as well? Unlike a Thameslink loop service, these Cannon Street rounders keep the same headcode for the whole journey... so if they aren't looking properly...?

I don't think it's that, because the 1051 is 2P23 which is a Woolwich and Bexleyheath rounder which leaves Cannon Street at 0926.

Other points to note are that the 1040 arrives on platform 3 at Cannon Street and the 1051 arrives on platform 2, either side of the same island. Also, the same tickets from Tunbridge Wells and High Brooms on the 1000 from Tonbridge are not valid because they leave before 1000.

 

[ngood77]

@ngood77: Have you tried using the 1040 but waiting at Cannon Street until the 1051 gets in? I wonder where the cut off is?

Not that specific scenario but I don’t think it really matters what train I get from LB, does it ? The test is before and after 10.55. Or are you saying that the barriers have a link up to train arrival times ?

I have arrived on the 10.51 many times and the gates open without issue but not since I’ve had my 10.40 problem. I shall try this again at the next opportunity.

The other test I want to do is buy a ticket to London Terminals which won’t have the Cannon St itinerary on it, and use it on the 10.40 to CS. If that works ok then it would suggest the smoking gun is the itinerary of the ticket being incorrectly checked as a restriction.

 

[redreni]

If that works ok then it would suggest the smoking gun is the itinerary of the ticket being incorrectly checked as a restriction.

And believed by Customer Relations to be a restriction, so much so that they're telling passengers it is.

This needs to be nipped in the bud, because in reality, except for those willing to get their elbows out, the restrictions are whatever they're believed to be and enforced as being on the ground.

It is possible to make a connection between the Charing Cross platforms and the Cannon Street platforms in 3 minutes flat, without running, but the MCT is 15 minutes. The idea that holders of off-peak tickets must adhere to the MCTs is wrong. The idea that they must begin their journey at the origin station on their ticket is wrong. They could begin the journey at London Bridge.

I can understand that the TOCs are going to want to use scan and tap data to enforce peak restrictions, yet they're trying to do so in a really crude way that demonstrates why they can't really be trusted to hold and process this data responsibly. If the ticket was tapped in at the origin station, or any station along a valid route (i.e. starting short) at a valid time, then the exit barrier shouldn't be rejecting it full stop.

I can just about understand if there was no tap in and the exit takes place after peak restrictions have ended, but before the first service arrives on which an off-peak journey from the origin could have been made, that you would want the barrier to reject the ticket for manual inspection. Arriving sooner than you could have got there from the origin doesn't prove you travelled at peak time, because you might have started short somewhere ungated or where the gates were open. But I can see why they'd want the passenger to be asked where they got on, and maybe investigate if it looks sus. But it is inappropriate to use the MCT to calculate which is the first service the passenger could have used.

You're only looking to rule out physically impossible connections, not any connection that a journey planner wouldn't offer as a copper-bottomed guarantee because it's a bit tight. Especially where the MCT is 15 minutes but the connection can be made in 3.

Edit: I do understand the TOCs are doubtless constrained by the logic they can use to program barriers without incurring enormous costs. What I'm saying, though, is you can't substitute the elegant logic you want for something more crude if the effect is to stop people doing something that's reasonable and commonplace and permitted. Instead, if the elegant solution isn't possible, choose something crude that is more permissive (like accepting off-peaks after peak restrictions have ended).

 

[Mattplans]

No. The train from Tonbridge doesn't go to Cannon Street so you have to change. What they're saying is that if you allow the minimum connection time at London Bridge, the first Cannon Street train you can catch is the 1051. They are saying that that will be valid.

I wonder if one day the train is diverted to Cannon Street if it will be accepted then.

 

[MikeWh]

I wonder if one day the train is diverted to Cannon Street if it will be accepted then.

It would have to be, but that is a tangent that doesn't really help the OPs issue.

 

[saismee]

The reason for the ticket being rejected with 19 is usually that the barrier is programmed to only accept it after a certain time. In this case it's rejecting a super off-peak ticket because it considers it "too early". In my experience, this is supposed to happen while a peak-time train (simplification) is still yet to depart, and to allow barrier staff to ensure the passenger is boarding the correct train. It's frustrating for passengers and barrier staff, but it's just how these are programmed. I'm unsure whether it would be Cubic or Southeastern who need to update the base data.

At my station this happens and the "justification" is that the last peak and first off-peak trains depart too close together. It's a stupid reason because it also rejects tickets a good 30 minutes after the last peak-time departures for other destinations have left.

Less related: GA has a problem with "Weekender Return" (or sometimes "Weekend Return") tickets, where they will always give code 19 no matter the date or time!

 

[redreni]

The code 19 is an inconvenience for the OP, though he doesn't state in post #1 whether he has had any additional difficulty beyond having to wait for a member of staff to let him through?

The response from Southeastern (essentially 'you're breaking the rules by making a connection at London Bridge that doesn't respect the MCT, and this means your flexible off-peak ticket isn't valid') is a further problem because it is completely wrong and it makes things much more difficult in terms of resolving any friction at the gateline when the OP's ticket is rejected with Code 19.

He can scarcely show that email to the gateline staff, can he? It's doubly troubling because it says they've checked with the fares team and this is what they were told: one almost hopes they're lying and they did not check with the fares team before sending that balderdash out to a customer.

Hopefully the replies here will give the OP something to go back with and he will get a more helpful and competent response from Southeastern.

 

[ngood77]

The code 19 is an inconvenience for the OP, though he doesn't state in post #1 whether he has had any additional difficulty beyond having to wait for a member of staff to let him through?

The response from Southeastern (essentially 'you're breaking the rules by making a connection at London Bridge that doesn't respect the MCT, and this means your flexible off-peak ticket isn't valid') is a further problem because it is completely wrong and it makes things much more difficult in terms of resolving any friction at the gateline when the OP's ticket is rejected with Code 19.

He can scarcely show that email to the gateline staff, can he? It's doubly troubling because it says they've checked with the fares team and this is what they were told: one almost hopes they're lying and they did not check with the fares team before sending that balderdash out to a customer.

Hopefully the replies here will give the OP something to go back with and he will get a more helpful and competent response from Southeastern.

My experience wasn’t great…

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2026 ==

Ok here is the corrected response from SE, at least I feel vindicated somewhat.

I bought a ticket this morning to London Terminals but selected London Bridge as the destination giving an itinerary of 10.00-10.36 from Tonbridge. I made the 10.40 at LB, arriving CS 10.43, but still the gate blocked me. Staff let me through eventually.

 

[MrJeeves]

Ok here is the corrected response from SE, at least I feel vindicated somewhat.

I think it's a good response from Southeastern, but ultimately it's the response which should have been given to begin with! It's also good that they are going to try and get the gateline data amended to permit travel with the ticket on the earlier journey.

From past experience with similar issues at GTR stations, Cubic might take a couple of weeks to update the gates. Hopefully Southeastern will update you with the outcome of this request.

 

[ngood77]

I think it's a good response from Southeastern, but ultimately it's the response which should have been given to begin with! It's also good that they are going to try and get the gateline data amended to permit travel with the ticket on the earlier journey.

From past experience with similar issues at GTR stations, Cubic might take a couple of weeks to update the gates. Hopefully Southeastern will update you with the outcome of this request.

I can’t help but feel though that it’s just a sticky plaster solution to permit this sole journey. It would be better if the gates opened if the ticket is valid regardless of any itinerary. Enforcement of start times should be done at the start, or on the train itself.

Funnily enough I did also complain some weeks ago because the gates at Tonbridge wouldn’t open before 10am, and they did actually get changed which was pleasing.

 

[Mattplans]

It would be better if the gates opened if the ticket is valid regardless of any itinerary. Enforcement of start times should be done at the start, or on the train itself.

Yes… I imagine if the ticket is being presented at the destination station the journey has already been done and the railway has missed its opportunity to enforce the time restriction.

 

[redreni]

A much more reasonable response than the first one.

They still think they can assume any ticket they check in circumstances where the person couldn't have got there by train from the origin on the ticket compliantly with the restrictions, must be invalid.

They're wrong about that, but it may not be wise to push them too hard on this particular point, as it will probably be taken as proof that off-peak restrictions are too difficult to enforce and that flexible off-peak tickets should be scrapped so that everybody is constrained by their itinerary. To make it easier for staff.

A journey to Cannon Street, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Waterloo East or Charing Cross involving a change at London Bridge is an excellent example of a journey where restricting the passenger to one specific train between London Bridge and their destination is a ridiculous imposition. It would be a ridiculous imposition even if the MCT wasn't 10 minutes longer than most people are going to take to change trains at London Bridge.

Nobody who cares about the passenger experience would suggest such a thing.

 

[MrJeeves]

I can’t help but feel though that it’s just a sticky plaster solution to permit this sole journey. It would be better if the gates opened if the ticket is valid regardless of any itinerary. Enforcement of start times should be done at the start, or on the train itself.

That would be great, but ultimately this is the fault of both the gateline supplier and the rail industry itself.

Data on magstripe tickets is very limited, and many barcode tickets don't encode the ticket's restriction code correctly within the barcode, despite it being a specification requirement.

There's only so much that can be done to validate the data of tickets when the data isn't particularly useful.

 

[ChilliSauce]

It makes me wonder if South-East had read this thread and realised they had actually given a wrong answer to the question / query.

 

[saismee]

That would be great, but ultimately this is the fault of both the gateline supplier and the rail industry itself.

I believe the data involved is in the hands of the TOC rather than the gateline supplier. This is what I was told by a CTS tech recently, as Cubic were charging for each change to the data, and now the TOCs can freely update it remotely.

 

[OscarH]

I believe the data involved is in the hands of the TOC rather than the gateline supplier. This is what I was told by a CTS tech recently, as Cubic were charging for each change to the data, and now the TOCs can freely update it remotely.

Ultimately though, while the TOCs need to be able to setup overrides, the base time restriction coding should be pulled from the daily fares data by Cubic and applied automatically (at the very least for barcode tickets against a recent enough version of the spec to have the restriction code, but it should really be able to determine the restriction code for older spec barcode tickets).