ScotRail Suburban Fleet (EMU and BEMU) Market Engagement

[Stephen42]

I notice the deadline for submitting a bid (I think) was yesterday January 19th. Hopefully there won’t be any delays and a the contract will be awarded by the summer. With any luck they’ll get theirs in before the operators down south.

Yesterday was the deadline for requesting to participate. That starts the Pre Qualifying Question (PQQ) stage where anyone who wants to participate answers questions to demonstrate their suitability to perform the contract. After the PQQ stage will be down to 5 selected bidders, the invitation date to tender in the main stage is listed as 19th July 2026. As always with public procurements its rare all the target dates get hit. That is the main stage of work for bidders, the equivalent dates were May 2024 for Southeastern and November 2025 for Northern.

The procurement notice also contains this paragraph:

It is anticipated that ScotRail will conduct a second procurement process, in parallel to this one, to secure an owner / financier who will purchase and own the new Suburban Fleet and then lease these to ScotRail and any successor operator.

That parallel procurement hasn't turned up yet and will also take several months for each stage. I personally don't think they'll award earlier than mid-2027 and the commencement date of April 2028 in the notice is plausibly the planned award date.

 

[SC318250]

Class 156 lease extension is only for 38 units, so 4 going off lease, not sure which ones

 

[Ben Conlin]

Most of it is behind a paywall but Siemens have released more details on their Desiro Verve train which could be one the contenders for this procurement. 23M units, level boarding with probably a ramp/step inside given the varying window heights in the image. 100mph capable on battery with a 50 mile range. https://www.modernrailways.com/article/siemens-desiro-verve-battery-electric-train

 

[Snow1964]

Most of it is behind a paywall but Siemens have released more details on their Desiro Verve train which could be one the contenders for this procurement. 23M units, level boarding with probably a ramp/step inside given the varying window heights in the image. 100mph capable on battery with a 50 mile range. https://www.modernrailways.com/article/siemens-desiro-verve-battery-electric-train

Siemens have the article without a paywall

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:b7064485-daf2-413a-8ed7-b70c427a3852/Siemens-Mobilitys-British-built-battery-trains-creates-a-buzz-for-DMU-alternatives_original.pdf

suggesting only 25-30% of a route needs electrifying to be able to operate, and there is a rail charging converter also available (a small electricity supply unit which can make 25kv from local electricity supply network). However it doesn't say if this is just for a single 3car unit on a branch line. It certainly wouldn't be powerful enough for multiple trains including freight on a mainline.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Siemens have the article without a paywall

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:b7064485-daf2-413a-8ed7-b70c427a3852/Siemens-Mobilitys-British-built-battery-trains-creates-a-buzz-for-DMU-alternatives_original.pdf

suggesting only 25-30% of a route needs electrifying to be able to operate, and there is a rail charging converter also available (a small electricity supply unit which can make 25kv from local electricity supply network). However it doesn't say if this is just for a single 3car unit on a branch line. It certainly wouldn't be powerful enough for multiple trains including freight on a mainline.

Would surely need gangways added as Scotrail has specified them for the Class 380s and 385s.

 

[Snow1964]

Would surely need gangways added as Scotrail has specified them for the Class 380s and 385s.

It rather depends on where they will be used. If an order was for 5car 23m, then it is close to same length as two x 3car 318 / 320. Few metres shorter overall, but does't have 2 cabs in the middle, so passenger compartment length is similar.

Some lines don't have platforms long enough for pairs of 3car 23m units (which are around 138m long), and if not going to operate in multiple, then end gangways are wasted.

I have no idea how Scotrail will deploy or cascade units around its routes, and of course a new BEMU could combine two routes that currently operate with electric one part, and a separate DMU service. Having BEMUs allows a lot of potential reorganisation of routes and re optimisation of fleet allocations

 

[RUK]

Would surely need gangways added as Scotrail has specified them for the Class 380s and 385s.

SIEMENS’ render for the version of the Desiro Verve U.K. with a gangway looks like their Class 717 Desiro City with a gangway added, but with plug doors rather than pocket doors, rather than the gangway-less version of the Verve U.K., which looks like the new Mireo which they have in continental Europe:

 

[RiverDon]

Siemens have the article without a paywall

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:b7064485-daf2-413a-8ed7-b70c427a3852/Siemens-Mobilitys-British-built-battery-trains-creates-a-buzz-for-DMU-alternatives_original.pdf

I like the suspiciously Scotrail-esque colour scheme on the train in this article.

 

[hwl]

Siemens have the article without a paywall

https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:b7064485-daf2-413a-8ed7-b70c427a3852/Siemens-Mobilitys-British-built-battery-trains-creates-a-buzz-for-DMU-alternatives_original.pdf

suggesting only 25-30% of a route needs electrifying to be able to operate, and there is a rail charging converter also available (a small electricity supply unit which can make 25kv from local electricity supply network). However it doesn't say if this is just for a single 3car unit on a branch line. It certainly wouldn't be powerful enough for multiple trains including freight on a mainline.

25-30% is sensibly do-able if the optimum 25-30% is electrified, no more than 50 miles off the wires and a single battery technology - there are lots of caveats behind that 25-30% range. In most cases the optimum 25-30% electrified won't be but luckily Siemens can sell you (or rather NR) a product to help NR get close to the optimum sections electrified along the route along the route.

Siemens quote in the last column of the article about batteries lasting half the train life aligns with Siemens swapping to LTO (and abandoning NMC etc) in Summer 2025, the "25-30%" is very difficult without LTO (or a monster-sized pack of any other technology).

 

[snookertam]

Would surely need gangways added as Scotrail has specified them for the Class 380s and 385s.

The plan is for fixed length trains, most likely 5 x 23m carriages.

 

[AilsaBus]

The plan is for fixed length trains, most likely 5 x 23m carriages.

Official Source?

 

[waverley47]

Official Source?

I can confirm this, but I cannot give a source. TS and ScotRail have not yet made a decision, however there is a desire for a standardised fleet with a single common coach length, and one single type of train. There is a negotiation going on over whether or not its acceptable to reduce Fife services to a standard 5x23m length, as opposed to the current mixed bag of anywhere between two and six coaches; you lose maximum length but gain aggregate capacity.

If this is deemed acceptable, and we can figure out how we're going to find space for them all, then the standardised five coach length will be the preferred option. If not, then it will be a mix of 3 and 5 coach trains.

We are awaiting the final list of five preferred bidders, but I can say that more than five very robust bids were submitted, these are being sifted.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I like the suspiciously Scotrail-esque colour scheme on the train in this article.

Right. Carriages almost look like a 334

 

[Snow1964]

We are awaiting the final list of five preferred bidders, but I can say that more than five very robust bids were submitted, these are being sifted.

I wonder if the 5 preferred bidders is a target quantity that can be flexed, or has been fixed regardless of if there are say 15 bids, but 6 stand out.

I have seen instances in the past where daftly stuck to target even if they are one good bid short, so add in a rubbish one to make up the number and waste time.

 

[snookertam]

I can confirm this, but I cannot give a source. TS and ScotRail have not yet made a decision, however there is a desire for a standardised fleet with a single common coach length, and one single type of train. There is a negotiation going on over whether or not its acceptable to reduce Fife services to a standard 5x23m length, as opposed to the current mixed bag of anywhere between two and six coaches; you lose maximum length but gain aggregate capacity.

If this is deemed acceptable, and we can figure out how we're going to find space for them all, then the standardised five coach length will be the preferred option. If not, then it will be a mix of 3 and 5 coach trains.

We are awaiting the final list of five preferred bidders, but I can say that more than five very robust bids were submitted, these are being sifted.

All I can say here is that there will be a sensible outcome, and there will be a Transport Scotland outcome

 

[ABB125]

All I can say here is that there will be a sensible outcome, and there will be a Transport Scotland outcome

You mean to say that what Transport Scotland want is not necessarily the same as a "sensible" plan? Shock horror!

 

[380101]

Would surely need gangways added as Scotrail has specified them for the Class 380s and 385s.

ScotRail never specified front end gangways on the 380 or 385 - Transport Scotland did!

The Class 380 and 385 were originally designed without a gangway.

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

Must be a horror to drive though, hardly and space to see

 

[tfw756rider]

Must be a horror to drive though, hardly and space to see

Especially before the reflective curved windscreens on the 385s were replaced with non-reflective flat ones.

 

[Mrwerdna1]

Would be nice to see more Siemens trains on the network. They are, on the whole, very sturdy and comfortable. Bit sad that we haven't seen a replacement to the excellent Desiro UK trains anywhere yet (deliberately not counting Desiro City), though the Desiro Verve UK would perhaps come closest. It's been 12 years since the last batch (350/3s for London Midland) were introduced, 16 years for Scotrail's 380s.

 

[Scotrail344Lad]

Would be nice to see more Siemens trains on the network. They are, on the whole, very sturdy and comfortable. Bit sad that we haven't seen a replacement to the excellent Desiro UK trains anywhere yet (deliberately not counting Desiro City), though the Desiro Verve UK would perhaps come closest. It's been 12 years since the last batch (350/3s for London Midland) were introduced, 16 years for Scotrail's 380s.

Indeed

 

[RUK]

Would be nice to see more Siemens trains on the network. They are, on the whole, very sturdy and comfortable. Bit sad that we haven't seen a replacement to the excellent Desiro UK trains anywhere yet (deliberately not counting Desiro City), though the Desiro Verve UK would perhaps come closest. It's been 12 years since the last batch (350/3s for London Midland) were introduced, 16 years for Scotrail's 380s.

I’m not a fan of Desiro UKs - their doors are very slow. Desiro Cities’ have a design flaw in that their smaller toilets’ doors are on casters which roll by themselves and slam open and shut as the train moves.

Must be a horror to drive though, hardly and space to see

I wish the U.K. had trains like the DSB Class MF, where the gangway is wide, forming the whole outside of the front (like the inner gangways on newer trains), and the whole inner front is a standard, wider driving position, which is a whole door/compartment which swings out of the way when open. They might not be very good-looking (no trains with outer end gangways are anyway, and they look better to me than some narrow-gangway ones), but they look practical. I feel like their unusual appearance gives them some charm.

 

[Roger B]

A DSB Class MF (photo from Wikipedia)

Saying they're "not very good-looking' barely does them credit!

 

[Rick1984]

The class 156 have been great servants but they are getting a bit knackered. One I got recently had multiple tables off with black and yellow hazard tape. Not sure why as there wasn't obvious damage

 

[och aye]

A quote and a CGI render from this Scotsman article confirming that the trains will have level boarding.

'Bumpy' introduction of ScotRail's new multi-billion pound train fleet expected

Pledge to avoid past mistakes which dogged ScotRail’s last five new fleet launches

www.scotsman.com

'Bumpy' start to ScotRail's new multi-billion pound train fleet expected​

The ScotRail chief said they would have level access boarding, such as for passengers in wheelchairs, at stations with platforms at the same height, which “takes barriers away from people using the railway”.

 

[N1]

A quote and a CGI render from this Scotsman article confirming that the trains will have level boarding.

Wow, they are truly awful AI generated images. I cant find a Scotrail press release as the source of those, can anyone confirm they have been produced by Scotrail?

 

[TrainViation]

Wow, they are truly awful AI generated images. I cant find a Scotrail press release as the source of those, can anyone confirm they have been produced by Scotrail?

I can 99.9% guarantee that they’re not produced by ScotRail, as those renders are ridiculously low quality, and don’t actually convey any proper idea since half of the images don’t make sense. I’ve also never seen ScotRail use AI before, minus their Class 380 announcements, so I very much doubt it is real.

 

[jh64]

Those images are absolutely dreadful. Par for the course for AI rubbish.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The ScotRail chief said they would have level access boarding, such as for passengers in wheelchairs, at stations with platforms at the same height, which “takes barriers away from people using the railway”.

That seems to me to be a bit of a political smokescreen from ScotRail in that it is:

a) A blinding statement of the obvious - if the platforms are the same height, of course the boarding will be level.

b) Doesn't commit anyone to changing platform heights or anything at any other stations.

 

[Class83]

I can confirm this, but I cannot give a source. TS and ScotRail have not yet made a decision, however there is a desire for a standardised fleet with a single common coach length, and one single type of train. There is a negotiation going on over whether or not its acceptable to reduce Fife services to a standard 5x23m length, as opposed to the current mixed bag of anywhere between two and six coaches; you lose maximum length but gain aggregate capacity.

If this is deemed acceptable, and we can figure out how we're going to find space for them all, then the standardised five coach length will be the preferred option. If not, then it will be a mix of 3 and 5 coach trains.

We are awaiting the final list of five preferred bidders, but I can say that more than five very robust bids were submitted, these are being sifted.

Is the person making the decision ex SPT? For Fife and Borders 3 or 6 23m vehicles would be preferred, for Glasgow 5 23m vehicles. Unsurprising it sounds like Scotrail ignoring the Fife services as usual. A split East 3 car with enough units for peak doubles, West 5 car order would seem sensible.