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So what happens when the final 150s go in the bin and there's nothing left to cover? Do TfW have enough 153s in storage to put back into passenger service in south Wales and on Rhymney to Bridgend?
So what happens when the final 150s go in the bin and there's nothing left to cover? Do TfW have enough 153s in storage to put back into passenger service in south Wales and on Rhymney to Bridgend?
I was thinking about that BUT that might overall mean more crew training as competency on 158s outside the Cambrian Coast service group must have lapsed a long while ago.
As for 398s I wonder how daunting that list is when compared to other new fleets entering service. Needs the view from someone who has knowledge of say 197 introduction and 398 introduction. How much can be assumed to just be "teething problems". It will be interesting to see how many of these problems are down to unit design, unit construction OR infrastructure. I for one am aware that software updates being needed is completely normal and inevitable.
The units tested at Asfordby might all be coming back because there is enough infrastructure in South Wales now, because TfW have given up OR that type testing is completed (and unit testing was never expected to be done up there).
My gut feeling is that it would have been better to order far more 756s and thus completely miss out on the issues from another new fleet (398s). But I am not paying !.
Question. I thought the 398s being tram trains were restricted to a limited number of network rail routes due to their smaller flanges (to suit shallow rail slots used in areas of on street running). So how come they can be moved from the Midlands to Cardiff by rail ?. They were delivered by road ?.
So what happens when the final 150s go in the bin and there's nothing left to cover? Do TfW have enough 153s in storage to put back into passenger service in south Wales and on Rhymney to Bridgend?
All CVL no longer sign Class 153, notices went out before Christmas and licences have been updated removing competency.
Class 197’s have developed cracks, similar to the IET and require stretcher bars to be fitted by CAF. Availability is poor now on a daily basis and I imagine you’ll see the 158’s for a little while longer.
The Stadler A team were modifying class 398‘s to try and create a reliable product, however now they’ve got a bigger contract in Germany for the metro out there, this has taken priority. The team in Taffs Well now are limited in terms of support, the B team.
It‘s not good situation at the moment, if the 398 doesn’t come out by May there’s also a talk of funding having to be returned to the EU As well.
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I was thinking about that BUT that might overall mean more crew training as competency on 158s outside the Cambrian Coast service group must have lapsed a long while ago.
As for 398s I wonder how daunting that list is when compared to other new fleets entering service. Needs the view from someone who has knowledge of say 197 introduction and 398 introduction. How much can be assumed to just be "teething problems". It will be interesting to see how many of these problems are down to unit design, unit construction OR infrastructure. I for one am aware that software updates being needed is completely normal and inevitable.
The units tested at Asfordby might all be coming back because there is enough infrastructure in South Wales now, because TfW have given up OR that type testing is completed (and unit testing was never expected to be done up there).
My gut feeling is that it would have been better to order far more 756s and thus completely miss out on the issues from another new fleet (398s). But I am not paying !.
Question. I thought the 398s being tram trains were restricted to a limited number of network rail routes due to their smaller flanges (to suit shallow rail slots used in areas of on street running). So how come they can be moved from the Midlands to Cardiff by rail ?. They were delivered by road ?.
Rail adventure was awarded a contract to transport these to the test track in old Derby. The Class 398 was not allowed to be tested on the mainline due to issues beyond the control of TFW. So, they paid more money to have them accumulate hours on a test track instead. Plus while there have some items changed and updated. I think they are RA3.
The 398 is a light rail vehicle, it is fitted with AWS and TPWS to be able to run on a heavy rail. However, what TFW intends to use them for is more train than tram, and they’re not designed for it. Taffs Well is also a light rail facility and they will be maintained to light rail standards there.
Each one of these needs to achieve around 1000hrs fault free running before it can be signed off. A number which the Welsh government is moving to try and get them out.
It does sound like the 398s are having an excessive amount if teething problems. But I dont think there is a viable alternative - at least in the short to medium term....
It does sound like the 398s are having an excessive amount if teething problems. But I dont think there is a viable alternative - at least in the short to medium term....
Let's just suppose for a minute that the 398s are a failure and never enter service...whilst TfW might have a claim against Stadler for the fleet, and a new extra fleet of 231s or 756s will be needed...there's the matter of a brand new, multi million £ depot in Taffs Well that will become a white elephant and a very visible symbol of the 398s failure.
TfW might be able to get some money back from Stadler if the 398s fail, but they won't get any money back for the Taffs Well depot, and might even lose money if the EU demands structural funding is returned. I'm assuming the entire depot would need to be re-built to make it suitable as a heavy rail depot for FLIRTs, if that's even possible on the available land there.
The only working piece of infrastructure there would be the CVL control centre.
If the 398s are not in service this year, beyond extending the lifespan of TfW's remaining 150s, or re-training Valleys crews on 153s for Rhymney and Vale of Glam/Penarth services, there aren't many other options other than replacement buses once the remaining 150s have gone
158s stay on the Cambrian as long as possible
197s cover more South Wales diagrams - Cambrian sets are currently available and would be if 158s continue, some 197s could be taken from the Manchester diagrams where not
This will need some provision for maintaining the 197s at Canton, because there are capacity constraints at Chester that are already hamstringing the fleet. To use all the Cambrian 197s requires Machynlleth so even now there are 197s doing nothing while 197s diagrams are uncovered. Under the Chester constraint there is only splitting Manchester trains open.
Of course, the hope is that the 398s can be fixed and in service soon.
So what happens when the final 150s go in the bin and there's nothing left to cover? Do TfW have enough 153s in storage to put back into passenger service in south Wales and on Rhymney to Bridgend?
And what if Stadler are meeting the contract and have built them to the specification TfW set? If the root cause is TfW’s specification being incorrect, what then?
And what if Stadler are meeting the contract and have built them to the specification TfW set? If the root cause is TfW’s specification being incorrect, what then?
And what if Stadler are meeting the contract and have built them to the specification TfW set? If the root cause is TfW’s specification being incorrect, what then?
I think you are right and it is likely that Stadler have not done something wrong contract wise. With such a large investment already made money will be spent to sort this out. It will not be popular BUT will be less expensive and less unpopular than abandoning the fleet and Taffs Well (aka "Walnot Tree") depot.
I do wonder how much Stadler will sit back and do nothing given they might otherwise be in a position to supply some more Flirts for other services (to cover a perceived shortage of 197s and perhaps other non Valleys services). The need for more more units on TfW has been hinted at in the past.
2 of those 9 Valleys 150 diagrams are a 4 car VOG. So could be short formed and 8 150 diagrams required.
The issue with the 197's is CAF Chester are only required to maintain and provide 56 for service until they start on the Cambrian and Machynlleth Depot start maintaining them, so TFW won't see any increase in 197 fleet for service even when all 77 are delivered.
Canton will be doing light maintenance on 197's, but will never do any kind of heavier maintenance other than repairs.
It would make more sense to get the 197's introduced onto the Cambrian and cascade the 158's to South Wales. Canton can take over the maintenance for them as they are already setup for full maintenance on them. Most Mainline crews sign them or could be easily be trained on them.
They can operate Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Cheltenham as well as Cardiff - Bridgend VOG services, all signed by mainline crews and route cleared. It would reduce the requirement of 197's stabled at Canton overnight for those routes which would free up space on Canton.
231's stay on Valleys
150 diagrams are reduced with 158's covering VOG. Remaining diagrams covered by remaining 150's and 153's brought back.
Minimal disruption and more efficient fleet usage.
The 153s at Landore are reportedly in warm storage so are easily viable to be brought back into service if required. Take a few of the somewhat recent reappearances of a few 153/9s alongside non-AT 153/3s. (153329 and 153914 today 26.01.26 for example...)
The 153s at Landore are reportedly in warm storage so are easily viable to be brought back into service if required. Take a few of the somewhat recent reappearances of a few 153/9s alongside non-AT 153/3s. (153329 and 153914 today 26.01.26 for example...)
I thought tfw were going tp be re activating some 153s at landore in storage to provide extra capacity while they also order additional new trains especially woth euro 2028 approaching
I thought tfw were going tp be re activating some 153s at landore in storage to provide extra capacity while they also order additional new trains especially woth euro 2028 approaching
They already have, I think there's 5 153s that have returned from service with two of them (329 and 914 as mentioned in my previous post) in service today. I'm sure more will come and go as time goes on and more space is freed up by 150s leaving Canton.
I can see the service between Bridgend & Rhymnney getting split in Cardiff with 153s used between Bridgend & Cardiff and 231s used for the Northern section depending on staffing.
Although knowing TfW and the dislike they have for the VoG line it will probably be a replacement bus from Barry to Bridgend with Barry Island getting 4tph.
I can see the service between Bridgend & Rhymnney getting split in Cardiff with 153s used between Bridgend & Cardiff and 231s used for the Northern section depending on staffing.
Although knowing TfW and the dislike they have for the VoG line it will probably be a replacement bus from Barry to Bridgend with Barry Island getting 4tph.
VoG residents need to get whoever it is that lives on the Maesteg line in TfW fleet control to move onto the VoG. Somehow Maesteg can get one of the 197/1s with Standard Premium while a 197/0 gets sent to Manchester. (This is only a joke)
It really feels like there will need to be a solution to allow lighter maintenance of the 197s to be done somewhere in South Wales so that the full fleet can be used. It seems more logical to have 158s stay doing the Cambrian rather than the 158s coming south.
Does this tie in with the maintenance contracts TfW were letting on the 158s for 3 years?
VoG residents need to get whoever it is that lives on the Maesteg line in TfW fleet control to move onto the VoG. Somehow Maesteg can get one of the 197/1s with Standard Premium while a 197/0 gets sent to Manchester. (This is only a joke)
It really feels like there will need to be a solution to allow lighter maintenance of the 197s to be done somewhere in South Wales so that the full fleet can be used. It seems more logical to have 158s stay doing the Cambrian rather than the 158s coming south.
Does this tie in with the maintenance contracts TfW were letting on the 158s for 3 years?
Its the heavy maintenance that is the issue. Until Machynlleth depot start maintaining the ETCS units, there will never be more than 56 197s in service because Chester can only deal with that many as part of the heavy maintenance regime.
If 197s are introduced on the cambrian all 77 can be in service, which frees up 21 158s to work elsewhere.
Canton are already setup to do all maintenance on 158s.
I can see the service between Bridgend & Rhymnney getting split in Cardiff with 153s used between Bridgend & Cardiff and 231s used for the Northern section depending on staffing.
Its the heavy maintenance that is the issue. Until Machynlleth depot start maintaining the ETCS units, there will never be more than 56 197s in service because Chester can only deal with that many as part of the heavy maintenance regime.
If 197s are introduced on the cambrian all 77 can be in service, which frees up 21 158s to work elsewhere.
Canton are already setup to do all maintenance on 158s.
231s don't go to Bridgend yet, they work Barry Island services.
That is the plan, yes. Though I did think I had read that Machynlleth was only light maintenance on the 197s and the heaviest jobs would still be at Chester.
However, what could be done at Machynlleth could be done elsewhere since Machynlleth have not started doing it yet.
If it is easier to switch over then that is also a possibility. Switch the Cambrian to 197s and send the 158s south. However, that feels like it has a bigger training requirement versus just having more 197s in the south. Ultimately depends how hard it is to get the planned Machynlleth 197 maintenance done at a different depot.
If it is easier to switch over then that is also a possibility. Switch the Cambrian to 197s and send the 158s south. However, that feels like it has a bigger training requirement versus just having more 197s in the south. Ultimately depends how hard it is to get the planned Machynlleth 197 maintenance done at a different depot.
The only 197 Depots for exams are Chester and eventually Machynlleth. Chester will be doing the more heavy stuff but Machynlleth will be doing exams in the same way they do 158s.
Why create another Depot regime on a temporary basis when Machynlleth will eventually be doing them anyway?
Canton, if they start doing any maintenance on 197's will only be basic light maintenance and basic repairs to take the pressure off Chester.
Canton is, and always has been a maintenance Depot for 158's. The only thing they don't do are the big C exams.
Most mainline crews apart from some links still sign them, although most Carmarthen crews have probably lost their compliance now. I doubt it would take much to train up crews in the South.
Its the heavy maintenance that is the issue. Until Machynlleth depot start maintaining the ETCS units, there will never be more than 56 197s in service because Chester can only deal with that many as part of the heavy maintenance regime.
If 197s are introduced on the cambrian all 77 can be in service, which frees up 21 158s to work elsewhere.
Canton are already setup to do all maintenance on 158s.
231s don't go to Bridgend yet, they work Barry Island services.
However they work Cardiff to Rhymnney as part of the Barry Island services. Hence why the suggestion of potentially splitting the Bridgend - Rhymnney at Cardiff, assuming on staff
However they work Cardiff to Rhymnney as part of the Barry Island services. Hence why the suggestion of potentially splitting the Bridgend - Rhymnney at Cardiff, assuming on staff
TfW have 11 x 231s and a maximum of 8 are currently in service daily. So technically another 2 more could be in service on an hourly Rhymney - Cardiff diagram that is split from Bridgend, with 1 spare. But maybe 8 is the maximum that can be in service on any day, with 3 undergoing maintenance? As there's still 1 Barry Island diagram daily that's a 150.
But eventually the 150s will run out of time or will need expensive overhauls to be kept in service.
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