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Forthcoming changes to National Rail Conditions of Travel

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure about that, but I know it wasn't permitted until quite recently.

The old wording was still useful in a way though wasn't as generous as the current wording. You couldn't non-stop split with a normal single or return, but you could (because "one was a season ticket for that purpose and one was not" or some such) join a regular season ticket to one to create something basically the same as a London Travelcard but in two bits. Indeed I remember Chorley station used to have a handwritten sign in the booking office window suggesting doing this by combining a GM CountyCard with a regular season to the boundary and it being valid on non stop trains, as it was cheaper than a point to point season and gave you bus travel and city centre Metrolink on top.

What one of the PTEs had, possibly Metro, was a condition explicitly banning this combination.

14.1 still allows this exclusion:

Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets.
 
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yorksrob

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It was, and they still do...

Condition 4.6 of the M-Card Terms state: "4.6. If your train journey destination is outside of West Yorkshire, You need to buy a ticket for the onward journey to your destination from the last station in West Yorkshire where your train stops. Failure to buy a ticket before boarding may result in a penalty fare from the train operator." (https://www.m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/) These terms were last updated May 2025, so would not necessarily be considered 'out of date'.

NRCOT says "14.1 Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets."

And also says "14.3 Unless Condition 14.1 applies,.....then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid." in relation to splits.




So, it could possibly argued that the ticket office is correct, and an MCard is excluded on non-stop splits as it is specifically excluded in 4.6 of the M Card Terms, and NRCOT 14.1 allows it to be excluded from 14.3 by virtue of the terms and conditions of that ticket.

No, it specifically included in the conditions of travel as a zonal ticket.

I've only had one guard challenge me on this, and he said that XC specifically excludes these tickets on their trains.

Its hard to see what benefit Metro would get for disadvantaging their residents in such a way.
 

redreni

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So, it could possibly argued that the ticket office is correct, and an MCard is excluded on non-stop splits as it is specifically excluded in 4.6 of the M Card Terms, and NRCOT 14.1 allows it to be excluded from 14.3 by virtue of the terms and conditions of that ticket.
I can't fault this reasoning, but I would suggest the appropriate response to any PTE (or whatever they're called now) doing this is to complain bitterly about it at every opportunity and, in this case, buy it as an e-ticket or as a PRT. The last message the other PTEs (or whatever they're called now) need to get is that West Yorkshire are doing this and nobody seems to mind.
 

Solent&Wessex

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No, it specifically included in the conditions of travel as a zonal ticket.

14.3 says: "Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid."

So it is specifically excluded from 14.3 by virtue of 14.1.

By virtue of the commas and the "or" later on the "Unless Condition 14.1 applies" bit does not just apply to Season Tickets, but any of the options noted.

14.1 allows tickets to be excluded from 14.3 if the ticket's own Terms say so.

4.6 of the M Card Terms say you need to stop at the station where you change tickets.

Therefore by virtue of M Card Terms 4.6 and NRCOT 14.1, it is excluded from the provisions in 14.3. And therefore 14.2 applies, which states the train must stop where you change tickets.


Whether it is practical or possible or necessary to ever enforce it in reality, either because of staff knowledge or train's stopping patterns, or whatever, is a different matter.
 

redreni

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14.3 says: "Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid."

So it is specifically excluded from 14.3 by virtue of 14.1.

By virtue of the commas and the "or" later on the "Unless Condition 14.1 applies" bit does not just apply to Season Tickets, but any of the options noted.

14.1 allows tickets to be excluded from 14.3 if the ticket's own Terms say so.

4.6 of the M Card Terms say you need to stop at the station where you change tickets.

Therefore by virtue of M Card Terms 4.6 and NRCOT 14.1, it is excluded from the provisions in 14.3. And therefore 14.2 applies, which states the train must stop where you change tickets.


Whether it is practical or possible or necessary to ever enforce it in reality, either because of staff knowledge or train's stopping patterns, or whatever, is a different matter.
Well, hang on, just like 14.3, 14.2 only applies if 14.1 doesn't.

So maybe there *is* a problem with this analysis after all?

Maybe 14.1 purportedly allows splitting to be banned outright, but does not allow splitting to be permitted subject to conditions other than those set out in the NRCoT 14.2 or 14.3 (which of 14.2 or 14.3 applies being dependent on the types of tickets you hold).
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe 14.1 purportedly allows splitting to be banned outright

In practice it doesn't, because you can always step off and back on the train and then you've made two journeys. However, it possibly is part of what allows for there to exist tickets where splitting is not physically possible without breaking the journey, such as the use of Oyster or contactless payment in the Oval/TfL area. If splitting was always allowed with no exceptions, there'd have to be a means to split using those without leaving the train, and there isn't.
 

yorksrob

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14.3 says: "Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid."

So it is specifically excluded from 14.3 by virtue of 14.1.

By virtue of the commas and the "or" later on the "Unless Condition 14.1 applies" bit does not just apply to Season Tickets, but any of the options noted.

14.1 allows tickets to be excluded from 14.3 if the ticket's own Terms say so.

4.6 of the M Card Terms say you need to stop at the station where you change tickets.

Therefore by virtue of M Card Terms 4.6 and NRCOT 14.1, it is excluded from the provisions in 14.3. And therefore 14.2 applies, which states the train must stop where you change tickets.


Whether it is practical or possible or necessary to ever enforce it in reality, either because of staff knowledge or train's stopping patterns, or whatever, is a different matter.

I'm not convinced that condition 14.1 does apply to metrocards though, at least not intentionally. As @TUC pointed out, the Metro document in question hasn't even been updated since the relevant change to the Conditions of Travel.

Also is the document in question the definitive set of conditions ? (I'll have to dig out my correspondence).
 

35B

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Its hard to see what benefit Metro would get for disadvantaging their residents in such a way.
It would be interesting to understand how the costs are handled to allow mterocards to be used on rail - Northern won't be doing it for love. I suspect that the condition on the metrocard helps limit the amount they have to pay to rail operators to have their tickets used.
Well, hang on, just like 14.3, 14.2 only applies if 14.1 doesn't.

So maybe there *is* a problem with this analysis after all?

Maybe 14.1 purportedly allows splitting to be banned outright, but does not allow splitting to be permitted subject to conditions other than those set out in the NRCoT 14.2 or 14.3 (which of 14.2 or 14.3 applies being dependent on the types of tickets you hold).
To "specifically exclude" does not mean the exclusion has to be absolute - the exclusion in 4.6 is absolutely clear. NRCOT 14 isn't a great piece of drafting, but Metrocard 4.6 is absolutely clear in its intent, so would be caught up under 14.1, meaning that journeys beyond the final stop in West Yorkshire are not covered by the Metrocard. The list of ticket types in 14.3 is an attempt to provide clarity that non-point to point tickets have their own treatment, but any such ticket is covered by the exclusion in 14.1.
 

yorksrob

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It would be interesting to understand how the costs are handled to allow mterocards to be used on rail - Northern won't be doing it for love. I suspect that the condition on the metrocard helps limit the amount they have to pay to rail operators to have their tickets used.

To "specifically exclude" does not mean the exclusion has to be absolute - the exclusion in 4.6 is absolutely clear. NRCOT 14 isn't a great piece of drafting, but Metrocard 4.6 is absolutely clear in its intent, so would be caught up under 14.1, meaning that journeys beyond the final stop in West Yorkshire are not covered by the Metrocard. The list of ticket types in 14.3 is an attempt to provide clarity that non-point to point tickets have their own treatment, but any such ticket is covered by the exclusion in 14.1.

I still wonder whether Metro have just brought forward obsolete wording for the condition and whether this is actually intentional.
 

Starmill

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What one of the PTEs had, possibly Metro, was a condition explicitly banning this combination.
I don't think it could ever have been them because if you read their own PDF from 2018, it specifically states:

"If you have two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, the train does not need to stop at the station where they change from one ticket to another."

So for Yorksrob's case of a zonal season ticket it wouldn't apply regardless.

14.3 says: "Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to Call at that station for your combination to be valid."

So it is specifically excluded from 14.3 by virtue of 14.1.

By virtue of the commas and the "or" later on the "Unless Condition 14.1 applies" bit does not just apply to Season Tickets, but any of the options noted.

14.1 allows tickets to be excluded from 14.3 if the ticket's own Terms say so.

4.6 of the M Card Terms say you need to stop at the station where you change tickets.

Therefore by virtue of M Card Terms 4.6 and NRCOT 14.1, it is excluded from the provisions in 14.3. And therefore 14.2 applies, which states the train must stop where you change tickets.
No, this interpretation is definitely wrong. The PDF from 2018 above contradicts it specifically.
 

Starmill

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To "specifically exclude" does not mean the exclusion has to be absolute - the exclusion in 4.6 is absolutely clear. NRCOT 14 isn't a great piece of drafting, but Metrocard 4.6 is absolutely clear in its intent, so would be caught up under 14.1, meaning that journeys beyond the final stop in West Yorkshire are not covered by the Metrocard. The list of ticket types in 14.3 is an attempt to provide clarity that non-point to point tickets have their own treatment, but any such ticket is covered by the exclusion in 14.1.
Again, no. 14.1 can have two possible effects, either use of more than one ticket for a journey is permitted or it's not permitted. It can't be partly permitted, it either is or isn't. In this case it is permitted, as clarified by the leaflet from 2018 and other WYCA publications over the years.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I'm not convinced that condition 14.1 does apply to metrocards though, at least not intentionally. As @TUC pointed out, the Metro document in question hasn't even been updated since the relevant change to the Conditions of Travel.

Also is the document in question the definitive set of conditions ? (I'll have to dig out my correspondence).

I still wonder whether Metro have just brought forward obsolete wording for the condition and whether this is actually intentional.

I don't think it could ever have been them because if you read their own PDF from 2018, it specifically states:

"If you have two or more zonal tickets in combination or one is a rail season ticket and one is not, the train does not need to stop at the station where they change from one ticket to another."

So for Yorksrob's case of a zonal season ticket it wouldn't apply regardless.


No, this interpretation is definitely wrong. The PDF from 2018 above contradicts it specifically.

Again, no. 14.1 can have two possible effects, either use of more than one ticket for a journey is permitted or it's not permitted. It can't be partly permitted, it either is or isn't. In this case it is permitted, as clarified by the leaflet from 2018 and other WYCA publications over the years.


Just for clarity, I am NOT referring to the 2018 document from Metro.

I am referring to the May 2025 Terms of Use of M Cards published on the M-Card website at:

https://www.m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/

May 2025 seems to be most up to date set of Terms and Conditions for M Cards and is the current online version, rather than a pdf of a now 8 year old leaflet.

Incidentally these terms seem to apply to all the M Card products, including Day Savers.
 

redreni

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To "specifically exclude" does not mean the exclusion has to be absolute
You may have a point.

If they'd had it in mind, when they drafted it, that exclusions might not be absolute, then I'm sure to be safe they would have said something like "specifically exclude or limit". Otherwise it leaves room for doubt.

Just to check, I am right in thinking the West Yorks Day Ranger is still available in a variety of formats of which MCard is only one? In which case, surely the MCard T&Cs are not the T&C's for the Ticket under discussion (the West Yorks Day Ranger). They are the T&Cs for a medium on which the ticket can be (but doesn't have to be) held.

In which case, obviously they wouldn't apply if the ticket is held on another medium, but can they even engage 14.1 *at all*, given they are not the T&Cs of the ticket?
 

Starmill

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Just for clarity, I am NOT referring to the 2018 document from Metro.

I am referring to the May 2025 Terms of Use of M Cards published on the M-Card website at:

https://www.m-card.co.uk/terms-of-use/

May 2025 seems to be most up to date set of Terms and Conditions for M Cards and is the current online version, rather than a pdf of a now 8 year old leaflet.

Incidentally these terms seem to apply to all the M Card products, including Day Savers.
The terms were the same in 2018 though so I don't see how that has any effect on anything. If we ignore the leaflet then your interpretation still wouldn't be right for the reason explained in #492. When you were checking tickets in 2018 did you follow the guidelines in the leaflet or did you make the argument that the ticket wasn't valid for the same reasons you're doing today? Clearly, though, if you choose to cherry pick a specific interpretation of the rule to fit your pre-existing conclusions about what is and isn't allowed, then you'll only ever come to one conclusion - you're right and everyone else is wrong :). Funny how many people see the world in that way.
 

TUC

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I still wonder whether Metro have just brought forward obsolete wording for the condition and whether this is actually intentional.
To be honest, I would not trust Metro to have the competence to have considered the nuances of the NRCoT. Even references in the terms and conditions referred to above make no effort to correspond to NRCoT wording (even if that wording were to specifically exclude split ticketing availability by referring to condition 14.1).
 

Starmill

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To be honest, I would not trust Metro to have the competence to have considered the nuances of the NRCoT. Even references in the terms and conditions referred to above make no effort to correspond to NRCoT wording (even if that wording were to specifically exclude split ticketing availability by referring to condition 14.1).
I would say the reverse, the Metro conditions are written with far less ambiguity and lacunae than the drafting in use in the NRCoT. The latter is very poor indeed, pretty much throughout, there are lots of words but they aren't at all definitive about meaning and don't address lots of important possibilities.
 

35B

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The terms were the same in 2018 though so I don't see how that has any effect on anything. If we ignore the leaflet then your interpretation still wouldn't be right for the reason explained in #492. When you were checking tickets in 2018 did you follow the guidelines in the leaflet or did you make the argument that the ticket wasn't valid for the same reasons you're doing today? Clearly, though, if you choose to cherry pick a specific interpretation of the rule to fit your pre-existing conclusions about what is and isn't allowed, then you'll only ever come to one conclusion - you're right and everyone else is wrong :). Funny how many people see the world in that way.
14.1 is unambiguous - "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets". Clause 4.6 of the Metro Card T&Cs is absolutely clear cut on this - there is no room for doubt.

14.2 and 14.3 are irrelevant to this; the clarity of Metro Card Clause 4.6 about how it may be used with other tickets means that 14.1 is immediately engaged. 14.2 and 14.3 set out the general position regarding one off point to point tickets (14.2) and other tickets (14.3); in both cases those rights are conditional on 14.1.

This is not a limitation on the right to use split tickets, but a condition about which split tickets may be used with that particular ticket. It is no different in principle, though opposite in effect, to the requirement to have a ticket from Boundary Zone x rather than the edge station (e.g. BZ6 rather than Surbiton) if using a non-stop train.

This is not about whether or not I like that provision - like you, I very much don't. 14.1 as now drafted leaves a wide open space for other ticket issuers to put similarly restrictive provisions on their tickets, to your and my detriment. The ultimate conclusion of this could very easily be a set of rights that are effectively unusable because of restrictions on those other tickets that override the general position.
 

Starmill

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This is not a limitation on the right to use split tickets
It is. That's what 14.1 says.
but a condition about which split tickets may be used with that particular ticket.
14.1 doesn't provide for that. It only provides for two tickets one journey, or two tickets two journeys.

This is not about whether or not I like that provision - like you, I very much don't.
I didn't say that. Also, this issue doesn't affect me personally anyway, as I don't use any West Yorkshire products on trains frequently and haven't done so at all for years now.

It is no different in principle, though opposite in effect, to the requirement to have a ticket from Boundary Zone x rather than the edge station (e.g. BZ6 rather than Surbiton) if using a non-stop train.
Which requirement is this? Can you elaborate?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In practice it doesn't, because you can always step off and back on the train and then you've made two journeys. However, it possibly is part of what allows for there to exist tickets where splitting is not physically possible without breaking the journey, such as the use of Oyster or contactless payment in the Oval/TfL area. If splitting was always allowed with no exceptions, there'd have to be a means to split using those without leaving the train, and there isn't.
It's worth noting that using two tickets for two journeys has other important consequences. For example, you can claim a refund on the second ticket if it's for a second journey and you never started using it because the train was cancelled, say. And similarly you can't claim compensation for one journey if you have two tickets and make two journeys. You also can't claim your reasonable costs for alternative transport in respect of a subsequent journey if all trains are cancelled on your travel day, for example, only the first journey.
 
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AdamWW

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In practice it doesn't, because you can always step off and back on the train and then you've made two journeys.

Presumably though you if you have two non-conbinable tickets and therefore are considered to be making two journeys you would then lose your rights to treat it as a single journey for Delay Repay purposes, or using an Advance on a later train having missed a connection. Neither of which would be terribly helpful if for some reason this became a widespread issue.

I have read that in (the Republic of) Ireland split ticketing is supposed to be illegal so presumably they don't buy the argument that jumping off and on again makes it a separate journey.

Anyway returning to the wider discussion, I can't see how Metro 4.6 can be interpreted as excluding use with other tickets. Surely it's just laying down a rule for how it is to be used with other tickets - in fact it's making it clear that it is very much valid with other tickets otherwise it wouldn't need to add restrictions.

For Metro 4.6 to have an effect wouldn't 14.1 have to say something like "Some tickets may have specific restrictions on how they may be used with other tickets", not "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets."?
 

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Presumably though you if you have two non-conbinable tickets and therefore are considered to be making two journeys you would then lose your rights to treat it as a single journey for Delay Repay purposes, or using an Advance on a later train having missed a connection. Neither of which would be terribly helpful if for some reason this became a widespread issue.
Precisely so.
 

yorksrob

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It seems fairly pointless having a national conditions of travel if every Tom Dick and Harry and their pet ferret are allowed to override it.
 

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I have read that in (the Republic of) Ireland split ticketing is supposed to be illegal so presumably they don't buy the argument that jumping off and on again makes it a separate journey.
The key difference being of course that the prices of tickets on Irish Rail are generally set in a specific way that you don't need to use more than one regardless. If you have say a Taxsaver Annual and want to extend your journey to the next station at one end then that is a specifically permitted use of an "additional ticket" by Irish Rail.
 

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I would say the reverse, the Metro conditions are written with far less ambiguity and lacunae than the drafting in use in the NRCoT. The latter is very poor indeed, pretty much throughout, there are lots of words but they aren't at all definitive about meaning and don't address lots of important possibilities.
My point was that, whichever approach is considered preferable, Metro does not appear to have given any consideration to changes in the NRCoT.
 

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My point was that, whichever approach is considered preferable, Metro does not appear to have given any consideration to changes in the NRCoT.
I don't see any reason why that's wrong, yes. I'm not sure it's a reliable interpretive guideline though. The Consumer Rights Act however is a reliable guideline, and it provides that in case of contracts between consumers and non-consumers with any doubt about the meanings of the terms, the correct interpretation of their meanings is the one that's most favourable to the consumer.
 

Wolfie

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It seems fairly pointless having a national conditions of travel if every Tom Dick and Harry and their pet ferret are allowed to override it.
Agreed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don't see any reason why that's wrong, yes. I'm not sure it's a reliable interpretive guideline though. The Consumer Rights Act however is a reliable guideline, and it provides that in case of contracts between consumers and non-consumers with any doubt about the meanings of the terms, the correct interpretation of their meanings is the one that's most favourable to the consumer.
Yup, and it would be so sad if West Yorkshire got a kicking in the Courts....
 

redreni

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The MCard T&Cs state at the top that they apply when you buy an MCard ticket. I've searched the T&Cs and the website in vein for a definition of "MCard ticket". The website has an FAQ "what is an MCard?" which essentially says it's a Smartcard or an app that allows you to store MCard tickets on your phone. Nowhere does it suggest the WY DaySave tickets always necessarily have to be MCard tickets. I can only assume a ticket is an MCard ticket if it is issued to the MCard app or a physical MCard.

The only times I've ever bought a WY DaySave ticket it has been at a ticket office outside West Yorkshire and it has been issued as a PRT.

But let's assume somebody does buy the ticket at a ticket office and it is issued on an MCard. Is 14.1 NRCoT engaged? Well, look at the wording. "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets." Does 4.6 of the MCard T&C's do that?

I'd argue no, it doesn't, it says if you want to do that then you need to buy a ticket from the station in WY where your train stops to wherever you're going. You have to deduce that, if you *need* to do that, then non-stop splits as described in NRCoT must be excluded. Either that, or whoever wrote the MCard T&C's just didn't turn their mind to the situation where a passenger wishes to make a non-stop split under 14.3, or didn't know about 14.3. It doesn't specifically say your ticket isn't valid if you split at a station where the train doesn't stop. It can be taken to imply it.

14.1 goes on "This (the exclusion of a ticket's use in conjunction with another) will be made clear in the Terms and Conditions when you buy such Tickets." Does 4.6 of the MCard T&Cs make it clear? Not particularly. Not as much as if it expressly referenced 14.1 NRCoT to make it clear it was actually saying MCard tickets are not valid in conjunction with another ticket if the train doesn't call at the split point. And is it made clear in the MCard T&Cs *when you purchase a WY DaySave ticket on an MCard*? I wouldn't know because I have never bought an MCard ticket. But if it isn't made clear, e.g. if nobody flags that the ticket is subject to special and more restrictive T&C's than the same ticket issued on another medium when they sell it to you, then again, I struggle to see how 14.1 is engaged.

I do agree it would be much better to just bin off 14.1 altogether, but for as long as it remains, I suggest any attempt by TOCs to rely on it should be met with resistance wherever possible. This might include pointing out that any T&Cs purporting to exclude or limit splitting in line with the NRCoT were not made clear at point of purchase, as 14.1 NRCoT requires.
 
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35B

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The MCard T&Cs state at the top that they apply when you buy an MCard ticket. I've searched the T&Cs and the website in vein for a definition of "MCard ticket". The website has an FAQ "what is an MCard?" which essentially says it's a Smartcard or an app that allows you to store MCard tickets on your phone. Nowhere does it suggest the WY DaySave tickets always necessarily have to be MCard tickets. I can only assume a ticket is an MCard ticket if it is issued to the MCard app or a physical MCard.

The only times I've ever bought a WY DaySave ticket it has been at a ticket office outside West Yorkshire and it has been issued as a PRT.

But let's assume somebody does buy the ticket at a ticket office and it is issued on an MCard. Is 14.1 NRCoT engaged? Well, look at the wording. "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets." Does 4.6 of the MCard T&C's do that?

I'd argue no, it doesn't, it says if you want to do that then you need to buy a ticket from the station in WY where your train stops to wherever you're going. You have to deduce that, if you *need* to do that, then non-stop splits as described in NRCoT must be excluded. Either that, or whoever wrote the MCard T&C's just didn't turn their mind to the situation where a passenger wishes to make a non-stop split under 14.3, or didn't know about 14.3. It doesn't specifically say your ticket isn't valid if you split at a station where the train doesn't stop. It can be taken to imply it.

14 1 goes on "This (the exclusion of a ticket's use in conjunction with another) will be made clear in the Terms and Conditions when you buy such Tickets." Does 14.6 of the MCard T&Cs make it clear? Not particularly. Not as much as if it expressly referenced 14.1 NRCoT to make it clear it was actually saying MCard tickets are not valid in conjunction with another ticket if the train doesn't call at the split point. And is it made clear in the MCard T&Cs *when you purchase a WY DaySave ticket on an MCard*? I wouldn't know because I have never bought an MCard ticket. But if it isn't made clear, e.g. if nobody flags that the ticket is subject to special and more restrictive T&C's than the same ticket issued on another medium when they sell it to you, then again, I struggle to see how 14.1 is engaged.
Firstly, I suggest you actually read the MCard Terms. Not just 4.6, but all of them. They are very clear about who/what MCard is, and 14.6 makes complete sense once this is acknowledged:
For the purposes of these Terms and Conditions, MCard is the West Yorkshire Ticketing Company Ltd (WYTCL), Metro is the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA) and the Ticket Purchaser is you (You) or in limited cases, your employer.
In other words, "MCard" is a retailer, and not the medium on which the ticket is held.

The condition applicable to the day ticket is no less clear than any other condition on tickets.

That leads to interpretation. I think this argument built out of the structure of Clause 14 of NRCOT is back to front. The condition of travel is engaged when buying the MCard ticket. That condition in clause 4.6 of the MCard T&Cs is explicitly that you need to buy the other half of a split from the last station in the West Yorkshire area that your train stops at. It doesn't talk to the wider rules of split ticketing because it doesn't need to - it defines a specific provision for how it may be used.
14.1 doesn't provide for that. It only provides for two tickets one journey, or two tickets two journeys.
@Starmill demonstrates this. The focus on Section 14 rights due to the operation of 14.2 and 14.3 is blinding people to the plain english meaning of 14.1, which doesn't say anything about the number of tickets per journey, whether 1, 2 or 100. To repeat, the clause is very simple - "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets".
I do agree it would be much better to just bin off 14.1 altogether, but for as long as it remains, I suggest any attempt by TOCs to rely on it should be met with resistance wherever possible. This might include pointing out that any T&Cs purporting to exclude or limit splitting in line with the NRCoT were not made clear at point of purchase, as 14.1 NRCoT requires.
I don't disagree. But if we're taking such a rigorous view of conditions, surely that requires that every purchaser, of every ticket, is expressly advised of every condition, every time they purchase them - not just MCard 4.6, but anything that may be relevant. We're expected to be able, as responsible adults, check the conditions that apply to our purchases - and this information is straightforwardly available.

I'd rather that 14.1 wasn't there, and I'd rather that WYCTL didn't apply that condition. But I struggle to understand how there can be opposition as a matter of law, rather than as consumer and political (for those in the relevant area) protest.
 

AdamWW

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6 Nov 2012
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6,032
@Starmill demonstrates this. The focus on Section 14 rights due to the operation of 14.2 and 14.3 is blinding people to the plain english meaning of 14.1, which doesn't say anything about the number of tickets per journey, whether 1, 2 or 100. To repeat, the clause is very simple - "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets".

14.1 indeed says tickets can be excluded from split ticketing. It doesn't say that they can have their own special rules about how they are used for split ticketing.

4.6 Clearly isn't an exclusion from split-ticketing - quite the reverse; by claming to control how they are used for split ticketing it's making it clear that they can be.

I suppose the argument would have to be that 14.1 is to be interpreted as "Some tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with some or all other tickets"

And maybe that it show someone with legal experience would read it, but to me it doesn't pass the plain English test.
 

Wolfie

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17 Aug 2010
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7,448
Firstly, I suggest you actually read the MCard Terms. Not just 4.6, but all of them. They are very clear about who/what MCard is, and 14.6 makes complete sense once this is acknowledged:

In other words, "MCard" is a retailer, and not the medium on which the ticket is held.

The condition applicable to the day ticket is no less clear than any other condition on tickets.

That leads to interpretation. I think this argument built out of the structure of Clause 14 of NRCOT is back to front. The condition of travel is engaged when buying the MCard ticket. That condition in clause 4.6 of the MCard T&Cs is explicitly that you need to buy the other half of a split from the last station in the West Yorkshire area that your train stops at. It doesn't talk to the wider rules of split ticketing because it doesn't need to - it defines a specific provision for how it may be used.

@Starmill demonstrates this. The focus on Section 14 rights due to the operation of 14.2 and 14.3 is blinding people to the plain english meaning of 14.1, which doesn't say anything about the number of tickets per journey, whether 1, 2 or 100. To repeat, the clause is very simple - "Some Tickets specifically exclude their use in conjunction with other Tickets. This will be made clear in the terms and conditions when buying such Tickets".

I don't disagree. But if we're taking such a rigorous view of conditions, surely that requires that every purchaser, of every ticket, is expressly advised of every condition, every time they purchase them - not just MCard 4.6, but anything that may be relevant. We're expected to be able, as responsible adults, check the conditions that apply to our purchases - and this information is straightforwardly available.

I'd rather that 14.1 wasn't there, and I'd rather that WYCTL didn't apply that condition. But I struggle to understand how there can be opposition as a matter of law, rather than as consumer and political (for those in the relevant area) protest.
Your logic is predicated upon West Yorkshire being the most important entity. Frankly, when they are purporting to impose local restrictions upon a national rule l would find that absolutely farcical. Whatever Yorkshire egotism thinks....
 

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