Quirky or quaint practices on buses in the past

[DunsBus]

Both United Automobile and West Yorkshire Road Car had alpha numeric systems until the 1960s when new fangled computers meant they moved to purely numeric. West Yorkshire, for instance, had a SUG (Single Underfloor Gardner) or CRG (Coach Rear Gardner).

Eastern Scottish also had an alpha numeric system, plus an end letter to denote allocation. I'll let @DunsBus have a go at explaining them all!

I'll definitely have a go.

Single Deckers

A - Bristol
B - AEC
C - Bedford
D - Daimler
H - Leyland (until 1984)
L - Leyland (from 1984)
M - MCW Metroliner
O - Optare MetroRider, also the sole Omni
R - Renault minibuses
S - Seddon
V - Volvo


Double Deckers

AA - Bristol Lodekka
DD - Daimler/Leyland Fleetline
EE - the four Dennis Dominators which were in the fleet for a brief spell in 1986
HH - Leyland Olympian (until 1984)
LL - Leyland Olympian/Lion (from 1984)
MM - MCW Metroliner
VV - Volvo Ailsa/Citybus


Prefixes

C - Citylink coach
M - Minibus
X - Toilet coach
Y - Touring coach
Z - Dual purpose

This could throw up some interesting combinations. ZS was a dual-purpose Seddon, YL a coach Tiger, but then you had this - XCMM denoted an MCW Metroliner double decker coach, with toilet, used on Citylink work.

The prefixes were dropped in 1994, with the type codes following suit the following year.

Depots

A - Edinburgh (New Street) and Biggar outstation
B - Bathgate
C - Baillieston
D - Galashiels
E - Kelso
F - Linlithgow
G - Dalkeith
H - Airdrie
J - Berwick-upon-Tweed
K - Peebles
L - Hawick and Jedburgh outstation
N - Livingston
S - Dunbar and North Berwick outstation
W - Musselburgh

I'm aware that Airdrie had two depots at one time, one of which was inherited from Baxter's and coded V - Airdrie Victoria. Also, very late in the day, Bathgate was replaced by an additional depot in Livingston - Centrex, which was coded Cx.

(Any additions and corrections happily received, as I've compiled this from memory.)

 

[nw1]

Crosville had a 3 digit prefix then fleet number which was

First alpha character type of vehicle
Second alpha character, code for manufacturer or type of chassis
Third alpha character was manufacturer of the engine
Then fleet number

For example, ENL 896 was, Dual Purpose (E) Leyland National (N) Leyland, engine (L), 896 fleet number.

Here's more

Crosville - Fleet Numbering

There were four methods used by Crosville to identify vehicles:-

www.crosville.org

I remember that London Country used "SNB" for Nationals and "AN" for Atlanteans. "Standard National Bus" for the former?

 

[MotCO]

I remember that London Country used "SNB" for Nationals and "AN" for Atlanteans. "Standard National Bus" for the former?

I suspect it was 'Short', because they also had LNBs, presumably 'Long'.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I suspect it was 'Short', because they also had LNBs, presumably 'Long'.

Yep - the first 70 were full 11.3m examples IIRC. Then they settled on 10.3m variants with the SNB (or SNC for dual purpose versions) for subsequent deliveries.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Yep - the first 70 were full 11.3m examples IIRC. Then they settled on 10.3m variants with the SNB (or SNC for dual purpose versions) for subsequent deliveries.

I remember that London Country used "SNB" for Nationals and "AN" for Atlanteans. "Standard National Bus" for the former?

London Country inherited and effectively carried on with the LT system of numbering, inventing their own type codes as new models came into the fleet. So the inherited RT, RF, RML, RMC, RCL (etc etc) were joined by SMA, SMW, RP, AN and later RB, RS, and various others. Similarly the same system of garage codes and running number plates was carried on - I think right up to the split into quarters and then privatisation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

London Country inherited and effectively carried on with the LT system of numbering, inventing their own type codes as new models came into the fleet. So the inherited RT, RF, RML, RMC, RCL (etc etc) were joined by SMA, SMW, RP, AN and later RB, RS, and various others. Similarly the same system of garage codes and running number plates was carried on - I think right up to the split into quarters and then privatisation.

I may be mistaken but I think London Country North West, and the part of LCNE that became County Bus, continued with that LT derived numbering system for a few years after sale. London & Country possibly on some vehicles (?) whilst Kentish Bus (LCSE) dropped it very quickly after privatisation

Another curious one was that Crosville's numbering system was adopted by PMT after they'd bought the Crosville's Wirral and Chester operations

 

[Mark L]

I remember that London Country used "SNB" for Nationals and "AN" for Atlanteans. "Standard National Bus" for the former?

In various publications, authored by those with some inside knowledge of the subject, it is said that London Country used the “A” prefix to denote one man operated double deckers - hence the Daimler Fleetlines based at Godstone were AFs. I suspect that the LN/LNB/LNC codes initially signified Leyland National as (I believe) initially Leyland only offered the 11.3m version. When the 10.3m bus became available this became LC’s preferred type and adopted the SNB/SNC code with the “S” denoting short. Rather conveniently the “L” could be rebadged to describe a long vehicle.

The key feature of the LT (and LC) numbering scheme was that each class began at 1. Of the TfL contractors Go-Ahead London and Arriva still uses this approach. Many operators with alpha-numeric schemes had a unique number for each vehicle and applied a prefix to it - the current Metroline scheme also follows this practice.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In various publications, authored by those with some inside knowledge of the subject, it is said that London Country used the “A” prefix to denote one man operated double deckers - hence the Daimler Fleetlines based at Godstone were AFs. I suspect that the LN/LNB/LNC codes initially signified Leyland National as (I believe) initially Leyland only offered the 11.3m version. When the 10.3m bus became available this became LC’s preferred type and adopted the SNB/SNC code with the “S” denoting short. Rather conveniently the “L” could be rebadged to describe a long vehicle.

That makes a lot of sense

The key feature of the LT (and LC) numbering scheme was that each class began at 1.

With one odd exception... In the late 1970s when the Green Line fleet desperately needed upgrading, they leased a load of AEC Reliances from Kirkby Kingsforth. They were numbered in a series going, I think from 1 to 150 but the code would change depending on the bodywork. So you could have RS1-15 with Plaxton bodies followed by RB16-30 with Duple and then RS31-45 back with Plaxton, and being registered in similar reg series too.

 

[nw1]

Yep - the first 70 were full 11.3m examples IIRC. Then they settled on 10.3m variants with the SNB (or SNC for dual purpose versions) for subsequent deliveries.

Most of Guildford's Nationals were newer examples, so that would figure them all being SNB.

I do remember, for whatever reason, the London Country Guildford depot had overwhelmingly relatively new Nationals (T reg) in, say, 1984 whereas Alder Valley had an older profile, with some L regs, the most common reg probably P, and the newest being S reg.
Some of the other depots that worked into Guildford had older Nationals, e.g. Weybridge (worked into Guildford on the 437) had one or two N reg though still some T reg.

 

[Mark L]

That makes a lot of sense


With one odd exception... In the late 1970s when the Green Line fleet desperately needed upgrading, they leased a load of AEC Reliances from Kirkby Kingsforth. They were numbered in a series going, I think from 1 to 150 but the code would change depending on the bodywork. So you could have RS1-15 with Plaxton bodies followed by RB16-30 with Duple and then RS31-45 back with Plaxton, and being registered in similar reg series too.

I’d overlooked that! To contradict my own assertion the Bristol lags in the LC fleet comprised two seperate classes in a single numbering sequence too. The first 23 eight foot wide buses formed the BL class. They were followed by 44 7’6” buses which were numbered BN24 - 67.

Back to the coaches - the R in the class code denoted Reliance and the second letter signified the town in which the bodywork as built. B for Blackpool (Duple) and S for Scarborough (Plaxton).

 

[nw1]

London Country inherited and effectively carried on with the LT system of numbering, inventing their own type codes as new models came into the fleet. So the inherited RT, RF, RML, RMC, RCL (etc etc) were joined by SMA, SMW, RP, AN and later RB, RS, and various others. Similarly the same system of garage codes and running number plates was carried on - I think right up to the split into quarters and then privatisation.

Yes, I remember the running number plates... in fact I noticed them on London Country first, before later noticing LT vehicles also had them.

GF for Guildford, LH for Leatherhead, WY for Weybridge and DS for (I think) Dorking were the ones I saw.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

WY for Weybridge

WY was actually Addlestone depot (those yes, it did derive from Weybridge).

Stagecoach London still apply depot codes to vehicles e.g. PD Plumstead, BK Barking and TB Bromley - the T in Bromley was apparently Tilling Bromley, along with TL Tilling Lewisham (though it was Catford) and TC Tilling Croydon. RATP also persisted with depot codes but think that may have ceased in First ownership?

Back to the coaches - the R in the class code denoted Reliance and the second letter signified the town in which the bodywork as built. B for Blackpool (Duple) and S for Scarborough (Plaxton).

Every day's a school day. I'd wondered what the significance was! Cheers for that

 

[PeterC]

WY was actually Addlestone depot (those yes, it did derive from Weybridge).

Stagecoach London still apply depot codes to vehicles e.g. PD Plumstead, BK Barking and TB Bromley - the T in Bromley was apparently Tilling Bromley, along with TL Tilling Lewisham (though it was Catford) and TC Tilling Croydon. RATP also persisted with depot codes but think that may have ceased in First ownership?

Every day's a school day. I'd wondered what the significance was! Cheers for that

I have seen depot codes on Arriva buses in London too.

Another, defunct, depot code curiosity was RD for Hornchurch. This was originally Romford but was renamed when the new garage in North Street (NS) was opened. This was as I recall, officially North Street (Romford). This left the Green Line garage (RE) with the name Romford

 

[Mark L]

Most of Guildford's Nationals were newer examples, so that would figure them all being SNB.

I do remember, for whatever reason, the London Country Guildford depot had overwhelmingly relatively new Nationals (T reg) in, say, 1984 whereas Alder Valley had an older profile, with some L regs, the most common reg probably P, and the newest being S reg.
Some of the other depots that worked into Guildford had older Nationals, e.g. Weybridge (worked into Guildford on the 437) had one or two N reg though still some T reg.

Guildford and Addlestone were both late recipients of Leyland Nationals - their Green Line routes had received RPs to replace RMCs in 1972 and other single deck requirements continued to be largely met by Merlins (see below) and Swifts until 1979. Guildford received the last National delivered to London Country - SNB543 - in December 1979.

Alder Valley’s last Leyland Nationals were delivered in April 1978.

(Nb - the Merlins were actually Swifts as well but LT decided otherwise!)

 

[DGP]

I've been researching Liverpool Corporation buses and trams recently and noted a quirky practise on some bus routes from the 1950s onwards. There were 2 main routes buses could take through the City Centre to get to or from the Pier Head Bus Station, either going via Church Street or going via Dale Street. Some services going via Church Street were given a 'C' suffix route number and some via Dale Street were given a 'D' suffix. This resulted in some services only having a suffixed route number such as 82D with any corresponding "main" route number.

Another practise I've noted is how unhelpful timetables could be. For instance, Liverpool's 44 tram service ran from the Pier Head to Lower Lane (or beyond to the factories at Gillmoss or Kirkby) but a "supplementary" service ran in the evening peaks starting from Great Crosshall Street which was some way off the main route. The 1948 timetable says that journeys started from this point between 4:30 pm and 6:30 pm but gave no indication of actual times or frequencies. You just had to know, I guess.

 

[Steve440]

Another practise I've noted is how unhelpful timetables could be. For instance, Liverpool's 44 tram service ran from the Pier Head to Lower Lane (or beyond to the factories at Gillmoss or Kirkby) but a "supplementary" service ran in the evening peaks starting from Great Crosshall Street which was some way off the main route. The 1948 timetable says that journeys started from this point between 4:30 pm and 6:30 pm but gave no indication of actual times or frequencies. You just had to know, I guess.

I should imagine that as with most tram routes in those days that they would be so frequent that you wouldn't need a timetable, there would always be one in sight!

 

[Mark L]

WY was actually Addlestone depot (those yes, it did derive from Weybridge).

Stagecoach London still apply depot codes to vehicles e.g. PD Plumstead, BK Barking and TB Bromley - the T in Bromley was apparently Tilling Bromley, along with TL Tilling Lewisham (though it was Catford) and TC Tilling Croydon. RATP also persisted with depot codes but think that may have ceased in First London ownership

In his book “London Tranport Garages” Ken Glazier notes that the original Addlestone garage actually comprised a rented space at the Weymann works. This replaced an earlier garage in Walton on Thames. When the LT built garage opened in Addlestone it retained the WY code.

Most of the London operators still apply garage codes to some degree or another. As for their origins a in addition to those that refer back to Tilling operations some recent sites also acknowledge the operator. QB (Battersea) relates to its original use by Limebourne which was owned by Q-Drive, WK ((Hounslow Heath) was originally Westlink’s base and AH (Brentford) was Armchair.

For many years after Westlink was acquired by London United it used HH (which older readers will still think of as Hemel Hempstead) but TfL always used WK. Stagecoach uses LI for Lea Interchange but TfL uses HO (which is derived from Hackney Olympic).

 

[Cesarcollie]

In his book “London Tranport Garages” Ken Glazier notes that the original Addlestone garage actually comprised a rented space at the Weymann works. This replaced an earlier garage in Walton on Thames. When the LT built garage opened in Addlestone it retained the WY code.

Most of the London operators still apply garage codes to some degree or another. As for their origins a in addition to those that refer back to Tilling operations some recent sites also acknowledge the operator. QB (Battersea) relates to its original use by Limebourne which was owned by Q-Drive, WK ((Hounslow Heath) was originally Westlink’s base and AH (Brentford) was Armchair.

For many years after Westlink was acquired by London United it used HH (which older readers will still think of as Hemel Hempstead) but TfL always used WK. Stagecoach uses LI for Lea Interchange but TfL uses HO (which is derived from Hackney Olympic).

Yes and certainly garage codes are still used internally in operator/TfL comms etc. New ones have been invented for new operator/garages, but the original ‘red Bus’ sites still all use their longstanding LT codes as far as I know.

 

[Statto]

I've been researching Liverpool Corporation buses and trams recently and noted a quirky practise on some bus routes from the 1950s onwards. There were 2 main routes buses could take through the City Centre to get to or from the Pier Head Bus Station, either going via Church Street or going via Dale Street. Some services going via Church Street were given a 'C' suffix route number and some via Dale Street were given a 'D' suffix. This resulted in some services only having a suffixed route number such as 82D with any corresponding "main" route number.

Another practise I've noted is how unhelpful timetables could be. For instance, Liverpool's 44 tram service ran from the Pier Head to Lower Lane (or beyond to the factories at Gillmoss or Kirkby) but a "supplementary" service ran in the evening peaks starting from Great Crosshall Street which was some way off the main route. The 1948 timetable says that journeys started from this point between 4:30 pm and 6:30 pm but gave no indication of actual times or frequencies. You just had to know, I guess.

The practice of using C & D suffixes for Pier Head routes in Liverpool went on up until deregulation, of course there were exceptions, oh & the 82 was 82C not 82D, there was an 82, & 82A but they were industrial services.

The was also the practice of using E suffix for short journeys, for example 15D Pier Head - Tower Hill became 15E when operating Tower Hill or Pier Head to Gillmoss, & a lot of other areas used the E suffix for short journeys too.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I've been researching Liverpool Corporation buses and trams recently and noted a quirky practise on some bus routes from the 1950s onwards. There were 2 main routes buses could take through the City Centre to get to or from the Pier Head Bus Station, either going via Church Street or going via Dale Street. Some services going via Church Street were given a 'C' suffix route number and some via Dale Street were given a 'D' suffix. This resulted in some services only having a suffixed route number such as 82D with any corresponding "main" route number.

'D' is still used for variant routes via Dale Street - which I think is why short workings ending at the depot are suffixed with 'E' in Liverpool rather than the D-for-depot that seems to be more normal elsewhere.

The 'C' suffix isn't used very much (maybe on some 86s?) but Church Street is now fully pedestrianised so no longer needs to mean via Church Street.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2026 ==

The practice of using C & D suffixes for Pier Head routes in Liverpool went on up until deregulation, of course there were exceptions, oh & the 82 was 82C not 82D, there was an 82, & 82A but they were industrial services.

The was also the practice of using E suffix for short journeys, for example 15D Pier Head - Tower Hill became 15E when operating Tower Hill or Pier Head to Gillmoss, & a lot of other areas used the E suffix for short journeys too.

Beaten to it...

 

[Statto]

The 86C is Liverpool One - Hope University, it does a loop in Childwall.

 

[nw1]

Guildford and Addlestone were both late recipients of Leyland Nationals - their Green Line routes had received RPs to replace RMCs in 1972 and other single deck requirements continued to be largely met by Merlins (see below) and Swifts until 1979. Guildford received the last National delivered to London Country - SNB543 - in December 1979.

Ah yes, they had some V-regs, the EPDxxxV series, remember that now.

Alder Valley’s last Leyland Nationals were delivered in April 1978.

Presumably the TPExxxS series.

 

[Roger1973]

the T in Bromley was apparently Tilling Bromley, along with TL Tilling Lewisham (though it was Catford) and TC Tilling Croydon.

Yes, The current Catford garage was built by the London General, and given garage code AN (when their sequence of garage codes was alphabetical) when it opened in 1914, but the garage was requisitioned by the War Department as an army vehicle maintenance site in 1915. (see photo - not mine or my Flickr account - here) I have an idea that there were some manhole covers inside the garage marked 'LGOC' when I visited for an open day some years back.

After the 1914-18 war, there was an agreement between General and Tillings to divide territory, and Tillings ended up with Catford, Bromley (opened in 1924, but General had planned it during the war) and Croydon (also built by the General), with Tillings moving their buses from some garage sites closer to central London and from Lewisham.

I understand that the Lewisham garage building continued to be used by Tillings for some years (I have an idea that this was for vans / lorries used for newspaper distribution contracts but can't find a reference.) It is visible (marked 88a, with entrance from Molesworth Street and another from Salisbury Yard) on the 1949 OS map. I don't remember it being there, but it may have lasted until demolition started for the (Riverdale) shopping centre in the mid 70s.

Yes and certainly garage codes are still used internally in operator/TfL comms etc. New ones have been invented for new operator/garages, but the original ‘red Bus’ sites still all use their longstanding LT codes as far as I know.

Yes - all LT garages have a garage code on paper and in TFL systems, whether the buses carry them or not. Robert Munster's 'London Bus Routes' website has a page listing all that are current.

And broadly speaking, yes, former 'red bus' garages continue to use their LT era garage codes, with slight complication at Edgware, Fulwell and Ash Grove where the site has been split, and one operator has a new code.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Yes, The current Catford garage was built by the London General, and given garage code AN (when their sequence of garage codes was alphabetical) when it opened in 1914, but the garage was requisitioned by the War Department as an army vehicle maintenance site in 1915. (see photo - not mine or my Flickr account - here) I have an idea that there were some manhole covers inside the garage marked 'LGOC' when I visited for an open day some years back.

After the 1914-18 war, there was an agreement between General and Tillings to divide territory, and Tillings ended up with Catford, Bromley (opened in 1924, but General had planned it during the war) and Croydon (also built by the General), with Tillings moving their buses from some garage sites closer to central London and from Lewisham.

I understand that the Lewisham garage building continued to be used by Tillings for some years (I have an idea that this was for vans / lorries used for newspaper distribution contracts but can't find a reference.) It is visible (marked 88a, with entrance from Molesworth Street and another from Salisbury Yard) on the 1949 OS map. I don't remember it being there, but it may have lasted until demolition started for the (Riverdale) shopping centre in the mid 70s.



Yes - all LT garages have a garage code on paper and in TFL systems, whether the buses carry them or not. Robert Munster's 'London Bus Routes' website has a page listing all that are current.

And broadly speaking, yes, former 'red bus' garages continue to use their LT era garage codes, with slight complication at Edgware, Fulwell and Ash Grove where the site has been split, and one operator has a new code.

And thus TF has nothing to do with Tillings but is the Transport UK half of Fulwell (as opposed to the ex London United, now First, half coded FW). And history still plays its part as that code was allocated when it was Tellings Fulwell…..before it became NX then Abellio and now Transport UK.

 

[Statto]

Looking at an old 761 Blackpool - Liverpool timetable, the 23.00 from Liverpool to Preston (last service of the day), no passengers could board the service after Tarleton, is there any more of these examples?

Ribble L104 230684.pdf

drive.google.com

Also note the stopping restrictions the service had.

 

[Mark L]

Looking at an old 761 Blackpool - Liverpool timetable, the 23.00 from Liverpool to Preston (last service of the day), no passengers could board the service after Tarleton, is there any more of these examples?

Ribble L104 230684.pdf

drive.google.com

Also note the stopping restrictions the service had.

There are a few services that are “set down only” beyond a certain point on the route. In practice I suspect that once the last passenger gas got off the bus just heads straight for the depot. I’m not sure that this is in strict compliance with the letter of the law (as it’s not running the registered timetable, unless such eventualities are catered for in the registration) but clearly makes sense.

 

[TheSel]

There are a few services that are “set down only” beyond a certain point on the route. In practice I suspect that once the last passenger gas got off the bus just heads straight for the depot. I’m not sure that this is in strict compliance with the letter of the law (as it’s not running the registered timetable, unless such eventualities are catered for in the registration) but clearly makes sense.

Absolutely. And in this particular example, I very strongly suggest that in the absence of any passengers requiring to alight in Much Hoole, Walmer Bridge or Longton, the vehicle would have headed back to Preston directly along the A59, rather than 'round the houses', saving not only the driver, but also the Preston bound passengers at least ten minutes. Rather like today's situation comparing routes of the 2 with the X2 between Tarleton and Preston.

[As an aside, I love the notion of "the last passenger gas" getting off!!! We've all been grateful for that on lates ]

With reference to the "set down only" practice, I've recently come across this one for GM Buses '2: Mold - Ruthin' service.

This link from BusTimes includes the wonderful footnote: "Customers can ask the driver to get off at any of the stops on route once on board". I suspect it means the service is set-down only, but I can't help wondering whether this means the service becomes self-drive from that point once the driver has complied with the request and alighted!

(picture of relevant section below)

 

[markymark2000]

With reference to the "set down only" practice, I've recently come across this one for GM Buses '2: Mold - Ruthin' service.

This link from BusTimes includes the wonderful footnote: "Customers can ask the driver to get off at any of the stops on route once on board". I suspect it means the service is set-down only, but I can't help wondering whether this means the service becomes self-drive from that point once the driver has complied with the request and alighted!

(picture of relevant section below)

I don't think anyone has actually worked out how the 2 is meant to operate yet as it's beyond the operators and authorities basic capabilities to provide any information (Denbighshire council who tenders the route still shows the old operator and GM buses hasn't posted any timetable yet for the service). Not helped by the fact that because Traveline Cymrus journey planner is rubbish and can't handle properly showing set down only, they just refuse to include any stop details if it's set down only or on request, so unless you are in the know, how are you meant to know where it is set down only?

 

[Thames99]

Talking of setting down only there is a much more recent example that comes to mind. A few years ago the Sandbanks ferry was out of action for many weeks. Route 50 buses from Swanage to Bournemouth had to travel via Corfe and Wareham, but a service was also maintained from Swanage to the ferry mainly to serve Studland. The final service of the day coming from Wareham to Swanage then travelled on to Studland and the ferry setting down, only if passengers were already on board. If no-one was on the bus on arrival at Swanage it would be terminated there.

 

[Mark L]

Absolutely. And in this particular example, I very strongly suggest that in the absence of any passengers requiring to alight in Much Hoole, Walmer Bridge or Longton, the vehicle would have headed back to Preston directly along the A59, rather than 'round the houses', saving not only the driver, but also the Preston bound passengers at least ten minutes. Rather like today's situation comparing routes of the 2 with the X2 between Tarleton and Preston.

[As an aside, I love the notion of "the last passenger gas" getting off!!! We've all been grateful for that on lates ]

With reference to the "set down only" practice, I've recently come across this one for GM Buses '2: Mold - Ruthin' service.

This link from BusTimes includes the wonderful footnote: "Customers can ask the driver to get off at any of the stops on route once on board". I suspect it means the service is set-down only, but I can't help wondering whether this means the service becomes self-drive from that point once the driver has complied with the request and alighted!

(picture of relevant section below)

View attachment 197936

My interpretation of this was that you could ask the driver to get off but there was no guarantee that your request would be granted. The omnibus equivalent of the Hotel California “You can check out any time you want but you can never leave”.