Ways of improving Purley-Crawley corridor local services?

[renegademaster]

For very local services, theirs bus services, Redhill - Purley has the 405, it's frequent enough but Brighton Road has pretty much permanent traffic that makes it slow. Redhill - Crawley also has local buses that share the problem of being painfully slow but with worse frequencies. I can't think of any easy bus priority schemes you could do that wouldn't be political suicide.

The train is quicker but most stations only get 30 minute intervals(that often become worse when one of the Thameslinks inevitably gets cancelled ) with weird skip stop patterns that make journeys not to London awkward.

What would be the issue with making all the Redhill line services all stations? Guessing people would moan at increased journey times to London and Gatwick. Some places could probably justify a station like Hooley/Netherene but again, will slow things down and be very expensive.

 

[nw1]

Not a local but I've had some interest in this area in the past.

I guess Redhill itself will still want fast services to London.

Could you have a pattern where Redhill gets 2tph to London fast, and 4tph to London all stations to Purley with two of those 4tph being the Horsham stopper southbound calling at all stations except Earlswood and Salfords, and the other two maybe going as far as Three Bridges calling at all stations? That would be an easy to remember and simple stopping pattern.

Then the Redhill fast could be the Reigate, I guess. (Or does Redhill still get Brighton trains? I forget).

 

[Farigiraf]

Not a local but I've had some interest in this area in the past.

I guess Redhill itself will still want fast services to London.

Could you have a pattern where Redhill gets 2tph to London fast, and 4tph to London all stations to Purley with two of those 4tph being the Horsham stopper southbound calling at all stations except Earlswood and Salfords, and the other two maybe going as far as Three Bridges calling at all stations? That would be an easy to remember and simple stopping pattern.

Then the Redhill fast could be the Reigate, I guess. (Or does Redhill still get Brighton trains? I forget).

That's fairly similar to how it is now. Frequencies are already 4tph minimum at all stops along the route except for Earlswood and Salfords. Not too bad overall, but it is in the London commuter belt so I'm sure any improvements would increase ridership.

What you're proposing is to drop the Coulsdon South, Merstham and Purley calls from the Reigate-Victoria service, with the Horsham-Peterborough gaining an extra Purley call and the Three Bridges-Bedford gaining extra calls at Coulsdon South and Merstham - so largely a reshuffle.

Seems like a good idea and not too hard to implement. Only losers would be the ~35k passengers every year who travel from Merstham and Coulsdon South to Reigate, who would have to change at Redhill or take a slower bus instead.

 

[JonathanH]

Could you have a pattern where Redhill gets 2tph to London fast, and 4tph to London all stations to Purley with two of those 4tph being the Horsham stopper southbound calling at all stations except Earlswood and Salfords, and the other two maybe going as far as Three Bridges calling at all stations?

No. The Horsham doesn't have enough turnaround time at Horsham to be all stations in both directions, and it can't run slow line northbound at Purley. (It is all stations southbound in the morning peak when the Bedford to Three Bridges service doesn't run, and Redhill only gets 4tph from London, but it couldn't do that in both directions, not least because it leaves Horsham shortly after the Arun Valley train leaves.)

The current service provides connectivity for local journeys to Reigate, and quicker journeys to London Bridge / Gatwick Airport than would be the case if the two Thameslink services went all stops. It also means that the Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley have services to both Victoria and London Bridge.

That would be an easy to remember and simple stopping pattern.

I'm not sure that the stopping pattern is that difficult to understand at present.

Only losers would be the ~35k passengers every year who travel from Merstham and Coulsdon South to Reigate, who would have to change at Redhill or take a slower bus instead.

It makes sense to cater for that flow. There is also a fairly significant flow from Coulsdon South and Purley of people who want Victoria.

(Or does Redhill still get Brighton trains? I forget).

No. Only early on Sunday morning.

The train is quicker but most stations only get 30 minute intervals(that often become worse when one of the Thameslinks inevitably gets cancelled ) with weird skip stop patterns that make journeys not to London awkward.

It shouldn't be forgotten that Purley to Coulsdon has the Tattenham Corner service as well, that Coulsdon Town is better situated for the centre of Coulsdon, and Coulsdon South gets peak calls in the Bedford to Three Bridges service. Which other pairing doesn't have a frequent enough service for the local demand?

Redhill - Crawley also has local buses that share the problem of being painfully slow but with worse frequencies. I can't think of any easy bus priority schemes you could do that wouldn't be political suicide.

I agree they are slow because of deviations for East Surrey Hospital, Whitebushes and Horley, but there are now 8 buses an hour between Redhill and Crawley (2 x 400, 420, 460, 4 x 100), and 4 buses an hour between Redhill and Croydon.

 

[PGAT]

The current timetable is a good compromise. If you were to try and simplify the stopping patterns some links somewhere would be broken and would probably result in uneven intervals across the hour. Coulsdon Town is basically dead off-peak and Coulsdon South has seen plenty of growth so maybe that could justify 6tph all day otherwise I wouldn’t touch anything.

 

[izvor]

Agree with @JonathanH and @PGAT that the current service pattern is as close to ideal as you can get. Coulsdon South and Merstham get (all) 6tph in the peaks, and 4tph off-peak is adequate. Again, Earlswood and Salfords at 2tph is about right, and these stations get the extra 2tph Victorias in the peaks, as well as the 8bph mentioned above. These (the peak Vics) seem to be fairly lightly used as they are relatively slow (all stations, joining/splitting at Redhill) except when Thameslink is in meltdown - so quite often really!

As I suggested in another thread, it is Horley that I would say needs improvement, with restoration of the hourly fast Vics as a minimum, to match the 2tph peak extras that do run.

 

[Minstral25]

The best improvement would be to sort out the platforms at Reigate so a 12-car train can reverse in platform 1, so the Reigate to Victoria services can be 8-car during the off peak with busiest services extended to 12 in the peak. (Currently they reverse in Platform 2 which is limited to 4-car trains turning back due to signalling constraints).

If that's done the peak hours Gatwick extensions of the Victoria services can be removed (they hardly carry any passengers anyway) and Thameslink peak services can call all stations Horley to Coulsdon South (and reverse in the evenings). They can't currently as the Gatwick extensions fill the slots and removing them also means extended journey times from Reigate to Victoria can be removed due to removing the need to couple trains.

That would improve all services in the area and would be a lot cheaper than the platform 3 plan at Reigate.

 

[JonathanH]

The best improvement would be to sort out the platforms at Reigate so a 12-car train can reverse in platform 1, so the Reigate to Victoria services can be 8-car during the off peak with busiest services extended to 12 in the peak. (Currently they reverse in Platform 2 which is limited to 4-car trains turning back due to signalling constraints).

An interesting idea, but it would still need quite a bit of signalling and track work. 8-coach in platform 1 appears relatively easy but I guess it would need a facing crossover put in somewhere between the Croydon Road bridge and the existing trailing crossover, and maybe moving signal 23 back towards Redhill.

12-coach into platform 1 must be much more complex with the positioning of the existing pointwork and signals. Platform 1 is relatively narrow at the east end.

If that's done the peak hours Gatwick extensions of the Victoria services can be removed (they hardly carry any passengers anyway) and Thameslink peak services can call all stations Horley to Coulsdon South (and reverse in the evenings). They can't currently as the Gatwick extensions fill the slots and removing them also means extended journey times from Reigate to Victoria can be removed due to removing the need to couple trains.

I suspect that people at Earlswood and Salfords would be upset at the removal of Victoria trains, but overall it could speed things up a bit. The catch is that the existing Reigate times can't really be flexed much because of where the GWR trains are in the timetable.

The Bedford to Three Bridges services already call all stations South Croydon to Three Bridges in the afternoon peak (although the northbound pattern is admittedly a bit more complex).

That would improve all services in the area and would be a lot cheaper than the platform 3 plan at Reigate.

Some people end up with slower services. I can't see the platform 3 plan ever happening, but I'm not entirely sure there is any impetus to find funding for any other sort of change either.

On the one hand, the removal of splitting provides an operational gain at Redhill, which could well be worthwhile. On the other, the 4-car formations tend to deal with demand adequately for most of the day, perhaps less so for a few hours on Saturday mornings.

 

[Minstral25]

An interesting idea, but it would still need quite a bit of signalling and track work. 8-coach in platform 1 appears relatively easy but I guess it would need a facing crossover put in somewhere between the Croydon Road bridge and the existing trailing crossover, and maybe moving signal 23 back towards Redhill.

12-coach into platform 1 must be much more complex with the positioning of the existing pointwork and signals. Platform 1 is relatively narrow at the east end.

Nothing is easy but it is the simplest solution - and I think your suggestions would work. No point in doing unless you make it 12-car as you would need to still join trains up at Redhill otherwise.

I suspect that people at Earlswood and Salfords would be upset at the removal of Victoria trains, but overall it could speed things up a bit. The catch is that the existing Reigate times can't really be flexed much because of where the GWR trains are in the timetable.

The Bedford to Three Bridges services already call all stations South Croydon to Three Bridges in the afternoon peak (although the northbound pattern is admittedly a bit more complex).

Have you looked at recent passenger numbers on the extensions. They are very low. The stations (Earlswood and Salfords) would also get two extra Thameslink's per hour in the peaks instead. It also means Reigate passengers get a better deal as they currently sit in Redhill for 6 or 7 minutes for an attachment that is often delayed leaving.

Some people end up with slower services. I can't see the platform 3 plan ever happening, but I'm not entirely sure there is any impetus to find funding for any other sort of change either.

On the one hand, the removal of splitting provides an operational gain at Redhill, which could well be worthwhile. On the other, the 4-car formations tend to deal with demand adequately for most of the day, perhaps less so for a few hours on Saturday mornings.

Funding is always the issue, this is a speculative thread after all. But who ends up with slower services? Even the Salfords and Earlswood customers for Victoria would be able to use Peterborough Thameslink trains with a cross-platform connection at East Croydon, which would probably mean a faster overall time to Victoria.

Off peak 4-cars do have standing by Coulsdon South or Purley during the day and evening.