Northern’s New Trains. Thoughts on What Manufacturers Northern Will Choose?

[Class 323 Fan]

I think they have just invested and modernised a factory in Hungary

I am fairly sure some of the flirts in UK were assembled in Hungary.

I don't see a problem with them being made there, plus this would be there first large UK order, as most of the other orders were only for a few units.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If they were offered to build the MMUs, they most probably would build a factory in the UK, as its such a big order, I'm sure they will be up to do that

Framework contracts don't guarantee repeat orders.
Rolling stock procurement history is littered with apparently large orders which were descoped/cancelled along the way.
Siemens' LU order for the Piccadilly Line which prompted the build of the Goole factory is like that, because TfL hasn't the funds to give repeat orders for other deep level lines.
The HS2 order is looking sick as well now, with all the descoping of the HS2b network.

Stadler has significant production facilities in Germany, Poland and Hungary as well as its base in Switzerland.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think they have just invested and modernised a factory in Hungary

I am fairly sure some of the flirts in UK were assembled in Hungary.

The 777 build was split between Stadler factories in Switzerland and Poland I believe. Odd numbered units in one and even numbered units in the other, but I forget which was which.

 

[dgl]

Framework contracts don't guarantee repeat orders.
Rolling stock procurement history is littered with apparently large orders which were descoped/cancelled along the way.
Siemens' LU order for the Piccadilly Line which prompted the build of the Goole factory is like that, because TfL hasn't the funds to give repeat orders for other deep level lines.
The HS2 order is looking sick as well now, with all the descoping of the HS2b network.

Stadler has significant production facilities in Germany, Poland and Hungary as well as its base in Switzerland.

And the ex. Vossloh works in Spain, of course.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

The 777 build was split between Stadler factories in Switzerland and Poland I believe. Odd numbered units in one and even numbered units in the other, but I forget which was which.

I don’t see why they can’t be built at the same place the 777s were, if Stadler were chosen of course.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don’t see why they can’t be built at the same place the 777s were, if Stadler were chosen of course.

The politicians will be falling over themselves to award the contract with UK assembly.
Unlike private sector franchise orders, public sector GBR TOCs will be subject to political interference at the highest level.

 

[bahnause]

The politicians will be falling over themselves to award the contract with UK assembly.
Unlike private sector franchise orders, public sector GBR TOCs will be subject to political interference at the highest level.

Doesn't the tender fall under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules?

 

[Halish Railway]

Doesn't the tender fall under World Trade Organization (WTO) rules?

No. In the United States for example rolling stock must be manufactured internally unless it is of a specification that has not been built in the US before or if no domestic manufacturer offers it (200 mph trains being the obvious example). This is an Obama-era directive introduced to reinvigorate the economy after the financial crisis.

 

[NCT]

Do UK procurement laws permit such protectionist practices?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do UK procurement laws permit such protectionist practices?

Probably not, but if the DfT wanted to it's easy enough for them to detail a specification in such a way that only one manufacturer would be able to score highly against it.

 

[Snow1964]

Probably not, but if the DfT wanted to it's easy enough for them to detail a specification in such a way that only one manufacturer would be able to score highly against it.

Although that idea becomes a licence to print money for the one company that can meet the specs, as effectively create an uncompetitive monopoly.

Rather stupid and pointless and time wasting to go through months (maybe couple of years) running a tender if only one supplier will be eligible.

 

[Stephen42]

Probably not, but if the DfT wanted to it's easy enough for them to detail a specification in such a way that only one manufacturer would be able to score highly against it.

They wouldn't want to structure to eliminate some manufacturers. In other UK public sector procurement social value scoring is often used to encourage work from the local area. How local counts as local is up to the company doing the procurement. Examples of commitments bidders might make including creating X many jobs in the requested area, setting up Y apprenticeship places or Z capital investment in plants.

A company not proposing to use UK facilities would score zero on that, they could still win but they will have to put in a much better bid than their competitors in other areas.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well here's hoping that decisions are made as soon as possible. I was thinking about this subject last when when my Manchester Picc - Chester 156 was called into action to rescue another 156 that had given up at Ashley. Many of these older DMUs running around are starting to really show their age.

 

[Snow1964]

Well here's hoping that decisions are made as soon as possible. I was thinking about this subject last when when my Manchester Picc - Chester 156 was called into action to rescue another 156 that had given up at Ashley. Many of these older DMUs running around are starting to really show their age.

The 156s are 37-39 years old.

Generally older than the first generation DMUs of late 1950s managed.

Actually would struggle to find a first generation DMU that reached 37 years old, and even harder to think of one that got to 39 years old without a replacement on order. Currently there is no actual replacement order, just an intention.

 

[Bantamzen]

The 156s are 37-39 years old.

Generally older than the first generation DMUs of late 1950s managed.

Actually would struggle to find a first generation DMU that reached 37 years old, and even harder to think of one that got to 39 years old without a replacement on order. Currently there is no actual replacement order, just an intention.

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when they first came into service, I was in my late teens (I'm 56 this year )

 

[sprinterguy]

The 156s are 37-39 years old.

Generally older than the first generation DMUs of late 1950s managed.

Actually would struggle to find a first generation DMU that reached 37 years old, and even harder to think of one that got to 39 years old without a replacement on order. Currently there is no actual replacement order, just an intention.

Some class 101 sets made it to around 45 years old in the North West of course, and class 117s to around 40 years in Scotland and on the Marston Vale, but that was a limited number of survivors operating on a restricted number of routes and not the squadron fleet deployment that we can anticipate from the Sprinter classes across the North for at least the next five years or so. You're quite right that even the most long-lived of the first gen DMU classes were seeing their total fleet strength seriously eroded within the 30-35 year bracket.

 

[bahnause]

They wouldn't want to structure to eliminate some manufacturers. In other UK public sector procurement social value scoring is often used to encourage work from the local area. How local counts as local is up to the company doing the procurement. Examples of commitments bidders might make including creating X many jobs in the requested area, setting up Y apprenticeship places or Z capital investment in plants.

A company not proposing to use UK facilities would score zero on that, they could still win but they will have to put in a much better bid than their competitors in other areas.

If the procurement is done under WTO rules, this might be very thin ice. Well-defined, non-discriminatory social value criteria linked to broader economic/social well-being might be generally permissible, but it is a complex area requiring careful alignment. The chance of getting away with this is naturally higher if interest in a contract is limited to the local area anyway. With a contract of this size in a highly competitive industry, the risk of delays due to objections from unsuccessful bidders is much higher.

 

[Prime586]

I think they have just invested and modernised a factory in Hungary

I am fairly sure some of the flirts in UK were assembled in Hungary.

Stadler's main factory for FLIRT assembly is Bussnang in Switzerland, though for the GA class 755s all the units after the first 3 pilot production units used for testing were assembled at Siedlce in Poland. The FLIRT bodyshells are built at Bussnang and Stadler Szolnok in Hungary (which only produces bodyshells and fabricated welded structures).

The 777 build was split between Stadler factories in Switzerland and Poland I believe. Odd numbered units in one and even numbered units in the other, but I forget which was which.

The first three pilot production units used for testing were built at the old Stadler plant at Altenrhein in Switzerland. The production line was then moved to the new plant at St. Margrethen and the even numbered units from 004 were built there (as were all the /1s) . The odd numbered /0s from 005 onwards were built at Siedlce in Poland.

The bodyshells came from Stadler Szolnok in Hungary, and tbe bogies came from Stadler Valencia in Spain.

 

[Dspatula]

Doesn't the order effectively specify 23 metre car lengths? As far as I'm aware Stadler don't offer that length, as I assume the wheelbase would be too long on a design using Jakob's bogies?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't the order effectively specify 23 metre car lengths? As far as I'm aware Stadler don't offer that length, as I assume the wheelbase would be too long on a design using Jakob's bogies?

Stadler also offer more conventional looking designs. The new sleepers being built for Scandinavia are units with standard 26.4m bogied vehicles, for instance. Alternatively they could submit a noncompliant bid, sometimes companies do this.

In essence the FLIRT platform is a kit of standard parts from which you can build more or less whatever the customer wants, based on them having cut their teeth on Swiss narrow gauge lines which have very specific requirements.

 

[Snow1964]

Didn't see this coming, but Danish Railways has just announced a €3bn (so massive) new train order with a Siemens-Stadler consortium.

But also shows focus of this thread, assuming only one train builder per lot might be misplaced

Not sure how this affects factory production slots, but at very least isn't going to make it any easier for Northern to get quick build dates

Siemens-Stadler Consortium Assigned EUR3 Billion Automated Trains Order in Denmark​

Published on 02/06/2026 at 09:14 am GMT
MT Newswires

Siemens-Stadler Consortium Assigned EUR3 Billion Automated Trains Order in Denmark

Siemens and Stadler Rail's consortium received a framework contract for 226 fully automated four-car trainsets from the Danish State Railways. The contract, valued at 3 billion euros for the...

uk.marketscreener.com

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Didn't see this coming, but Danish Railways has just announced a €3bn (so massive) new train order with a Siemens-Stadler consortium.

But also shows focus of this thread, assuming only one train builder per lot might be misplaced

Not sure how this affects factory production slots, but at very least isn't going to make it any easier for Northern to get quick build dates

Siemens-Stadler Consortium Assigned EUR3 Billion Automated Trains Order in Denmark

Siemens and Stadler Rail's consortium received a framework contract for 226 fully automated four-car trainsets from the Danish State Railways. The contract, valued at 3 billion euros for the...

uk.marketscreener.com

Would northern consider this? As if these trains are built by Siemens in their factory, that could mean Stadler could still deliver on time, by building them in their factories in Europe. Or the other way round if Siemens was chosen